10 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Pretty much, the top 4 each year pretty much will prove that out...

2013 2014 2015 2016 2017

Winner Rebel Rebel Rebel Scum Scum

Runner-up Imperial Imperial Rebel Rebel Rebel

Top 4 Rebel Imperial Scum Imperial Scum

Top 4 Imperial Rebel Imperial Rebel Rebel

Forgetting 2012 worlds was winner Imperial, runner up Rebel, top 4 Rebel, Top 4 Imperial

19 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

And they'll still lose.

Do you think people choose not to take them because they dislike them? They choose not to take them because they're not competitive.

This isn't the case at the local level.

I have a second placing and a first placing at Q2 store championships this season using Imperials. Check what people are bringing in your local meta and build an Imperial list that can handle itself. The tools are there for Imps, and with practice it is totally possible.

I would recommend experimenting with TIE/SF and Defender lists, which are very solid. Alternatively, Kylo Ren on Decimator can go a long way if there are a lot of 2 ship build in your local meta.

I'm having a great time experimenting with high PS Imperial alpha strike lists. Tons of fun. As others have mentioned in this thread, they are severely underestimated.

20 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

And they'll still lose.

Do you think people choose not to take them because they dislike them? They choose not to take them because they're not competitive.

So you are basically saying people value winning more than they value playing something find interesting, fun, enjoyable.

Sounds to me like it's their own fault that people are upset imperials aren't at tournaments.

21 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Pretty much, the top 4 each year pretty much will prove that out...

2017

Scum

Rebel

Scum

Rebel

Empire, Not even Top 8

23 hours ago, Shadow345 said:

Take Imperials to a tournament.

The more people take them, the more will show up.

This might be a seemingly rational view in a simplistic way, but it is an uneducated one. Just because more of one faction's squads show up at a competition, it doesn't mean skill or dice variance alone will dictate winners. There are simply varied abilities tied to certain squads within factions.

23 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

And they'll still lose.

Do you think people choose not to take them because they dislike them? They choose not to take them because they're not competitive.

This.

Competitive players skilled in X-Wing can easily analyze ships and abilities vs. probable meta at said event and arrange a squad with the best chance of success to practice and take to events.

2 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

So you are basically saying people value winning more than they value playing something find interesting, fun, enjoyable.

Sounds to me like it's their own fault that people are upset imperials aren't at tournaments.

At a competition in which players take time from school/work and spend hard-earned cash to travel to and stay near, you better realize that they want to bring a squad that can be as competitive as possible within the ships and upgrades at their disposal. What competitive person would ever do anything to the contrary? Would a sports team head to a national or world competition with their favorite friends in the roster --who might be able to play the game casually but never at a high level-- or would they take the BEST players available? I'll go out on a limb here and admit some players at Worlds might just select a particular high-level competition and bring a squad for the simple joy regardless their ability to win, but this would be sheer folly if they also hoped to win any of the top prizes. Furthermore, you simply couldn't be a happy-go-lucky casual player and get to the Worlds level; getting to the level of a Worlds player means that you have already competed and done quite well locally.

Your seeming lack of ability to recognize basic competitive planning and preparation in any competitive life event is somewhat astounding.

23 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Pretty much, the top 4 each year pretty much will prove that out...

2013 2014 2015 2016 2017

Winner Rebel Rebel Rebel Scum Scum

Runner-up Imperial Imperial Rebel Rebel Rebel

Top 4 Rebel Imperial Scum Imperial Scum

Top 4 Imperial Rebel Imperial Rebel Rebel

Wow this is interesting. Since 2013 Imperials have never won. Since 2015 Imperials haven't made the top 2 slots. This year Imperials didn't make the top 4.

2 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

So you are basically saying people value winning more than they value playing something find interesting, fun, enjoyable.

Sounds to me like it's their own fault that people are upset imperials aren't at tournaments.

Well, to be fair, if you don't care the competitive aspect of the game, then balance shouldn't really matter at all. The only reason balance comes up as a discussion is because people care about being competitive and we can have fun while doing so. If it was just for fun there'd be no reason to be concerned about balance.

Wait...people think Imperials aren't competitive anymore?

What a crazy world.

On 16.5.2017 at 4:56 PM, Shadow345 said:

Take Imperials to a tournament.

The more people take them, the more will show up.

Yeah, but I like winning more than playing the evil empire ones. ;-)

2 hours ago, phild0 said:

Wait...people think Imperials aren't competitive anymore?

What a crazy world.

Well they are not doing so well in the competitions, so...

21 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

So you are basically saying people value winning more than they value playing something find interesting, fun, enjoyable.

Sounds to me like it's their own fault that people are upset imperials aren't at tournaments.

Shockingly yes, paying money to attend a competitive tournament with prizes which people value, makes many people want to win. Not all, certainly, and at any big tourney there will usually be a bunch of players with fun lists who just show up for the day to play some games and get their participation prize.

And Imperials certainly do have competitive lists at the moment (/sfs, Defenders and pocket aces/bombers using FCS and SYnc on the /sfs; and Deci/Phantom or Defender, basically).

But they are few, far between, and mostly don't cater to the traditional Imperial strengths.

22 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

So you are basically saying people value winning more than they value playing something find interesting, fun, enjoyable.

Sounds to me like it's their own fault that people are upset imperials aren't at tournaments.

So intentional losing is fun to you? Why bother than with competitive tournament play?
Besides, the elephant in the room for your argument is that the play experience with scum aces is very alike to imperial lists. The names are different and PTL is gone, which makes maneuvering more interesting as you only have one reposition move, but overall it still ace lists, it still alpha strikes like from missile bombers, it still bombing runs with K-Wings, etc
The imperial play experience is subpart, because the avaible lists are subpar and other factions offer the same play experience with more interesting lists.

I fall in love for the game based on Soontir Fel, but I most certainly can happily fly Fen Rau and Old Teroch for a similar play experience and enjoy building a better list while doing so.

True, Scum Aces have synergy, Imperial Aces right now do not have an easy nor effective way (Mindlink doesn't require a poorly manuverable ship to assign focus, as Ace fighters and super-freighters can). Imperials haven't ever had great synergy. Back when fat Han (complex synergy) and Whisper (raw great stats, save 1 crew) were on top, what happened? Whisper gets her power needed, Han? Nothing. His synergetic crew lives on through other ships. Yeah, Kallus and Rebel captive are OK, but they really haven't been added to with more hotness abilities.

Fenn is almost an Imperial Ace AND he has MindLink, which is awesome!! .....I would be a fool not to field him over Mr. Awesome/Fragile until Sabine/Miranda are canned. A fool I'd be - Yoda. ?

2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

So intentional losing is fun to you? Why bother than with competitive tournament play?
Besides, the elephant in the room for your argument is that the play experience with scum aces is very alike to imperial lists. The names are different and PTL is gone, which makes maneuvering more interesting as you only have one reposition move, but overall it still ace lists, it still alpha strikes like from missile bombers, it still bombing runs with K-Wings, etc
The imperial play experience is subpart, because the avaible lists are subpar and other factions offer the same play experience with more interesting lists.

I fall in love for the game based on Soontir Fel, but I most certainly can happily fly Fen Rau and Old Teroch for a similar play experience and enjoy building a better list while doing so.

This is actually a major reason I was kind of bummed at how conservative they were with the Protectorate dial - even when stressed, you still fly like soontir.

With mindlink, you have the potential to fly better then he could hope.

Feels a little weird, eh?

On 5/16/2017 at 0:06 PM, Darth Meanie said:

He means take them and set them up as a side board. Ya know, for display purposes.

Lol that's all they're good for.

On 5/16/2017 at 7:25 AM, thespaceinvader said:

And they'll still lose.

Do you think people choose not to take them because they dislike them? They choose not to take them because they're not competitive.

And yet I still won my tournament last weekend with them :). Granted, it's just a local tournament, not anything big, but I did play against 3 people that made day 2 at endor, one of which made the cut, so I was playing against skilled opponents at least

17 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Well they are not doing so well in the competitions, so...

There haven't been a ton of large competitive events since the nerfs. There were 3 system opens, and imperials made the cut in 2 of them. I think part of the issue with those though was they were DIRECTLY after the nerf, within the first week, so I feel many people may have simply dropped their palp/defender lists as a reaction and played something else instead (such as fenn mindlink) instead of figuring out something on relatively short notice for imperial. And they may not have set worlds on fire, but they DID make the cut at worlds, with palp no less, and there were quite a few more in day 2. Then the first store champ I saw reported had imperials with palpatine int he top 2 spots.

On 5/17/2017 at 10:28 AM, clanofwolves said:

Furthermore, you simply couldn't be a happy-go-lucky casual player and get to the Worlds level; getting to the level of a Worlds player means that you have already competed and done quite well locally.

You seem to think that to be at worlds you have to be a world class player and no one would go just for the experience. I hate to break this to you, but, some people do. In addition to that, you also don't have to win squat or even be halfway decent to go to worlds, you only need to buy a ticket.

Anyway

As far as the Empire's dilemma, I think that the Palp nerf and Defender nerf shook things up at the wrong time for them. With the sudden shakeup in the power of 2 of their best tools in the game during the competition cycle it left them trying to figure out what to do and what would be competitive. I'm sure there is some untapped combination that just hasn't been tried yet that will take the Empire by storm and bring them back to the top tables with the Rebels and Scum.

16 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

And yet I still won my tournament last weekend with them :). Granted, it's just a local tournament, not anything big, but I did play against 3 people that made day 2 at endor, one of which made the cut, so I was playing against skilled opponents at least.

They'll still lose... on average. SPecific individuals might win, but the majority will lose because at the moment imperials have vastly fewer competitive list options than everyone else and even those are tough to win with.

7 hours ago, CJKeys said:

You seem to think that to be at worlds you have to be a world class player and no one would go just for the experience. I hate to break this to you, but, some people do. In addition to that, you also don't have to win squat or even be halfway decent to go to worlds, you only need to buy a ticket.

Anyway

As far as the Empire's dilemma, I think that the Palp nerf and Defender nerf shook things up at the wrong time for them. With the sudden shakeup in the power of 2 of their best tools in the game during the competition cycle it left them trying to figure out what to do and what would be competitive. I'm sure there is some untapped combination that just hasn't been tried yet that will take the Empire by storm and bring them back to the top tables with the Rebels and Scum.

True you can be a casual player and just purchase a ticket to attend Worlds, I was speaking about the majority of players that go with the experience and intent of finishing in the top four of a tournament.

Anyway

It was a bad moment for the nerf true, but that it's really relevant as I cannot find any statistics or matrix that would support your claim that an Imperial squad that equals the output, mobility and automatic modifiers of the clearly defined current Scum and Rebel outliers simply is waiting in binders undiscovered.