If wrath gets destroyed by horns double tap in the end phase, and next round destroys horn. Who wins?

Is it still a draw?

This one is literally an issue directly addressed by the FAQ:

Quote

“Fel’s Wrath”

If Corran Horn destroys “Fel’s Wrath” at the start of a round’s End phase, “Fel’s Wrath” is not removed until the end of the following round’s Combat phase.

If Fel’s Wrath has used his ability and destroys the last enemy ship, the match ends in a draw as “winning the game” is checked at the end of the round.

Oh ya. I remember seeing that. Not sure why I asked. Probably had to do with 3am and not being able to sleep.

22 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

This one is literally an issue directly addressed by the FAQ:

So per tournament rules it would go to full-list final salvo in this instance as everything died.

11 hours ago, DraakRyuu said:

If wrath gets destroyed by horns double tap in the end phase, and next round destroys horn. Who wins?

Is it still a draw?

Apparently it can't be a draw as draws have been ruled to be impossible to obtain.

5 hours ago, StevenO said:

Apparently it can't be a draw as draws have been ruled to be impossible to obtain.

Well, this way of obtaining them certainly is, as it requires Fel's Wrath be put on the table somewhere.

56 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Well, this way of obtaining them certainly is, as it requires Fel's Wrath be put on the table somewhere.

Still is impossible to count as a draw. Remember all the controversy that said draws are impossible in X-Wing and thus there is absolutely no reason they should be included in scoring for any reason? The Fel's Wrath vs. Corran Horn interaction may not lead to an immediately clear victor but it can NOT lead to a draw.

2 hours ago, StevenO said:

Still is impossible to count as a draw. Remember all the controversy that said draws are impossible in X-Wing and thus there is absolutely no reason they should be included in scoring for any reason? The Fel's Wrath vs. Corran Horn interaction may not lead to an immediately clear victor but it can NOT lead to a draw.

I don't remember anyone ever claiming they were impossible, just that they were so rare that it wasn't worth legalising cheating to keep them.

9 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

I don't remember anyone ever claiming they were impossible, just that they were so rare that it wasn't worth legalising cheating to keep them.

Sometimes I can't tell when someone's being cheeky or sarcastic, but no, there are no draws in X-Wing anymore, they do not exist. If the game ends in what would be a draw, it goes to Final Salvo. Meaning if this scenario happens, you both roll a number of red dice equal to the sum of the printed attack values on your pilot cards. Whoever gets more hits and crits wins. If you tie, roll again until someone wins.

Unless of course you're just playing with friends on a coffee table, then draw all you want. Or decide by rock-paper-scissors!

14 minutes ago, Antilles01 said:

Sometimes I can't tell when someone's being cheeky or sarcastic, but no, there are no draws in X-Wing anymore, they do not exist. If the game ends in what would be a draw, it goes to Final Salvo. Meaning if this scenario happens, you both roll a number of red dice equal to the sum of the printed attack values on your pilot cards. Whoever gets more hits and crits wins. If you tie, roll again until someone wins.

I am aware; StevenO and I are just jabbing each other over the controversy that draws caused back before Final Salvo was a thing.

Yeah after I posted I did a double take at your name and avatar, I feel silly now.

7 hours ago, DR4CO said:

7 hours ago, Antilles01 said:

Sometimes I can't tell when someone's being cheeky or sarcastic, but no, there are no draws in X-Wing anymore, they do not exist. If the game ends in what would be a draw, it goes to Final Salvo. Meaning if this scenario happens, you both roll a number of red dice equal to the sum of the printed attack values on your pilot cards. Whoever gets more hits and crits wins. If you tie, roll again until someone wins.

I am aware; StevenO and I are just jabbing each other over the controversy that draws caused back before Final Salvo was a thing.

That's mostly it.

Personally, I've always thought that a Draw should occur with far more frequency as the difference in a couple points does not really show a winner. I mean if you have a 40 point ship and someone else has a 1 point upgrade on that same ship they are still nearly the same ship and if that's all that's left (or destroyed) does either side have a real significant advantage. To me Draws should have covered much of what had been modified wins, the "modified win" could have been expanded yet recognize the loser of the close game, and the full win would have been decisive game.

I've also seen intentional draws as being useful for improving the game. I'd also liked to have added an additional type of concession where the game MoV scoring was locked with the concession instead of requiring all of the conceding player's ships be destroyed; this would mean you don't need to waste time chasing around an 'unkillable' ship that also isn't going to threaten the victory.

5 hours ago, StevenO said:

That's mostly it.

Personally, I've always thought that a Draw should occur with far more frequency as the difference in a couple points does not really show a winner. I mean if you have a 40 point ship and someone else has a 1 point upgrade on that same ship they are still nearly the same ship and if that's all that's left (or destroyed) does either side have a real significant advantage. To me Draws should have covered much of what had been modified wins, the "modified win" could have been expanded yet recognize the loser of the close game, and the full win would have been decisive game.

I've also seen intentional draws as being useful for improving the game. I'd also liked to have added an additional type of concession where the game MoV scoring was locked with the concession instead of requiring all of the conceding player's ships be destroyed; this would mean you don't need to waste time chasing around an 'unkillable' ship that also isn't going to threaten the victory.

Yup... That was basically the system I wanted implemented.

Win = Win by 34+ points = 4 points

Modified Win = Win by 13-33 points = 3 points

Draw = Within 12 points = 2 points

Modified Loss = Lose by 13-33 points = 1 point

Loss = Lose by 34+ points = 0 points

You could even go ahead and make a full win with 5 point to incentivize great flying if you thought that would work better. It would also mitigate the MoV being used to determine the last few spots (or those that just barely don't make it when everyone else did) for the cut. Largely because your score more accurately reflects how well you played, and since it's more granular there are fewer people with the same score.

28 minutes ago, Khyros said:

Yup... That was basically the system I wanted implemented.

Win = Win by 34+ points = 4 points

Modified Win = Win by 13-33 points = 3 points

Draw = Within 12 points = 2 points

Modified Loss = Lose by 13-33 points = 1 point

Loss = Lose by 34+ points = 0 points

You could even go ahead and make a full win with 5 point to incentivize great flying if you thought that would work better. It would also mitigate the MoV being used to determine the last few spots (or those that just barely don't make it when everyone else did) for the cut. Largely because your score more accurately reflects how well you played, and since it's more granular there are fewer people with the same score.

I think I had the Draw at less than 12 points and may have pushed the "win" down a little as well. While a full win of 5 may work I wondered about a Complete Destruction bonus of +1 point as it would be possible to completely destroy your opponent yet barely survive the encounter yourself. The "Pup stands alone" would only be a draw in points while the elimination would give the Pup a 1 point edge but lowing the draw threshold to 12 points means most actual complete destruction of one side scenarios should leave at least 12 points on the board.

Sadly, instead of making the tournament scoring a bit more nuanced and probably reducing the need to next level tiebreakers FFG instead when with a binary scoring system where you either win or lose even if that it decided by some version of a coin flip. Some could say that scoring at five levels is the same as just using MoV to break all of those ties that a straight win/lose record provide but that isn't entirely true.