The javascript:void(0);/*1264862336371*/ came up in our game today, and it sparked a little debate. The wording on the card suggests two different scenarios:

Lose 3 Sanity and 3 Stamina and discard Flute of the Outer Gods before making a Combat check to defeat all monsters in your current area.

Lose 3 Sanity and 3 Stamina and discard Flute of the Outer Gods before making a Combat check to defeat all monsters in your current area.

Which interpretation is correct? Do you pay the stamina and sanity, then make a single combat check that, on a success, kills everything? Or do you simply discard the flute before you roll a combat check to automatically defeat everything in the area?

The second interpretation is correct. You lose the amounts of sanity and stamina (3 each) as is stated on the card, then discard it before making a combat check, which results in all monsters in your current area (not neighborhood though) to be defeated. You never make a combat check at all. Since the flute is usable any phase your investigator does not need to make a horror check either since no real combat is being initiated at all.

I've asked some times ago the same question. Tibs kindly answered me you have to enter combat (with whatever monster you prefer), so this means make a horror check that doesn't drive you insane, and then using the flute. reference thread

http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=5&efcid=1&efidt=97692&efpag=0#98042

Wrong.

http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Flute_of_the_Outer_Gods

Read the clarification.

::Laughter:: I love when new forum users give incorrect rulings ;') Piece of advice for the future, say "I think" or "I believe" before statements. Don't make a definite statement unless you've first checked it in the rules, an FAQ, errata threads, or the AH wiki.

Sorry, Avi, I can't see the difference. First: horror check. Then: use the flute.

If there are more monsters on the spot, just one horror check and then we go.

Could you help me in finding my error? English is not my first language, so maybe there are nuances I can't catch

And sorry to everybody if I made some confusion. I didn't want to give false information to anyone!

Avi_dreader said:

But yes, sorry for having been "absolute". Not in my intentions, really. Next time I'll remember the advice!

Julia said:

::Laughter:: actually, I was referring to the first commentator, your ruling was spot on ;') I'm sorry for not being clearer.

You cited Tibs ;') that's good enough in most cases.

Tibs, Dam, and Coltsfan are all old timers who usually give reliable rulings.

I'd like to list myself, but the truth is I hate keeping track of rules minutiae for citation, so I usually won't correct players :')

I was a bit terse in my response earlier. Early morning crotchetiness I suppose.

::laughter:: uops, sorry!

Anyway, I've got a little question related to this card too. May I use it to get rid of the monsters placed in the Miskatonic University street as consequence of the Terrible experiment rumor? I've never considered them as a "normal" group of monster, since the player can choose which monsters fight, careless of the others, so I would say that you can use the flute against just one monster, but I'm not sure about this

Julia said:

I'm pretty sure that you can't do it as a group (notice how I say pretty sure to avoid committing myself to a definite ruling).

---

EDIT:

Actually, after reading both cards, I'd say you almost definitely can't use the flute in either case, because the monsters are not in your area, they're on the card (you on the other hand, are not on the card, you're in the Miskatonic U. Streets). I say this with 98% confidence :')

http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Flute_of_the_Outer_Gods

http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/The_Terrible_Experiment

Avi_dreader said:

Good to know.

I've been playing AH ever since it was re-released by FFG and have been playing it with lots and lots of different people and none ever used the ruling you'd need to make a horror check. Seems like they got it all wrong then . And I'm not a person who spends his entire time browsing FAQs or wikis, but rather playing games with friends. Yet my ruling that there won't be a combat check was quite correct.

As for yourself and your advice ... some politeness and respect wouldn't hurt.

Well, looks like that's all been cleared up. Thanks for the replies!

Malefic Sorcerer said:

Other than the sarcastic remark about new commentators (which really wasn't directed at you personally, it's more of a general observation), I didn't really say anything insulting.

I sincerely meant what I said, before (I didn't intend for it to be read as something snide). Unless you're well versed in the minutiae of Arkham rules, please don't present your opinion as a definite fact, even if you're right eighty percent of the time, it leads to rules confusions. Cite your rules source, explain your reasoning, or present your opinion as an opinion as opposed to a fact (unless it's for something really basic like phase order or a standard game rule). It's a good rule of thumb for minimizing misrulings and forum fighting that often comes about from misrulings (if you thought I was cranky ;') you should see how some of the other forum members can get after they see the same mistake made for the who-knows-how-manyth time).

I played the Statue wrong for a few years too. The mistake is often made because it's very terminologically subtle (people often slide horror check and combat check together, when they're actually two distinct things made during combat).

Just to remind you, you said there is no combat check, that's correct, you also said there's no horror check, that's incorrect. You also made a weird assertion about the meaning of "any phase." The reason why the card text says any phase is (I'm almost entirely certain—although I'd like some confirmation from one of the other players I mentioned earlier), so you can use it during Arkham Encounters phase or Other World Encounters phase if a monster appears on you.

The card writing would have been clearer had it said before making a horror check; however, the game designers probably didn't use that wording because it would lead to problems with cultists and maniacs (i.e. no horror checks are made against them— or at least it hasn't been specified in the rules whether a horror check is made even if there is no horror check modifier or penalty for failure). ::Shrug:: I'm not really sure why it was phrased the way it was phrased. I don't really care too much either. Flute is a card that's notorious for leading to confusion. So is The Terrible Experiment. If you'll hang out on this forum for long enough, you'll keep seeing these **** cards pop up over and over and over :') which will bring comfort if you like repetition or unpaid board game technical support, and irritation if not.

Avi_dreader said:

Riiiiiiiight ...

Because we all know that not being a "newbie" makes you more likely to be right.

Oh sorry, I left my sarcasm mode on.

Piece of advice for the future avi, it's possible to correct someone without being brusque.

Avi_dreader said:

And who decides who is "well versed"?

I find your attitude to be rather elitist, even if you're not including yourself in the list of people who are "well versed". If someone gets an asnwer wrong then why not just politely correct them instead of saying "You're not on the list, therefore your answer is just an opinion and not a fact and therefore shouldn't be posted as such because you might be wrong!" Yes, they might be wrong, but so might anyone on your list. Would you adopt such an attitude towards them or would you just correct them? Would they flunk off your list for their wrong answer? No? Well then why criticise someone else for giving one wrong answer?

I used to play the Terminator CCG and I will never forget the debate I started in which I queried the wording of one of the cards. The designer of the game came on and made a rule but several people all started taking issue that - even if that was the intent of the card - that wasn't what the card actually said. The debate went on for a while but eventually the designer of the game admitted that he was wrong. Despite intending the card to do X Y Z, given the way he had worded it it now did A B C. And nobody slagged off either myself or those who had kept the debate going as just being "newbies" whose "opinions weren't fact". It's a shame that such a mature attitude isn't more pervasive on this board ...

Avi_dreader said:

So, the main point is "they are not considered on the board" from The terrible experiment text. Good point. I thought this sentence was referring to the fact that, for example, they cannot be forced to move with the Mi-go brain case, or similar device, and not to the fact they aren't phisically in a certain area (which should invalidate the power of the Flute of the outer gods, if I've understand correctly your thoughts).

Until now, I've always thought that, as soon as you survive to the Horror check, you are in combat wuth a monster, so this condition is sufficient to use the power of the Flute. Applied to the Terrible experiment, I thought only that you cannot defeat the whole bunch of monsters with this technique, but only one. This could be useful if you have the Dhole summoned via Terrible experiment. But yeah, probably I played it wrongly.

Thank you for the clarification

Avi_dreader said:

Exactly. And when a monster (or several of them) enters my investigators location during the monster movement phase I am instantly allowed to use the flute IF my investigator has both the sanity and stamina to boot. Every single player I ever played with ruled that's why it states 'any phase' on the item card, thus making it usable before actual combat begins. Seems to be a houserule then which lots of people use, born out of insufficient clarification back in the day. Also it might be interpreted as a matter of perception as to when the actual 'combat phase' would start.

Besides that ... let's just say you chose to utilize the flute in a location with like three or maybe four different monsters in it. Who determines which monsters horror check modifier you'll have to use for the supposed horror check ? The First Player ? Roll a die ? Am I allowed to choose myself which monsters modifier to pick and thus able to use the easiest one ? Now that's pretty cheesy actually ...

Avi_dreader said:

Just to remind you, you said there is no combat check, that's correct, you also said there's no horror check, that's incorrect. You also made a weird assertion about the meaning of "any phase." The reason why the card text says any phase is (I'm almost entirely certain—although I'd like some confirmation from one of the other players I mentioned earlier), so you can use it during Arkham Encounters phase or Other World Encounters phase if a monster appears on you.

Exactly. And when a monster (or several of them) enters my investigators location during the monster movement phase I am instantly allowed to use the flute IF my investigator has both the sanity and stamina to boot. Every single player I ever played with ruled that's why it states 'any phase' on the item card, thus making it usable before actual combat begins. Seems to be a houserule then which lots of people use, born out of insufficient clarification back in the day. Also it might be interpreted as a matter of perception as to when the actual 'combat phase' would start.

Besides that ... let's just say you chose to utilize the flute in a location with like three or maybe four different monsters in it. Who determines which monsters horror check modifier you'll have to use for the supposed horror check ? The First Player ? Roll a die ? Am I allowed to choose myself which monsters modifier to pick and thus able to use the easiest one ? Now that's pretty cheesy actually ...

That's right, there's nothing preventing you from cherry picking the easiest monster for the horror check. And yes, it would be the player in possession of the flute, why would another player be able to determine the order of monster fighting for you? It's just a normal fight scenario that takes place after completing a horror check I'm not sure why you would propose bringing in the first player or a die.

Okay, maybe this was a slip of tongue, but there's no monster movement phase, there's a Mythos Phase, anyways, moving on. You can't use it during the mythos phase because you are not using it before making a combat check (i.e. having passed a horror check). The only times you could potentially use it would be movement, arkham encounters, other world encounters (and I'm pretty sure that's it— I can't think of anything that can cause you to fight a random monster during upkeep).

Also, you don't need to have the sanity and stamina to use the card. Once you pass the horror check, even if you're down to one sanity and one stamina, you can use the flute, it's just you'll be devoured as a consequence (see the rule that causes instant devouring if san/stam are reduced to zero simultaneously); however, you supposedly get possession of the monster trophies and can move them to your next investigator (since trophies transfer with retiring or devourings).

I don't remember the exact rationale behind the ruling (if you're curious, I'd suggest you repost it as a separate question). I'd guess it's somewhat akin to the idea that spells are cast even if they drive you insane, or perhaps the ruling that you can cast a spell that costs more sanity than you have ::shrug:: I didn't particularly like that ruling because even though it let players use Dread Curse of Azathoth with a Crystal of the Elder Things, and another large 2 sanity cost spell, it also allows potential massive abuse with Call Ancient One ::shrug:: ah well. I'm still hoping that that card will be neutered in the final FAQ errata.

Avi_dreader said:

Aieeee, praise from Avi ?

Will -5 [8] check or devoured

Fail

Avi_dreader said:Other than the sarcastic remark about new commentators (which really wasn't directed at you personally, it's more of a general observation), I didn't really say anything insulting.

I sincerely meant what I said, before (I didn't intend for it to be read as something snide). Unless you're well versed in the minutiae of Arkham rules, please don't present your opinion as a definite fact, even if you're right eighty percent of the time, it leads to rules confusions. Cite your rules source, explain your reasoning, or present your opinion as an opinion as opposed to a fact (unless it's for something really basic like phase order or a standard game rule). It's a good rule of thumb for minimizing misrulings and forum fighting that often comes about from misrulings (if you thought I was cranky ;') you should see how some of the other forum members can get after they see the same mistake made for the who-knows-how-manyth time).

As one of self-appointed gatekeepers of this forum (you named most the others earlier), you may not understand your own power. I've seen this happen dozens of time since I've been on the forum. A new posters posts. The gatekeepers attack and only the hardiest survive.

The OP may have overstated his understanding by answering incorrectly and with more authority than he had in light of his incorrect answer. But really just a correction by one of more of the other gatekeepers (or a reference to the secret FAQ) will fix any confusion that might have arisen.

mageith said:

I understand the problem just fine Mageith ;') that's why I apologized for writing in a way that led to hurt feelings and misunderstandings. If I were an absolute stranger to this forum, I would not have apologized for writing bluntly in a rush (believe me, I *hate* apologizing— especially for an expressive style that is a pain in the ass to repress, i.e. mild irony and/or sarcasm everywhere).

Dam said:

I knew it would kill you ;') that's why I said it.

nothing to see here...

avec said:

::Laughter:: you just saw where I said the same thing, huh? But yeah, what you said :')

draws Dam as replacement poster

Dam said:

CHEATER! You're not allowed to draw the same character a second time after being devoured! Oh no, this must not *really* be Dam, this must be Dam's evil twin (who evidently lies as much as the old Dam)! The horror! The horror! Unless you meant like a wall poster? Don't you think it's a little vain to be putting posters of yourself on your own wall? Yeesh. Just get a mirror like a normal narcissist.