Here's the biggest issue with spamming generic non-manueverable, mediocre-speed Rebel fighters that can only attack in-arc:

You'll have a good chance against any list that has to joust you, and a good chance against anyone who's inexperienced enough to joust you with a list that doesn't need to joust, BUT against many of the top meta lists that can beat you without jousting, you're in for long, slow, frustrating games of getting to make very few meaningful attacks attacks.

A Dash/Miranda will dance around the obstacle field all day long, using their higher PS and Barrel Roll / SLAM to make sure you can never focus fire on them. Meanwhile, they'll take opportunistic turret shots at you and eventually burn down some of your ships. This makes for a really frustrating game for the rebel swarm player. The same sort of principle applies with other lists like Parattani and Kanan/Biggs and Double Jumps: you can try to fortress against such lists, but (1) this is very boring, and (2) you risk losing the game when they pounce on you in the last five minutes of the game and try to kill your weakest fighter.

To answer the OP's question, I've spent the past few months post-Regionals desperately trying to get a list with two T70s to work, because I enjoy the ship and thematically like them and want to do something different. The bad news is that they're just not viable. An upgraded T70 Ace is far more points than a fully-kitted Contracted Scout, and not nearly as versatile or effective. The T70 cost three points more than the TIE/SF , and the TIE/SF has an identical stat-line, better dial, comparable upgrade bar (System instead of Astro), and a goddamn rear arc with the ability to double-attack, and yet the SF is hardly defining the meta. A T70 Ace with a Regen Droid costs more than an X7 Defender, and is hardly as survivable and is far less maneuverable. It's a ship that is dead in the water. And the T65 (sans Biggs) is an even worse spot.


So my assessment after a few months and about two dozen iterations of trying to get T70 Aces to work is that they simply cannot.* And Rebel Generic Spam loses to anything that doesn't have to joust with it, which is a lot of the meta. So, if you want to fly an X-Wing you're looking at Biggs or a Jess Pava + Stressdroid (which just functions as a cheaper, tougher Biggs ideally).


* NOTE : when I say they "cannot work" I am using a somewhat high bar, in that the lists have collectively gone about 50-50 at casual X-Wing nights and local OP Kit tourneys. Which is far too low of a performing list to take to something like a Store Champ or Nationals and expect to make the cut.

Whats even more amusing, is the only reason X-Wings still even manage to FIND even a remote winnable play, is the fact that people forget how to fly against their dials cause, oh huge surprise, they Dont show up on the field 90% of the time, not that it matters much with how simple the x-wings maneuvers are.

3 hours ago, Skargoth said:

If IA allowed another mod up to 2 points (similar smuggler compartment) I think both the T-70 and T-65 would see increased play. Also, due to Biggs low PS and need for formation flying it would have little effect because all the T-65 would really get is Vectored Thrusters.

Then T-70s could take IA and AT, but most wouldn't because they don't want to pay for AT. But it would be an option... and Poe would be returned to his glory.

This is half of the X-wing "fix" I would like to see. A straight-up errata to Integrated Astromech could work. Other option would be to make it a generic astromech.

In addition, the T-65 deserves a unique title (PS 6 and up?) to make the elite pilots shine. I think it should be monstrous. If Wedge and Wes become meta-staples, Good! A unique title is unlikely to break the game as a whole. Gotta allow Garven to equip it. Of course Biggs can gank it by using VI but I'm not sure how to avoid that.

20 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Here's the biggest issue with spamming generic non-manueverable, mediocre-speed Rebel fighters that can only attack in-arc:

You'll have a good chance against any list that has to joust you, and a good chance against anyone who's inexperienced enough to joust you with a list that doesn't need to joust, BUT against many of the top meta lists that can beat you without jousting, you're in for long, slow, frustrating games of getting to make very few meaningful attacks attacks.

A Dash/Miranda will dance around the obstacle field all day long, using their higher PS and Barrel Roll / SLAM to make sure you can never focus fire on them. Meanwhile, they'll take opportunistic turret shots at you and eventually burn down some of your ships. This makes for a really frustrating game for the rebel swarm player. The same sort of principle applies with other lists like Parattani and Kanan/Biggs and Double Jumps: you can try to fortress against such lists, but (1) this is very boring, and (2) you risk losing the game when they pounce on you in the last five minutes of the game and try to kill your weakest fighter.

See, I'll agree this is true if all you're trying to do is line up your formation of X-Wings and trying to do is mass your firepower on each pass - The joust does not work . Sure, your X-Wings get a pretty good shot, if you manage to catch your target in arc... As you noted, most big lists are fast moving and dodge the heck out of that one big salvo. Lining up and expecting people to joust X-Wings is lining yourself up for failure.

That said, I will not argue that winning with a list of X-Wings is easy nor will I argue that you are going to get the same value out of the classic T-65 as you would in many of the newer FFG designs. You are effectively fighting with one hand behind your back. You can win, but I wouldn't expect the top players in the world to win premier events with a list of pure X-Wings.

So it comes down to - what does one want to do when they play the game? Win at all costs - don't fly T-65s outside of Biggs. Challenge themselves? Heck, throw them down and have some fun.

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

Heck, throw them down and have some fun.

Fun is overcosted by 2.75333 points...

I had a lot of fun just 2 days ago with this:

Luke: V.I, r2d2, IA

Tarn: r7, IA

Rookie pilot

Rookie pilot

Heck, I even won! Unfortunately both Rookies gave their lives for the rebellion, may they rest in peace.

X4 (100)

Rookie Pilot (26) - X-Wing
R2 Astromech (1), Seismic Torpedo (2), Vectored Thrusters (2)

Rookie Pilot (26) - X-Wing
R2 Astromech (1), Seismic Torpedo (2), Vectored Thrusters (2)

Rookie Pilot (24) - X-Wing
R2 Astromech (1), Vectored Thrusters (2)

Rookie Pilot (24) - X-Wing
R2 Astromech (1), Vectored Thrusters (2)

18 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

Really, there's 2 things keeping the Xwing down anymore

1) Wedge should be able to equip IA and Vectored Thrusters at the same time.

2) OP scum crap.

Wedge needs vectored thrusters and IA?

May I present to you this little guy:

BB-8 does wonders for wedge. Sure it's not post movement but you want a focus/target lock anyway most of the time, so this really helps out.

1 hour ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Wedge needs vectored thrusters and IA?

May I present to you this little guy:

BB-8 does wonders for wedge. Sure it's not post movement but you want a focus/target lock anyway most of the time, so this really helps out.

I'm well aware of Batwedge, which uses Engine upgrade instead of IA. Allow IA and engine upgrade at the same time, and you'll see it more often.

I have great fun and better than average results (better than my Imp lists post-nerf, that's for sure ?):

Jek Porkins (30 points): Predator (3), R2 Astromech (1).

Luke Skywalker (34 points): Expert Handling (2), R2-D2 (4).

Torpedo Strike Wedge (36 points): R2 Astromech (2), Crack Shot (1), Proton Torpedoes (4), Guidance Chips (0)

2 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

I'm well aware of Batwedge, which uses Engine upgrade instead of IA. Allow IA and engine upgrade at the same time, and you'll see it more often.

No I don't mean batwedge, If you have BB-8 I feel Engine upgrade is a waste of points. I'd rather have Proton torps/IA than Engine upgrade. Better yet Advanced proton torps if you can spare the points.

Also the T-70 has engine upgrade and can take IA and it's seen about the same as it's predecessor... one pilot everyone uses (Jess for t-70/biggs for t-65) and that's about it. Poe had his 5 minutes of fame much like Wes Janson did in the meta; now almost no one runs him, Kind of like how Sootnir Fel has been benched. (speaking competitively of course, anything above a store championship)

Points out that both rebel lists that made top4 at worlds used 2 X-Wings (each)

(both running Jess and Biggs)

I like seeing the T-65 on the board, i think it looks amazing when you have two / three / four zeroing in on something and in formation.

Someone had four on magnets once and had them all banking, after they just banked left and it instantly reminded me of A New Hope. The fact the player had Wedge leading the charge and actually said "Look at the size of that thing. . " talking about the Ghost, really brought a smile to my face.

That smile didn't last long though, as Ashoka used her ability to enable Kanan to boost, essentially at PS12 and Kanan was now out of three of the four arcs. . his TLT ready to lay down four damage on Wedge with his accuracy corrector. . leaving his recon specialist infused focus stack to reduce Wedge's attack dice to a measly two. and Jan Ors evade to ensure that despite what Wedge does, only one damage is getting through. It was at that time, the X wing player realized that his four ships was no match for a single ghost and all hope was lost.

But he got points for control, style and aggression, just not damage, the only thing that truly matters.

With all that being said, i'm not entirely sure what can be done for the T65. I think you need to accept that the Rebel workhorse is out of the loop. Its still fun to fly, has the most iconic characters within its ranks but it will eventually crash and burn just like in the films, I mean, only three of them survived if I remember correctly, out of what, twenty?

16 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

This is half of the X-wing "fix" I would like to see. A straight-up errata to Integrated Astromech could work. Other option would be to make it a generic astromech.

In addition, the T-65 deserves a unique title (PS 6 and up?) to make the elite pilots shine. I think it should be monstrous. If Wedge and Wes become meta-staples, Good! A unique title is unlikely to break the game as a whole. Gotta allow Garven to equip it. Of course Biggs can gank it by using VI but I'm not sure how to avoid that.

Not wanting to derail the thread into another "fix" thread but if we are going titles, can we have Rogue Squadron have their own version of Swarm Leader? I.E

Rogue Squadron - Title - T-65 Only - 0 points
"When you declare the target of an attack, if another friendly ship with the Rogue Squadron title and within range one to two of you has the target in their primary firing arc, you may re-roll up to two attack dice."

This helps them with their action economy a little, as they only really need to focus now for a fully modified attack. It keeps the unit together but not HUG BIGGS close. It gives Rebels a way of re-rolling their dice which is seriously lacking within their faction and doesn't actually make Biggs any tougher.

Also, i don't think this would actually make the X wing tier 1 competitive, it would just make it hold it's own more in casual play.

I have had great results with this squadron. The only things I bought are

Heroes

B-wing. The x wing is a great backup for the falcon.

I used: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build# to make this visual.

4 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

That smile didn't last long though

Sounds more like he just got out flown. He obviously missed the Ahsoka Boost play, which got you out of arcs. That's a mistake. Wedge should have been used to melt Ahsoka since he has the PS to do so, and if you used one of Kanan's Focus to reduce damage on her, you would be taking more damage from the 3 X-Wings focusing on the VCX. Kanan could melt Wedge in two turns, but Wedge would be shooting first, and would likely have a dead Ahsoka in 2.

3 X-Wings should melt a Kanan Ghost quicker than your TLT double tap can chew through them.

8 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Sounds more like he just got out flown. He obviously missed the Ahsoka Boost play, which got you out of arcs. That's a mistake. Wedge should have been used to melt Ahsoka since he has the PS to do so, and if you used one of Kanan's Focus to reduce damage on her, you would be taking more damage from the 3 X-Wings focusing on the VCX. Kanan could melt Wedge in two turns, but Wedge would be shooting first, and would likely have a dead Ahsoka in 2.

3 X-Wings should melt a Kanan Ghost quicker than your TLT double tap can chew through them.

Wasn't my match so can't comment on what the thought process was of both players but I agree, nine attack dice should chew through a Ghost quite nicely, assuming they get arc of course.

That being said, I find it difficult to counter the Ashoka boost, i mean, if you cast a wide net so you have shots on both potential positions, they just don't boost. If you go all in, they boost, its quite flexible.

14 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

That being said, I find it difficult to counter the Ashoka boost

Yeah, the ability to reposition after everyone is a very powerful trick with Ahsoka. That's why I think the right play was to get her off the board asap before losing the high PS pilot. Assuming Ahsoka was using VI, it was likely his only shot to get her off the board on his terms. The only other option is to force a bump to prevent her from getting Focus.

1 hour ago, kris40k said:

Yeah, the ability to reposition after everyone is a very powerful trick with Ahsoka. That's why I think the right play was to get her off the board asap before losing the high PS pilot. Assuming Ahsoka was using VI, it was likely his only shot to get her off the board on his terms. The only other option is to force a bump to prevent her from getting Focus.

Agreed. Even then, i see people take Rey crew to stop that.

very efficient little ship, unlike a certain T65.

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 6:47 PM, Black Arrow2 said:

Also, One of my favourite Rebel builds.

Blue Squadron Pilot x 1

Rookie Pilot x 2

Bandit Squadron Pilot x 3

It's brutal to fly against and a lot of fun to play. No mess, no hassle, no worries about new waves or rule interactions. Just straight up jousting power.

I haven't run this one, but I have run 2B/4Z, or 2X/4Z, all at PS4, with reasonable results.