4 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Not just the army faction, but the unit's faction too, from how I'm reading that part of the rules. If that unit doesn't, then neutrals only.

It mentions matching the faction of the army and the type of the unit. Unit type is going to be either Infantry, Cavalry, or Siege. It says nothing about matching the faction of the unit.

RRG, pg. 3:
'Upgrade cards are equipped to units in an army. However, some
upgrade cards have a unit type or faction icon, denoting that these
cards can only be equipped to a unit of the matching type in an
army of the matching faction.'

RRG, pg. 20:
'87.1 Each unit has a unit type icon in the lower-left of its unit card. This icon indicates the unit’s type and is used to determine what type of trays to use. There are three unit types: infantry, cavalry, and seige.'

5 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

It mentions matching the faction of the army and the type of the unit. Unit type is going to be either Infantry, Cavalry, or Siege. It says nothing about matching the faction of the unit.

RRG, pg. 3:
'Upgrade cards are equipped to units in an army. However, some
upgrade cards have a unit type or faction icon, denoting that these
cards can only be equipped to a unit of the matching type in an
army of the matching faction .'

RRG, pg. 20:
'87.1 Each unit has a unit type icon in the lower-left of its unit card. This icon indicates the unit’s type and is used to determine what type of trays to use. There are three unit types: infantry, cavalry, and seige.'

Notice the bold phrase since it mentions about matching the faction of the unit and army.

3 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Notice the bold phrase since it mentions about matching the faction of the unit and army.

The bolded phrase says nothing about the unit's faction. The faction of the unit isn't mentioned once in that entire passage.

The type of the unit is mentioned.
The faction of the army is mentioned.
The type and faction of the upgrade card is mentioned.

14 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

The bolded phrase says nothing about the unit's faction. The faction of the unit isn't mentioned once in that entire passage.

The type of the unit is mentioned.
The faction of the army is mentioned.
The type and faction of the upgrade card is mentioned.

Seriously? What to you really think they are referring to when they are talking about a unit of a matching type in an army of the matching faction? You need to fulfill both the unit type and faction for the upgrade.

5 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Seriously? What to you really think they are referring to when they are talking about a unit of a matching type in an army of the matching faction? You need to fulfill both the unit type and faction for the upgrade.

I think that they mean exactly what they wrote.

1. Upgrades cards may have a faction icon. This must match the faction of the army.

2. Upgrade cards may have a unit type icon. This must match the unit type of the unit to which the upgrade is equipped.

The faction of the unit isn't mention. If the unit's faction needed to match that of the upgrade then I would assume that they would have at least mentioned it.

9 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I think that they mean exactly what they wrote.

1. Upgrades cards may have a faction icon. This must match the faction of the army.

2. Upgrade cards may have a unit type icon. This must match the unit type of the unit to which the upgrade is equipped.

The faction of the unit isn't mention. If the unit's faction needed to match that of the upgrade then I would assume that they would have at least mentioned it.

I agree here, unit faction is likely not relevant, only army faction, and in this case they are Waiqar.

Also I am also assuming he can only add trays in legal formations (as Hawthorne specifically allows us to muddle that)

So he can add trays to units that haven't lost trays? Like effectively increasing his army beyond the starting 200 points? At the cost of suffering wounds of course. For which he can heal in later turns. Seems pretty powerful

35 minutes ago, Darthain said:

I agree here, unit faction is likely not relevant, only army faction, and in this case they are Waiqar.

RAW or RAI issues aside, thematically I think this works ... trained Waiqar leading freshly raised Daqan, seasoned Daqan veterans leading helping Latari archers, etc...

41 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I think that they mean exactly what they wrote.

1. Upgrades cards may have a faction icon. This must match the faction of the army.

2. Upgrade cards may have a unit type icon. This must match the unit type of the unit to which the upgrade is equipped.

The faction of the unit isn't mention. If the unit's faction needed to match that of the upgrade then I would assume that they would have at least mentioned it.

Unit cards have an icon.

Upgrade cards which have a faction icon must match that icon.

It's nonsense. You cannot add an infantry upgrade to a cavalry unit (with cavalry icon)

Therefore you cannot put a waiqar upgrade card on a unit card that contains a Daqan/latari elves icon.

Look at the second card (the back). Left upper corner -> Daqan faction icon. The same icon found on Daqan upgrade cards.

2 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Unit cards have an icon.

Yup. They sure do.

4 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Upgrade cards which have a faction icon must match that icon.

Nothing in the rules even suggests that that is true.

4 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

It's nonsense.

That's subjective. I think that looking at a block of rules text that clearly says one thing and trying to read between the lines to make it say something quite different is nonsense, but to each their own.

5 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

You cannot add an infantry upgrade to a cavalry unit (with cavalry icon)

That's because the rules tell you that those need to match.

5 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Therefore you cannot put a waiqar upgrade card on a unit card that contains a Daqan/latari elves icon.

Why not? There's nothing in the rules that I've seen so far that says that the faction of the unit and the upgrade card need to match. The rules say that the faction of the upgrade card must match the faction of the army. They never mention the faction of the unit needing to match what is on the upgrade.

I think it makes sense and leads to units that are in armies outside of their usually faction potentially being much different than they are in their native faction due to the difference in available upgrades..

I'm sure this has all been exhaustively argued in the Kari + Latari thread...

Coming off the back of the hot mess/dumpster fire of X-Wing and its multitude of upgrade and ship interactions/exploits, for the sake of the game I hope they FAQ it to be Neutral upgrades only to the out-of-faction unit.

The designers will have their work cut out for them as it is keeping things balanced without adding cross-pollinating upgrades to the mix...

That's my two hits on the dead horse anyway...

This guy looks to be great, with loads of potential synergy with other waiqar units and upgrades. Not sure what his army selection ability will mean at this point, but it seems interesting.

3 hours ago, Sulfurious said:

Without any further information, I would say that they have to at least adhere to one of the units legal formations but even that's up for debate I guess.

Also, what happens if you summon onto a unit that's already at max size, like a 4x3 unit of Reanimates?

5 Trays wide, suddenly a Turn 2 charge to the left makes your right edge charge forwards longer than range 5 on the range ruler hahaha

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

Yup. They sure do.

Nothing in the rules even suggests that that is true.

That's subjective. I think that looking at a block of rules text that clearly says one thing and trying to read between the lines to make it say something quite different is nonsense, but to each their own.

That's because the rules tell you that those need to match.

Why not? There's nothing in the rules that I've seen so far that says that the faction of the unit and the upgrade card need to match. The rules say that the faction of the upgrade card must match the faction of the army. They never mention the faction of the unit needing to match what is on the upgrade.

I think it makes sense and leads to units that are in armies outside of their usually faction potentially being much different than they are in their native faction due to the difference in available upgrades..

Reading the rulebook is not that hard.

Piece of cake: RR, page 3

Upgrade cards are equipped to units in an army. However, some upgrade cards have a unit type (1) or faction icon (2) , denoting that these cards can only be equipped to a unit of the matching type (1) in an army of the matching faction (2) .

A golem in a waiqar army isn't a waiqar unit, because that's defined by faction icon. How can I be so sure?

RR37 There are multiple factions in the Runewars Miniatures Game. A unit or upgrade is part of a faction if the face of a card contains a faction’s icon

Therefore: daqan unit matches Daqan upgrades. Why? Cause it matches the faction of the unit. Easy as hell. If you like to match only unit type icons and not faction icons, that's your "house rule" but not what rulebook says. (again RR 37)

You might want to place a geomancer on oathsworns, but you can't (or shouldn't) because it doesn't match unit type. (RR. page 3)

Now that I notice. Nowhere says that I cannot choose troops from as many armies as I want in the army building section.

I don't understand, I'm not even English and I can look it up in an English online pdf rulebook. Please in case of discussion read and quote the rulebook. Using F3 makes it quick and easy (I'm lazy too). Because if we don't tournaments will be wrong and there'll be lots of unnecesary arguments.

1 hour ago, maxam said:

I'm sure this has all been exhaustively argued in the Kari + Latari thread...

Coming off the back of the hot mess/dumpster fire of X-Wing and its multitude of upgrade and ship interactions/exploits, for the sake of the game I hope they FAQ it to be Neutral upgrades only to the out-of-faction unit.

The designers will have their work cut out for them as it is keeping things balanced without adding cross-pollinating upgrades to the mix...

That's my two hits on the dead horse anyway...

It's largely why I would like to see a short sentence in a FAQ to finally put an end to it.

@druchii7 : There is a sentence that limits what units you can take. Page 3 of the rules reference under units: "An army can include any number of units of any types from the same faction."

With the idea of using upgrades from one faction with 'ally' units (i.e. Kari or Ankaur's passive), they could point to the Golden Rule, where while you can't take units from other factions in the RR, some heroes can contradict that and their rule will take precedence.

Just now, Kubernes said:

@druchii7 : There is a sentence that limits what units you can take. Page 3 of the rules reference under units: "An army can include any number of units of any types from the same faction."

right

18 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Reading the rulebook is not that hard.

Piece of cake: RR, page 3

[snip]

if the face of a card contains a faction’s icon

[snip]

I don't understand, I'm not even English and I can look it up in an English online pdf rulebook. Please in case of discussion read and quote the rulebook. Using F3 makes it quick and easy (I'm lazy too). Because if we don't tournaments will be wrong and there'll be lots of unnecesary arguments.

Man, you need to chill out.

Let's keep this discussion civilised and calm.

FWIW WWHSD did quote the rulebook -

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Reading the rulebook is not that hard.

I agree, but you seem to be having some problems doing so.

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

RR, page 3

Upgrade cards are equipped to units in an army. However, some upgrade cards have a unit type (1) or faction icon (2) , denoting that these cards can only be equipped to a unit of the matching type (1) in an army of the matching faction (2) .

This block you are quote established that upgrade cards can have icons denoting a unit type or faction. If they have a faction icon then they can only be used in an army of the matching faction. If they have a unit type icon (infantry, cavalry, or siege) then they can only be equipped to a unit of that type.

I'm good with all that. That's literally my entire argument right there.

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

A golem in a waiqar army isn't a waiqar unit, because that's defined by faction icon.

Correct. Spearmen in a Waiqar army are not Waiqar Infantry. Ankaur Maru can not add trays to them with his ability since it only affects Waiqar Infantry.

We're totally on the same page here.

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

RR37 There are multiple factions in the Runewars Miniatures Game. A unit or upgrade is part of a faction if the face of a card contains a faction’s icon

This bit that you quote establishes that upgrades and units can both have icons that indicate that they belong to a faction. Still good.

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Therefore: daqan unit matches Daqan upgrades. Why? Cause it matches the faction of the unit. Easy as hell.

This is where you kind of go off the rails. You are reading something into the rules that isn't actually there with this "therefore". There isn't anything that I've seen that says that the faction icon on a unit makes a difference when equipping upgrades. What I have seen in the rules is that the faction on a unit makes a difference when you include them in your army. I've also seen that the faction on an upgrade makes a difference when you include it in your army. I have yet to see anything that says that the faction icons on an upgrade much match the icon on the unit to which it is equipped.

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

If you like to match only unit type icons and not faction icons, that's your "house rule" but not what rulebook says. (again RR 37)

That's not my house rule. It's literally what the rulebook says to do.

RRG, pg. 20:
'88.6 Upgrade cards that have a unit-type icon can only be equipped to a unit matching that type.
88.7 Upgrade cards that have a faction icon can only be equipped in armies of that faction.'

Again, you are reading something into RR37 that isn't actually there.

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

You might want to place a geomancer on oathsworns, but you can't (or shouldn't) because it doesn't match unit type. (RR. page 3)

Not sure where you are going with this. If you are saying that you can't put an infantry upgrade on these guys then I totally agree.

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Now that I notice. Nowhere says that I cannot choose troops from as many armies as I want in the army building section.

It kind of does, right at the start of the units section:

RRG, pg. 3:
'An army can include any number of units of any types from the same faction'

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

I don't understand, I'm not even English and I can look it up in an English online pdf rulebook.

No offense, but you are getting what is written in the rulebook wrong.

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Please in case of discussion read and quote the rulebook.

I've quoted the rules several times already in this thread. In fact, I've been quoting some of the same blocks of rules that you are throwing at me.

46 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Because if we don't tournaments will be wrong and there'll be lots of unnecesary arguments.

On this we can agree. I'd much rather have this argument on these forums than over a table while we are trying to play a game.

I think its highly unlikely you can add trays beyond the units starting size - it'll be like shield regen in x wing

10 minutes ago, Hos said:

I think its highly unlikely you can add trays beyond the units starting size - it'll be like shield regen in x wing

I think a restriction along those lines is likely.

I think it's also possible that they might limit added trays beyond the maximum formation size. You can grow the unit beyond what you paid to bring but you can grow it past its maximum size.

Wow, this discussion is really heated, and I had no input...I feel so left out lol. But I agree with @WWHSD cards have to match unit type and army faction, not unit faction. Unit faction is only a thing for army building, if you get abilities like AM's and Kari's then you add an out of faction unit to your army. Outside of fluff these are not allies or anything, they are just a unit in a Waiqar ARMY or Daqan ARMY so If you want to throw in a group of dumbface crossbowman into AM's Waiqar army they can be equipped with combat ingenuity because they are in a Waiqar army. You are not running a Waiqar Army with a little side army of daqan bro's who just decided they might give bones a chance, they are part of the Waiqar army...

11 hours ago, Hos said:

I think its highly unlikely you can add trays beyond the units starting size - it'll be like shield regen in x wing

Well for what it's worth, the wording used in the news article suggest otherwise: " While this is a powerful ability that can quickly grow the ranks of the undead...".

Also, on Ankaur's card the special action description says " Add up to X full trays..." (they could have used terms like "replace" or "put back" if they meant to limit it to the unit's original size).

I got Tabletop Admiral working (I hope) properly with Anakaur now. Please let me know if you have any issues.

Check the box at the bottom to show him and other unreleased cards.

1 hour ago, Xargonaut said:

Well for what it's worth, the wording used in the news article suggest otherwise: " While this is a powerful ability that can quickly grow the ranks of the undead...".

Also, on Ankaur's card the special action description says " Add up to X full trays..." (they could have used terms like "replace" or "put back" if they meant to limit it to the unit's original size).

I agree with this, I think the point of this ability is to add trays, rather than just to regenerate trays which have been removed. I also think that it's reasonable to expect him to be able to add units however you please, since the rule for having legal unit layouts is for army building. Indeed there is a line in the rule book which specifically addresses that units will change throughout play into illegal configurations, which in no way invalidates them during play.

RRG pg 3, Army Configuration During Play sidebar.

During a game, players do not need to continually check if their army is legal. As players lose figures, trays, and upgrades, their armies may become configured in ways that are counter to the army-building rules. This is okay— the army-building rules only apply when building an army, not while playing the game.

Now, none of that means they won't restrict it to either or both of the restrictions people have mentioned, but I don't see a reason in the RAW that makes any restrictions beyond the unit being Waiqar infantry clearly intended. Hopefully, if they have those restrictions in mind they will add the text to the ability on the card so it's clear from the time the card is in our cold and clammy skeletonized hands.

4 minutes ago, werdnaegni said:

I got Tabletop Admiral working (I hope) properly with Anakaur now. Please let me know if you have any issues.

Check the box at the bottom to show him and other unreleased cards.