The FAQ states: "From a setting standpoint, such a career transition is highly unusual.
Leaving an established Empire Cult or the Colleges of Magic
would meet with suspicion, questions, and possibly persecution.
A wizard leaving the sanctioned and approved Colleges of Magic
could well be branded a hedge wizard, sorceror, or dangerous renegade
and find himself targetted by zealous Witch Hunters."

But this presupposes that the wizard 'leaves' his college. i.e. Send a letter of resignation or simply denies membership if asked. This is indeed ridiculous in the setting. However, a more organic scenario can be imagined:

A Bright Order wizard apprentice is instructed to spend a year adventuring before he can be initiated as an Acolyte. Six months later he finishes his apprentice career and decides to improve his melee skills. He asks his Dwarf Soldier friend for combat training. Never one for half measures the Dwarf sets the lad a punishing training schedule – treating him like any new recruit.

For the next six months the character invests his time perfecting martial skills and talents and exercising to improve his strength and toughness. While in the Soldier career he still wears his robes, symbols of college membership, casts spells and obeys college orders. He may or may not have time to complete this career before reporting back to his college. How is his college even going to know he has changed career? His masters might notice that he has spent time training his martial skills, but is this really so nonsensical for a future battle wizard?

I looks to me that the FAQ entry is overly proscriptive.

Yeah, I'm sure it's perfectly fine for a wizard to enter a non wizard career. You can rationalise it in several ways. The first (which the FAQ is talking about, I guess) is to leave the college itself. But you can change career in a more systemic sense but not so much in setting terms which reflects a wizard concentrating on different pursuits. It's worth saying, though, that in v3 a wizard can buy all sorts of non-wizardy actions and talents and stat advances while still following the wizard careers. But, I'd probably be inclined, if a wizard was concentrating on different types of skills and advances, to have him leave the career and follow one more appropriate to his interests, while staying in the College itself. It might be a good thing to include a non-magical career in the wizard's progression to reflect what sort of person he is, and that not everything he ever does has to be connected to magic.

And of course, on the other side of the coin, you could have a wizard stay in his wizard career and take magic-connected advances, but actually leave the College.

I don’t know if there is canon to cover this, but imo it is probably not legally possible to ‘leave’ a college without becoming an outlaw. Having entered, sworn an oath and been trained in the college methods; I would think you are bound for life.

I can imagine a wizard character finding a religious vocation, renounce spellcasting and becoming a Zealot. I doubt if Witchfinders would find objection to this new vocation. Practically the College needs only to ensure the character doesn’t stray into forbidden practice - giving up spellcasting makes that unlikely. However, he swore an oath to serve the college, which he might have to break if his new religious oath conflicted. If the College then expels him, his new Witchfinder friends might have to light the pyre…

Even if you don't officially exit a College you'll probably get into trouble with your superiors if you ignore your duties to the organization and advancing your craft when you start playing soldier or some other career. Sure you can say that you're still committed to the college and your gift but you'll need to be careful. Wizards are a rare breed I would think the colleges would make sure those rare resources are used to their fullest potential. (At least in my version of the Old World.)

Rorschach Six said:

I don't get that impression from the magic book.

To advance in rank the wizard needs to demonstrate magical advancement and/or serve the college. He is obliged to perform tasks for the college, if asked. He mustn’t step beyond the magical strictures of his college. Beyond this, I can’t see where it’s suggested that colleges manage the lives of members. They are not slaves or members of a religious order.

Then there are the practical questions of how such a policy is policed and enforced on members living outside the college. In terms of a setting, how can someone distinguish between non-career advances and a side-career? They can’t, so where is a line drawn?

The extreme of a wizard permanently giving up advancing his magic craft will be highly unusual. But if a wizard loses motivation to advance, is it wise to force him? Is it even possible to force him? If not what exactly would the college leadership do?

I get the impression that (after apprenticeship at least) a wizard is free to find their own path; within the law and barring the occasional favour to the college. In fact I see wizards as a fairly independent bunch. Critically a wizard not directly employed by the college needs to find employment, which may well involve a side career. Unless the college provides every member with an income and cannot see how they can demand exclusive concentration on magical advancement.

I also haven’t seen any objection from a metagame point of view.

Fresnel said:

While this is really a matter of style, that is the setting, the books do emphasis this inflexibility in the wizard career. So, you're free to adopt whatever style you want for your setting including permissive Colleges of Magic, that's not the really the setting default.

"The Colleges guard their expertise carefully and police their own students and masters with vigilance sometimes bordering on the paranoid", ToM, p.11

"Anyone entering a College is made to take an Oath of Loyalty." ToM, p.11

"Once a wizard joins a College, he is expected to stay within the organization until he dies, even if he shows no magical talent, or leaves Altdorf or settles elsewhere. Wherever life takes him, a wizard is a member of his College first and foremost..." ToM, p.11

"Wizards are a rare sight... Those wizards who decide to leave the Colleges to take up a life of adventure are rarer still, for to do so for any great length of time is to ignore their duties to their order and risk the wrath of their masters." ToM, p.40

"The duty of all College wizards is first and foremost to their order, and [working in other matters] is not encouraged" ToM, p.44

This is further emphasized in college specific sections, like the in p 45. "It is not unknown for a master of the College to demand that his apprentice swear an oath to never reveal his membership in the order to any outsider."

All that to me makes it pretty clear that the magic book is quite clear about wizards being rare resources which are tightly controlled by the Colleges. You can also look into the Tome of Blessings and notice that the only thing saving a wizard from a fiery death is his affiliation with a College.

I find it a little humorous that everyone is trying to rationalize a way you could leave the Wizard career without having upset your college.

My point is, take this quote from the FAQ that original poster pointed out:

"A wizard leaving the sanctioned and approved Colleges of Magic
could well be branded a hedge wizard, sorceror, or dangerous renegade
and find himself targetted by zealous Witch Hunters"

I WANT to play in that game. Who doesn't want to be the hedge wizard that the Witch Hunters are looking for? That's amazing drama right there begging to be brought to your table.

It all depends on how you look at the careers. Are they real careers that the characters work in and progress through or are they rather representations of what the character is focusing on? A wizard leaving the college itself will of course be hunted down (and sure it might lead to very nice adventures, but are you certain the other players want to play it, letting the choices of one player determine an entire campaign seems a bit weird to me), but does changing careers mean that you leave the college? I would not interpret the rules in that way (in fact I think that is why the rules refer to "leaving the college" rather than "leaving the wizard career path").

In the same fashion, does the fact that my character is a soldier mean that I have to be with my army and cannot go adventuring at all? The careers should be treated as templates rather than actual occupations. The player himself (possibly together with the GM) decides on how the careers fit with the character background.

With the limited amount of careers available I don't think you can limit the career selection even more than it is.

gruntl said:

This statement I whole heartedly-agree with. Use the career sheets as templates to base advancement opportunities on.

Lexicanum said:

Ok, I need to step back from parts of my last post. However, on the central issue of taking a side-career between progressing wizard careers, I believe my position still stands.

The quotes you make need some discussion:

"The Colleges guard their expertise carefully and police their own students and masters with vigilance sometimes bordering on the paranoid", ToM, p.11

Given the dangers of a wizard being corrupted by Chaos, this is entirely reasonable. Imo the policing would be focused on this threat. Having non-magical interests in art, science, religion, literature or martial skills, is unlikely to lead to suspicion of Chaos corruption.

"Anyone entering a College is made to take an Oath of Loyalty." ToM, p.11

Loyalty to the Empire and the College does not conflict with having non-magical interests.

"Once a wizard joins a College, he is expected to stay within the organization until he dies, even if he shows no magical talent, or leaves Altdorf or settles elsewhere. Wherever life takes him, a wizard is a member of his College first and foremost..." ToM, p.11

Again, I see no conflict. In fact those with no magical talents will be following non-magical careers.

"The duty of all College wizards is first and foremost to their order, and [working in other matters] is not encouraged" ToM, p.44

I think this discussion would benefit from fuller quotes from p44:

“Wizards are often sought by witch hunters to join their retinues in order to help sniff out those practicing unsanctioned magic. A mercenary captain may also pay a handsome commission to any wizard who agrees to fight alongside his men for a period of time, as long as the mercenaries’ interests do not conflict with those of the wizard’s order or the Empire.” ToM p44

It’s already established that such wizard’s are mavericks – but this employment is clearly permitted. So if the wizard picks up non-magical skills during this time, who is there to forbid it, why would everyone forbid it? These skills may save his life and preserving his life is in the interests of the College.

“Not all jobs are a matter of life and death, though. A noble may want a wizard to join his court, to act partly as an advisor and partly as an entertainer, keeping the noble and his guests amused with magical displays. The proprietors of famous theatres in Altdorf also like to keep a wizard on the books in order to provide useful illusions and other magical effects.

“The duty of all College wizards is first and foremost to their order, and such extra-curricular activity is not encouraged. The masters of the colleges expect their apprentices [my emphasis] to be available whenever they are needed. However they are also mindful that after a long period of training and practice, it is perhaps for the good of an apprentice’s sanity for him to spend some time doing what he wants, provided that the only harm done is to the enemies of the Empire and the wizard’s order.” ToM p44

Reading this section as a whole, it appears that even in-training apprentices have lives outside the College. Acolytes and above will have more freedom.

N.B. A glaring omission in the ToM is any reference to wizards having marital and family lives. I think we can assume that this is permitted.

Let’s expand on the example first given:

Fredric a Bright Order apprentice is six months into his year long field-experience. He completes his apprentice career and his Dedication Bonus. However, these are game terms, Fredric doesn't think like this. Fredric feels he has perfected the skills his master taught him, but he hasn’t completed his year yet so he can’t return to Altdolf for further study. So he asks his Dwarf Soldier friend to train his martial skills. At this point the player has two options to reflect Fredric’s new training, invest in non-career advances or change career to Soldier.

Case 1 (non-career advances):

• Discipline - 2 Advances
• Ride - 2 Advances
• Characteristic Toughness (4) – 5 Advances
• Total = 9

Case 2 (career change):

Soldier Career is Basic and so shares one trait. This makes the transition cost base 3. Completing the apprentice career reduces this by one, as does being a Reiklander. So the transition would cost 1 advance. So alternatively:

• Transition to Soldier - 1 Advance
• Discipline – 1 Advance
• Ride - 1 Advance
• Wound Threshold - 1 Advance
• Fortune Die (Willpower) - 1 Advance
• Characteristic Toughness (4) – 4 Advances
• Total = 9

For a mere 3 more advances more Fredric can complete a Soldier career.

Even if he doesn’t manage to complete this career before the year is up, he can return to Apprentice career for free (as he is a Reiklander) and then move to Acolyte for free. Everything he has gained as a soldier is of benefit to a future battle wizard.

In summary:

• How exactly a player invests his advances is a Metagame concept – characters in the Old World cannot see character sheets, they do not think in game terms
• While ‘on-the-road’ investing advances in non-magical areas is both rational and organic
• Only players perceive the difference between transitioning career and investing in non-career advances. It isn’t possible for even the subject– it certainly isn’t perceptible to people sitting in Altdorf while the subject is hunting down Orks in the Black Mountains.
• Colleges forbidding side-careers therefore involves Metagame perception and is a nonsense
  

I agree with all what you've presented in principle (that of taking side jobs), yet you've got to bear in mind that the rulebooks are written and focused towards the mavericks, the special ones, the few and far between wizards that make something of themselves outside of the Colleges.

In essence, I mostly disagree with the generalization that all wizards follow the PC's career path. But I whole-heartedly agree with the statement that PC's are free to explore side jobs, adventures and other avenues of employment aside from serving the Colleges. It'd make for a horrible game otherwise, and I think it helps differentiate the PC's.

A College of Magic is, in fact, very similar to the religious orders. Being a wizard in WFRP is as much a vocation as being a priest is. They are pretty tightly controlled and watched, especially at lower levels. They are expected (and probably need to) spend most of their time studying, practicing, and controlling the magick. A wizard who is not doing this, but is instead spending all their time training in weapons or other pursuits, is not highly regarded. In fact, they would probably be regarded as suspicious if not downright dangerously unstable.

While a career change could possibly be accomplished, technically, without leaving the College, the PC should face intense scrutiny from his superiors as to why they weren't showing the proper dedication to the art that is expected of them. Chances are, although he didn't technically leave the College, by changing careers the College might kick him out themselves ... or when the time comes to switch back to the new wizard career, the PC can't find a wizard willing to mentor him. In essence, he'd be a pariah in the College. He'd be viewed with suspicion, distrust, and even outright loathing (by many). Should he manage to convince someone to mentor him, I would expect that the mentor would disdain the PC, would feel that he had to reteach the PC basic magick tasks that had gotten rusty (while the PC was 'learning other stuff'), etc.. Also, I would expect a mentor to severely curtail any adventuring for a long while, to keep his new student in a proper 'studious' environment so the PC can concentrate back on magick, etc.

dvang said:

That's all well and good for sticking to the setting lore, but how is a player supposed to roleplay a character that is stuck in training for 6 months to a year? Even if a player stays in the Wizard path (and FFG releases higher level stuff before the character has nowhere to go), the character advancement pace of 10 advances in a career plus 1 for the Dedication bonus doesn't jibe with the lore. A PC can mechanically rise very quickly through the Wizard careers. By the lore, this is something that should take years and is done by long hours of study and practice, not adventuring. To be true to the lore, your game would require a lot of downtime between sessions to rationalize the character improving his wizardly skills and learning new spells, something that works for an episodic campaign where each session is a self contained adventure, but might be less suitable for other style campaigns.

"In order to reacquaint them with the outside world and to have them prove that they have the wherewithal to survive, apprentices are often required to spend a period of time outside the College halls. Many masters also require of their apprentices some kind of quest or favour before they officially end their training, and this mission usually goes hand in hand with living by their own wits." (ToM, pg 43). This could be the basis for a campaign. The Wizard recruits the other characters to help him fulfill his quest. There's nothing that indicates how long these quests should take and it is possible that a quest could take months or years. Along the way the character may pursue other worldly training as "wizard need to be as worldly and self-sufficient as other characters" (ToM, pg 41). The character is not truly pursuing another career as much as they are picking up experience and rounding out their skill set. Once the character returns to his master, as long as they have proof that the quest has been completed, his master should welcome him back and continue his training. To me this still requires a bit of downtime while the master imparts the fundamentals of the "next level" of training, after which a new quest may be necessary to send the wizard back out into the world. At this point he may have learned, but cannot reliably cast any new spells. As he goes about his new quest (adventures), he practices the new spells his master taught him. At some point (when the player invests the advance into taking a new spell action card), he has practiced enough to cast the spell reliably and can use it at will going forward. In short, you have to rationalize the lore with the realities of game play.

Lexicanum said:

I disagree. It removes the entire charm of the career system, and turns it into generic classes and templates. Is the difference between Soldier and Mercenary that one fights out of loyalty or duty, and the other for money, or are they merely variations of the Warrior class? Is a Troll Slayer really on a death quest, or is it merely an excuse for cool punk hair and awesome combat ability?

I ran into the same problem ages ago with the first edition. For new characters, their career is basically what they did before they became adventurers. But after that? As long as they move into a career that's basically an advanced version of their basic career, there's not much of a problem, but what if there's no obvious follow-up career? Do you try to explain the career change, or is it really just a template to milk for good stats?

I don't like throwing the charm of the career system away, but I also have trouble explaining career changes when all the PCs are really doing is adventuring. After some time, their career is really just Adventurer, but that's a bit too broad. I remember creating a custom Treasure Hunter career for someone.

Another option that might work very well in 3rd edition is to restart the same career. Now you're a really, really experienced Boatman, and you can pick a new set of actions, talents, skills and abilities. That would allow characters to grow indefinitely without running out of suitable careers.

As for the Wizard who wants to pick up some combat skill, if he just asks a party member to train him, he can pick them up as out-of-career skills. If he really wants to become a Soldier, he really has to serve in an army. Perhaps Mercenary is easier: adventurers do lots of dirty jobs for money, don't they?

So which of the current careers are really "adventuring careers"? Mercenary obviously (unlike Soldier or Watchman). I can definitely see an adventurer serving as Agent for some distant patron who has an interest in all this. Agitator possibly if the adventure involves uncovering corruption among the ruling classes and the adventurer feels strongly about that. But a career like Boatman? Only if you're playing Death on the Reik .

Perhaps this is a better statement: The career sheet works as a template for the motivations, state of mind, skill set and general ambitions of the character, or should at any rate. Hence why advancement opportunities are based off the career sheet, reflecting the impact the career has on the character at a social and mental level.

I'm not going to be worrying about a character acting like a Commoner, Ratcatcher, Boatman, etc... Characters are by definition breaking the mold. The career is a stereotype that the character starts from and a stereotype that the character feeds off on for further advances. And like most stereotypes the character can fit it to a T or deviate significantly from it while only adhering to it a basic level.

@mac40k

That's all well and good for sticking to the setting lore, but how is a player supposed to roleplay a character that is stuck in training for 6 months to a year?

They don't. That character is retired for a period of game time while their mentor keeps them restricted. It's a drawback to radically changing your character's career away and then back again.

To be true to the lore, your game would require a lot of downtime between sessions to rationalize the character improving his wizardly skills and learning new spells

Of course. This is always true in most games, D&D included. It is assumed in spare moments at camp, on the road, etc, that the wizard is studying and practicing to maintain and improve their abilities. Hence, being able to "level" at a certain threshold of experience. WFRP is better at portraying this, since you can improve as you progress, but the concept is still the same. Now, if the wizard is spending all their free time learning a completely new trade, such as being a ratcatcher, then they aren't keeping up with their magical abilities/training.

I would also submit, that adventuring provides more experience and practical knowledge than sitting in a room studying from books. This is part of the reason that the Colleges give out quests (also to test their mettle and ability to handle themselves in difficult situations, etc). So, training that could take 6 months in book study, might only take 3-4 months in field work. Of course, this assumes the Wizard is actively working on improving their knowledge of their abilities. So, they still need to focus their study. Controlling the Winds of Magic is not an easy task, and it is something that a Wizard cannot just turn off. It is always there, and always affecting the wizard.

To the Colleges, being a wizard is the foremost thing in the world. This should be all that you want to be, all that you should be. Anything less, and you are suspect. Perhaps you've been lured away by Chaos, perhaps you aren't dedicated enough, etc. If they don't outright kill you or kick you out, then at best you're a pariah in the College. It is a fundamental concept to the Colleges that all wizards should care enough to dedicate themselves to the control of their powers for the good of the Empire. This means constant and continuous improvement in their wizardly abilities, and nothing less will do.

Time in this system, as in most RPGs, is quite malleable. It's quite possible to have the characters involved in a detailed adventure that takes several sessions of game play that occurs over the span of just a few days of game world time. Sticking to the average of 1 XP per session, a wizard could complete an entire "level" of training in a two week span, far less than even the 3-4 months of field training Dvang proposes. This just doesn't jibe with the setting material. If you want to be strict enough to say that once a Wizard, it's either up or nothing, then as of right now you have to retire after completing Acolyte or house rule higher level careers and spells. This will change when the magic supplement comes out, but until then I'd rather a player not be penalized for choosing to play a wizard.

I'm not suggesting that a PC that wants to dabble in Mercenary is actually "leaving" his College to pursue another career. He's just found himself in in-game circumstances where he is either employed by a Mercenary company or working with his fellow adventurers in some mercenary-like capacity. He's still casting spells and practicing what he already knows, but he's not learning new spells or advancing his wizard career/studies at the moment. Instead, due to his current circumstances, he's improving himself in other ways. I'm no Olympic athlete, but when I hit the gym regularly, my strength, flexibility, and endurance improve. My career didn't change, just how I'm spending more of my off work hours. A wizard finding himself working as a Mercenary could see his Strength improve as well as possibly become trained in Athletics. Now if the PC says, "Screw the College, I ain't never goin' back," that is quite a bit different and then all the setting effects of that decision kick in including being hunted down and probably slain, but a brief dalliance in another career with every intention of continuing his wizardly training at the earliest opportunity is something else. All I'm saying is that the realities of playing the game force you to rationalize some of the strictly setting based career progression/transition stuff. If I'm expected to rationalize how a PC can complete months or years of training in just a few days or weeks, I can rationalize that he finds ways to improve himself in other areas as well without resorting to formally leaving/renouncing his College.

I see no issues with mages switching to other careers, because I find it perfectly fine for a mage to take up a sword and learn how to fight in the warhammer world. Otherwise I doubt any mage on the road would live long enough to ever accomplish anything.

Gallows said:

I agree and look at it the way it was describe back in v2 RoS. A college mage in a different career is still a college mage. Only if the mage in question leaves the college might they come after him.

On the orders of his master, Fredric the Bright Order apprentice was seconded to the 1st Imperial Dragoons for the duration of their campaign against greenskin tribes in the Black mountains. As was usual and befitted for a College apprentice, Fredric received a temporary commission into the Imperial army with the rank of Cornet.

During this costly but successful campaign Fredric distinguished himself, learning how best to use his magical skills on the battlefield – skills which were exercised frequently throughout the campaign.

Fredric settled into cavalry life, becoming a skilled horseman. He overcame initial anxieties to become a trusted member of his unit. While guarding a supply fort his unit came under heavy attack. Fredric demonstrated leadership ability during this encounter and great courage in the face of the enemy. He received a field promotion to Lieutenant and went on to lead a number of successful missions. He returned home with a glowing report from his commanding officer, praising both his arcane and mundane military skills.

Fredric reported to his master eager to start is Acolyte training. Unfortunately his master had him executed for abandoning his wizardly vocation…

- What’s wrong with this story?

*******************************************************

When we play a roleplaying we need to have game mechanics to model character progression. The primary purpose of these mechanics is not to model learning and development in the most accurate way possible – the purpose is to serve enjoyment of the game.

The mechanics of progression in rpgs do lead to some fairly absurd results. A PC can advance more in a few days than an NPC can in a year. There are two principle ways of dealing with this – suspend disbelief or assume this is the reality of the universe the setting exists within.

I choose to suspend disbelief. The WFRP game mechanic of ‘career’ is great feature of the game. However, it is game mechanic that shouldn’t intrude itself heavily into the setting. WFRP career transitions should flow naturally from the reality that surrounds a character. But imo they should be treated as the game tools they are - largely abstractions.

To run a game where the game mechanics of ‘career’ transitions are palpable enough to be recognised by the characters themselves, would be odd and unwelcome to me.

Ymmv of course.

Fresnel said:

I don't really support that. One of the great things about WFRP generally is that the career system not only works as an ooc system progress mechanic, but also as a great ic setting informer. Eg, ratcatchers really are called ratcatchers in the game and really do catch rats, etc. So when, for example, a soldier PC gets promoted to captain, in game, it can also coincide with the character changing from the soldier career to the captain career.

Of course, it doesn't always work like that and it's not always possible to map the system to setting so exactly, hence this discussion.

monkeylite said:

Yes, I should have written "always palpable enough to be recognised by the characters themselves".

However, I'd also note that PC ratcatchers might rarely catch rats in the course of an adventuring life - from which advances come. So in reality a PC 'ratcatcher' completes his 'career' by doing adventuring, not catching rats. Similarly ranks in the army (particular in a medieval period) don't always follow from experience or ability... An army captain in the Old World may well be a Dilettante in WFRP game terms.

@mac40k

<sigh> Good grief. The 3-4 months mention I made was a total abstraction off the top of my head for learning "something", not necessarily even leveling. Most NPC wizards spend decades "levelling up". The PCs are an exception to the rule. Even so, your example of gaining enough XP in a two-week span to level is an extreme in an of itself. It is rare that 10 sessions of play represent two weeks of time. Most adventures take 2-3 sessions. Most adventures also span several days. Most adventures are set at least a few days apart, if not longer. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it isn't the norm ... but then, as I said, the PCs themselves and their leveling ability is not the norm for the Warhammer world. You need to think about NPCs and how they "level" as the standard.

I certainly understand what you're saying, and why. Especially without the higher wizard career cards in the game as of yet. However, the fact remains that being a wizard of a College is a life-long choice. To do otherwise will sour your relationship with the College.

...He's still casting spells and practicing what he already knows, but he's not learning new spells or advancing his wizard career/studies at the moment. Instead, due to his current circumstances, he's improving himself in other ways. I'm no Olympic athlete, but when I hit the gym regularly, my strength, flexibility, and endurance improve. My career didn't change, just how I'm spending more of my off work hours.

Then the wizard/you can purchase those new skills as non-career advances should he want to remain a wizard. If he changes careers, then he is no longer technically a wizard. An example: You are a computer programmer. You spend 8 hours a day at your job programming on a computer. Then, when your company is ready to promote you to a senior programmer, you decide you want to be a lifeguard. You now spend 8 hours a day sitting in a chair watching a pool full of kids. You occasionally get a chance during your breaks, and some off-hours, to type some stuff into a computer. You've changed careers. Now, after a lot of time away from a computer because you are a lifeguard, you go back to your old company and ask/demand the senior programmer position they offered previously. Do they give it to you no-questions asked? Or, would they be a bit skeptical, since you've spent the vast majority of your time while away by getting a tan? That's not to say it couldn't be done, but they'd need to test you, perhaps put you on a probationary status or at your old position for a while before promoting you, etc. Also, unlike this quasi-real world example, WFRP Colleges of Magic are a 'close-knit' society. This is what changing a career is ... exactly what it says. Not picking up additional skills while still working at your current job.

@Gallows
I see no issues with mages switching to other careers, because I find it perfectly fine for a mage to take up a sword and learn how to fight in the warhammer world. Otherwise I doubt any mage on the road would live long enough to ever accomplish anything.

Nothing is stopping the wizard from learning to fight. There are non-career advances the wizard can take, to pick up, say Weapon Skill training.

@Fresnel
...Fredric reported to his master eager to start is Acolyte training. Unfortunately his master had him executed for abandoning his wizardly vocation…

Death is an extreme example, probably only if corruption is suspected really. Consider instead ...
"Fredric reported to his master eager to start is Acolyte training. His master looks over the accounts given, and frowns. The Master sees that too little of Fredric's time has been spent studying the arcane and honing his arcane skills, instead spent learning mundane tasks. Fredric would need a refresher course. This assumes, of course, the Master thinks, Frederic is actually serious about studying magic instead of dabbling in more mundane activies like he has been doing. The Master decides that Frederic needs some time in solitary meditation and study, and a long time being evaluated, to make sure Frederic was still dedicated to the College and improving his magical skills."

Not so implausible, and in fact (IMO) quite likely a scenario.

I also agree with Monkeylite ... careers are actually pretty close to what the PC actually is supposed to 'do' for a living. A Roadwarden guards the roads (primarily) for the Empire, operating as a sort of policeman. A Ratcatcher catches rats and/or other vermin. Etc. There might be times when there is a slight abstraction for the PCs, especially when changing careers (unless the GM imposes roleplay restrictions), but it is not normally how the careers are supposed to work. They are not broad "classes" like in other RPGs. That's why there are so many of them.

The primary point that I am trying to make is that, IMO, it should *not* be easy for a Wizard or Priest to leave their career path, go do something else, and then come back to it. Consider a Slayer. Could a Trollslayer, when he's ready to advance, go be a different career for a while ... a ratcatcher, scribe, or something quite different from a Trollslayer, and then after finishing ratcatcher/scribe/etc easily start up with Giantslayer right away? No, IMO, he should not. Wizards and Priests are similar. It is a life-long choice to be those careers, and only extremely rare circumstances would allow it to be otherwise. Changing careers is just that ... changing careers. It is not dabbling in a new field or picking up a few additional skills outside of the career norms. That is what the non-career advances are for. Changing careers is just that ... changing your career. If you want your wizard to work with mercenaries and learn swordwork, then buy Weaponskill training as a non-career advance. Buy an action card that isn't a spell, but instead is a melee action. Etc. All of what you are proposing can be done "in-career" without leaving. Until we get additional advanced wizard/priest career cards, I'd suggest just re-using the basic career cards (just treat them as advanced for advancement purposes). Give the career ability the bonus for the next rank of spells/blessings, etc. Simple enough.

I don't have an issue with a PC leaving a wizard/priest career, or starting the career at a later rank. I do have an issue with a PC leaving and coming back, with seemingly no problems or worries. It should be a tough roleplaying experience to give up one of these vocations (and by changing careers you *are* giving it up IMO) and then return.

This issue is obviously not a rules question, but rather a question of how one perceives the careers. Comparing the WHFRP careers to real-life careers is pointless if the person you're discussing with thinks that the careers are abstractions. For me the careers are somewhere in between, and it depends a lot on the background/personality the player has thought up for his character. Anyway, if you feel that wizards changing careers is not fitting for the setting then feel free to play it that way (and hope that none of your players has strong feelings about it).

For me it's GM interpretation that decides. In general I really dislike rules (or, for that matter, ideas about the setting) that limit player imagination. If a player has nice ideas on how he wants his character to progress (in the roleplaying sense) I think the GM should work with him to make sure that it fits with the campaign and setting, not just say no automatically.

I would say that roughly 90% of the careers are relevant for adventuring. The rest are not. How can you get it to work RP-wise that a player can advance as, e.g., a Scribe when out adventuring without accepting that the careers are abstractions? Of course, this depends on what type of encounters you use.

I agree that Slayer careers should be limited to slayers only (but note that it is my interpretation and opinion, not a rule). I personally don't think the same should be true for Wizards. To me the colleges are not really "close-knit" societies, at least not once the wizard has passed apprenticeship. If the wizard is out adventuring and picks up a Mercenary career while out, there is no reason the College would even find it out, they cannot get upset by what they don't know.

dvang said:

"It seemed to Fredric that his master was losing his mind. The study materials Fredric brought with him he had studied. His arcane skills were honed in battle and exercised daily. The idea that Fredric in any way neglected his arcane skills was utterly absurd. His life and the lives of his comrades depended on them. He was twice the wizard he had been when he left.

However, Fredric exercise the disciple he had learnt and kept these thoughts to himself. He would pass any test his master cared to put before him. He would be the greatest Battle Wizard of his age, it was his destiny."

I have nothing further to add. We'll have to agree to disagee on this.