I just hate that Unguided Rockets cannot be modified by external sources. Give us some **** synergy and make Captain Jonus sort of relevant.

23 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

I just hate that Unguided Rockets cannot be modified by external sources. Give us some **** synergy and make Captain Jonus sort of relevant.

So true, I get why they are conservative here and I appreciate it, but ultimately there is worse things to break the game with than TIE Bombers. I don't even think Guidance Chips would have been that bad. Anyhow, the way they are right now they are nice. Not overwhelming, but at least nothing you can't put on the table and I like how they offer an entirely different way to play the Bombers.

1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

I just hate that Unguided Rockets cannot be modified by external sources. Give us some **** synergy and make Captain Jonus sort of relevant.

The main reason is price. This is bargain 2 points. It's so cheap because of the Attack (Focus) restriction, that you can only use a focus to modify and it takes up two of your Missile slots. I only know of one way to add one to your primary attack to one ship and that's the Punishing One title - a massive 12 points. Obviously a completely different calculation being a turret and no downsides but still the cost of a simple +1 attack we can assume is huge.

To me Unguided Rockets is all about boosting the Empire's bombers - they can boost their attack, take LWF and also drop (non-action) bombs making them a lot tougher. The TIE Punisher in particular with LWF is virtually guaranteed that extra agility. You can use action bombs if you have General Hux or Fleet Officer to get that focus and Deathfire can launch action bombs for free so he can act independently.

5 hours ago, heychadwick said:

You are only half right. They are worse than a 3 attack die main weapon at Range 1, but they are better than a 3 attack die weapon at Range 3. They do deny the extra green die.

They are not high precision attacks and thus I am not half right, but fully right. I explicitly did not compared them to general 3 dice attacks ;-)
3 attack die only modified by focus is equal not much better than modified 2 attack dice (worse on R1 actually) and thus those unguided rockets give you the firepower of mindlink M3As or a Howlrunner TIE-Swarm. The only case in which those missiles are slightly ahead is against agi 3 ships with focus token on range three, which ironically is the kind of setup which usually comes with autothrusters and makes range 3 shots in general terribly inefficient, so we are talking about 0,0x average damage advantages for that case, while we are talking about 0.x damage advantages or even 300 to 500% in case for that R1 shots. ;-)

Now compared to single modified 3 attack dice ... they should do ok, and bombers should profit greatly from this cheap upgrade, less so imho on 5 ship lists, but you can take 4 bombers with actual bombs or torpedos and still have a solid generic attack and can use target locks to prepare for close range torpedo shots when someone arc dodges you for example. Actually advanced proton torpedoes might be not a complete waste on those bombers with LF frame, the weakness of range 1 shots becomes your strength, at least if you guessed right on whom to target lock.

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

They are not high precision attacks and thus I am not half right, but fully right. I explicitly did not compared them to general 3 dice attacks ;-)
3 attack die only modified by focus is equal not much better than modified 2 attack dice (worse on R1 actually) and thus those unguided rockets give you the firepower of mindlink M3As or a Howlrunner TIE-Swarm. The only case in which those missiles are slightly ahead is against agi 3 ships with focus token on range three, which ironically is the kind of setup which usually comes with autothrusters and makes range 3 shots in general terribly inefficient, so we are talking about 0,0x average damage advantages for that case, while we are talking about 0.x damage advantages or even 300 to 500% in case for that R1 shots. ;-)

Now compared to single modified 3 attack dice ... they should do ok, and bombers should profit greatly from this cheap upgrade, less so imho on 5 ship lists, but you can take 4 bombers with actual bombs or torpedos and still have a solid generic attack and can use target locks to prepare for close range torpedo shots when someone arc dodges you for example. Actually advanced proton torpedoes might be not a complete waste on those bombers with LF frame, the weakness of range 1 shots becomes your strength, at least if you guessed right on whom to target lock.

I don't understand your argument.

Rau or Soontir firing at R3 get 3 red dice, but the enemy can add one extra green die. They get a Focus or TL (Rau) to modify their dice. The Rockets fire 3 red dice at R3 and can modify their dice with a Focus. They don't give the enemy an extra green. Rockets are superior to normal 3 dice attack at Range 3. Autothrusters are irrelevant as they affect both people shooting.

13 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I don't understand your argument.

Rau or Soontir firing at R3 get 3 red dice, but the enemy can add one extra green die. They get a Focus or TL (Rau) to modify their dice. The Rockets fire 3 red dice at R3 and can modify their dice with a Focus. They don't give the enemy an extra green. Rockets are superior to normal 3 dice attack at Range 3. Autothrusters are irrelevant as they affect both people shooting.

The argument is that you get a hundredths of a damage point over a standard attack at range 3, while losing over 100 times more damage on the range 1 shots and losing as well damage on the R2 shots. The advantage the missiles have is strictly not worth the disadvantages they have.

If we play a dice game and you win a dollar on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 rolled, while I get 50 dollar from you on a six and we have to play at least 20 rounds than the game is clearly in my advantage.

The missiles are still a nice boost for the ships which can carry them, but they are strictly worse than the defacto standard of double modified 3 dice primary weapon attacks.

And btw, without a defensive focus token a double modified 3 dice attack is superior to 3 dice. Removing the extra defensive dice is not enough to compensate for the lack of precision in the shot. So those rockets are not even superior to normal 3 dice attacks at range 3 unless the target has lots of agility and a defensive focus token. And than we are talking about a superiority which still accounts for nearly no damage, because you are unlikely to hit in those cases either way. The superiority extends to cases when you don't do damage anyway. ;-)

edit: And on top of that you may trigger LF instead of the range bonus which means 2 dice attack with focus + TL might actually be indeed the superior choice in R1 and R2.

59 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

The argument is that you get a hundredths of a damage point over a standard attack at range 3, while losing over 100 times more damage on the range 1 shots and losing as well damage on the R2 shots. The advantage the missiles have is strictly not worth the disadvantages they have.

Ah, you are weighing the R1 attack bonus higher than the R3 attack bonus. I understand what you are saying, but don't subscribe to that perspective.

17 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Ah, you are weighing the R1 attack bonus higher than the R3 attack bonus. I understand what you are saying, but don't subscribe to that perspective.

No. I am weighting the extra damage at R1, R2 and even R3 higher than the small extra damage in Agi 2/3 + Focus token at Range 3. Double modified primary attacks are that much stronger than single modified R3 secondary attacks.

edit: And with small I mean basically equal damage if we round to 0.x numbers. ;-)

Just a random observation....

If the mechanics defined in the UR were used to replace the text listed for the Blaster Turret, I'd be ecstatic. Imagine a Moldy Crow 3-dice attack that doesn't require you to USE the focus token to fire it but instead to modify the attack roll.

The only imp ships I really see benefitting from these things are Tie Adv with title and the F/O's that need TL's. These things are clown shoes for real bombers.

2 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

The only imp ships I really see benefitting from these things are Tie Adv with title and the F/O's that need TL's. These things are clown shoes for real bombers.

Unguided Rockets need two Missile slots so can only be taken on Bombers, Punishers and the upcoming Aggressor. Advanced only have one Missile slot and FOs have none at all.

2 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

Unguided Rockets need two Missile slots so can only be taken on Bombers, Punishers and the upcoming Aggressor. Advanced only have one Missile slot and FOs have none at all.

My bad thought F/O's did for some reason. 2 slots you say? Wow.

1 minute ago, LordFajubi said:

My bad thought F/O's did for some reason. 2 slots you say? Wow.

Yeah I think that's one of the reasons they're so cheap

3 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

Yeah I think that's one of the reasons they're so cheap

I'm guessing this is an attempt to say look you can fill 2 missle slots because even with EM nobody does, costs too much in a 100 point squad. So you could get 2 of these for 4 cost and 3 slots used. Ordnance has cost so much for so long for what reason then? They could have done this effect long ago by making munitions just cheaper period. Just kind of wowed on this.

2 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

I'm guessing this is an attempt to say look you can fill 2 missle slots because even with EM nobody does, costs too much in a 100 point squad. So you could get 2 of these for 4 cost and 3 slots used. Ordnance has cost so much for so long for what reason then? They could have done this effect long ago by making munitions just cheaper period. Just kind of wowed on this.

No need for EM on them, they aren't discarded (other than by boba fett/munitions failure)

9 minutes ago, DeathstarII said:

No need for EM on them, they aren't discarded (other than by boba fett/munitions failure)

I should read cards better missed that no discard clause. Ok the 2 slots is still crap but I like not discarding them.

I shouldn't have gotten on the forums today, been punchy and jumped to too many conclusions. Apologies for the derpy posts friends.

You guys are looking at these the wrong way, they are designed to be something you slap on your big fancy ace to make them even more badass, they are for the cheap generic ships who are unlikely to get any mods other than their one focus token anyway. For example take a Scimitar, put on these and LWH and it's at twenty points even meaning you can cram five of them in to a list for a total of thirty hull points behind 2.5 agility throwing a combined total of fifteen red dice a turn. That's a hell of a lot of TIE to have to chew through while taking all that fire. Or you stick it on a dedicated bomber who's upgrades are all geared towards his bombs, again you are unlikely to have more then a focus token at any given time because your points were spent elsewhere but now for two points and slots that you weren't using anyway you are able to do a good bit more to contribute once all your bombs are deployed. These aren't about radically increasing the punch power of a single super ship, they are about a small improvement for cheap that's adds up over time when you account for the rest of the build.

Are they the best ordnance ever? Not even close.

Are they best ordnance you can put on the ships that can actually equip it? I still don't think so.

A worse than 3 dice attack at a cost of 2 more on ships that are already 2+ points overcosted isn't good. It's better but better isn't really saying much when your floor is what is widely considered the worst Imperial ship in the game and one that's probably tied for 2nd or third worst.

Will it work? I really really hope I'm wrong when I say no. I don't think I'm wrong...

...still going to fly Deathrain, Deathfire, and Tomax with them just because I can.

8 hours ago, Princezilla said:

You guys are looking at these the wrong way, they are not designed to be something you slap on your big fancy ace to make them even more badass, they are for the cheap generic ships...

Given the context of what you appear to being saying, I added the missing word for you.

11 hours ago, Rakky Wistol said:

Are they the best ordnance ever? Not even close.

Are they best ordnance you can put on the ships that can actually equip it? I still don't think so.

A worse than 3 dice attack at a cost of 2 more on ships that are already 2+ points overcosted isn't good. It's better but better isn't really saying much when your floor is what is widely considered the worst Imperial ship in the game and one that's probably tied for 2nd or third worst.

Will it work? I really really hope I'm wrong when I say no. I don't think I'm wrong...

...still going to fly Deathrain, Deathfire, and Tomax with them just because I can.

Just give your bombers proton torpedoes, or, better yet, don't play imps and just put down your tie fighters and use the HotR expansion.

I think the real winners of Unguided Rockets will be Imperial ships with Bombs. Unguided Rockets, Lightweight Frame, and Bombs all sort of work together. UG and bombs don't use Guidance Chips or LRS, so their mod slot is free for the very useful Lightweight Frame. This makes them both punchy and tough for the points, while possessing utility in the form of bombs. Furthermore, bombs are obviously nastier up close, which is where Unguided Rockets are weakest.

56 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think the real winners of Unguided Rockets will be Imperial ships with Bombs. Unguided Rockets, Lightweight Frame, and Bombs all sort of work together. UG and bombs don't use Guidance Chips or LRS, so their mod slot is free for the very useful Lightweight Frame. This makes them both punchy and tough for the points, while possessing utility in the form of bombs. Furthermore, bombs are obviously nastier up close, which is where Unguided Rockets are weakest.

Maybe I'm just a super unlucky person but I've had the worst experience with Lightweight Frame. Without the ability to get more than one defensive token (focus in most cases) it has rarely paid off. I even took a dual SF w/ Lightweight Frame to a local seasonal tournament (playing 4 games) and it never produced an evade result for either SF. If the SFs had a focus token the Lightweight Frame die turned up blank. Or, the Lightweight Frame die was not needed since the native 2 agility dice dodged the attack.

Take-away for me was paying 2 points (or 4 if you have two ships using Lightweight Frame) just isn't worth it unless you can get additional defensive tokens a.k.a. fleet officer, Hux, or Expertise (keep the token for defense).

I've had plenty of games where Autothusters never kicked in. I wouldn't write them off, either.

1 hour ago, kris40k said:

I've had plenty of games where Autothusters never kicked in. I wouldn't write them off, either.

He still has a point in regards of focus. 3+ evade dice are great with focus, but fall off without focus. Guided missiles can only be modified by focus and require to have an focus token, so spending that focus defensively will hurt your offensive powers massively, while without the focus token you are paying a lot of points on LF frame with little effect. Now fleet officer can mitigate this problem somewhat. If only the TIE/SF would have a crew slot. ;-)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Fleet Officer (3)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE Shuttle (0)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

34 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

He still has a point in regards of focus. 3+ evade dice are great with focus, but fall off without focus. Guided missiles can only be modified by focus and require to have an focus token, so spending that focus defensively will hurt your offensive powers massively, while without the focus token you are paying a lot of points on LF frame with little effect. Now fleet officer can mitigate this problem somewhat. If only the TIE/SF would have a crew slot. ;-)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Fleet Officer (3)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE Shuttle (0)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Here's the thing, only one of those Scimitars is likely to be targeted each turn. That one spends its Focus on defense and the other 4 spend it on attack.