2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Even if token attackers (Carnor, Wes, HotCoP, Palob, Teroch etc etc) aren't on the board, and they're common enough to be a worry, blocks, red moves, debris, conner nets, double stressers, etc etc etc all happn, not to mention needing to spend your token to avoid dying.

Oh, just to comment on Carnor.....he doesn't prevent you from using Rockets. If he's in R1 when it's time for your action, you can't do a Focus to get it, but if you have a Focus token and you are in R1 of Carnor, you can still fire the Rockets. You can't modify them, but you can still fire them.

I also think that all these guys that you mention are usually people who are used on the main ships in your list. Normally, you have heavy hitters besides whatever has the Rockets. Are their Carnor, Wes, HotCP, Palob, and Teroch going to be using their abilities on the ship with Rockets? Maybe it's worth it if it saves your heavy hitter the attention?

Even getting 3/2.5/6/0 I'm not sure is worth 20 points. Cartel Marauders and Zealous Recruits aren't exactly lighting up the meta, and this has better durability than the recruits and about the same as the marauders (one shield being roughly the same as 2 hull, and LWF being better than 2 dice, but not by much). And you're not getting that stat line, you're getting something slightly worse, and a way worse dial than the Fang, albeit a bit better for jousting.

My rough guess is that a Scimitar with UR and LWF about the same value and efficiency as getting a Cartel Marauder or a Zealous Recruit. And who uses those?

7 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Yes, but many of those situations are....well....situational. They don't happen all that often if you are avoiding them. As stated further in the same quote, you can always put in one of the numerous crew that can give you a Focus token if it's that big a deal.

Even if you lose the Focus for defense, you can still attack with main weapons. Sure, you can't use the Rockets, but it's not like you lose the ability to attack. It's only 2 pts.

As for cost, look at the Scimitar pilot. He's 16 pts. Adding 2 more to make his main attack a 3 is worth it, even with those chances of losing the Focus.

Yeah, I'm looking at Scimitar Pilot. It's bad. And spending 2pts to turn it into a bad Kihraxz Fighter isn't going to convince me of very much at all.

1 minute ago, heychadwick said:

Oh, just to comment on Carnor.....he doesn't prevent you from using Rockets. If he's in R1 when it's time for your action, you can't do a Focus to get it, but if you have a Focus token and you are in R1 of Carnor, you can still fire the Rockets. You can't modify them, but you can still fire them.

I also think that all these guys that you mention are usually people who are used on the main ships in your list. Normally, you have heavy hitters besides whatever has the Rockets. Are their Carnor, Wes, HotCP, Palob, and Teroch going to be using their abilities on the ship with Rockets? Maybe it's worth it if it saves your heavy hitter the attention?

He stops you GETTING the focus in the first place, was my point.

As regards the heavy hitters... what are you thinking a list here will look like? A Defender, a /sf and a UR Scimitar?

I think it's a good point actually. A lot of the discussion focusses on the as a swarm of 5, but it's more realistic to think where they fit into other lists.

3 of them with an expensive ace? 2 of them with a Deci or two pocket aces? Tomax using them as an enhanced primary?

I just struggle to see where they're going to work. Aggressors will be using TLT for their offense which are WAY more damaging, so we're looking at bombers and punishers. Both of them get admirable efficiency increases out of these with LWF, but do they get enough?

Just now, SOTL said:

Yeah, I'm looking at Scimitar Pilot. It's bad. And spending 2pts to turn it into a bad Kihraxz Fighter isn't going to convince me of very much at all.

Why do you think it is bad? Its efficiency is almost on the same level as the Academy TIE Fighter. And for just 2 points you get to increase its ability to attack to almost 3 dice levels... The theory sounds so nice. Of course, the Academy TIE has been outpowercrept, so it is questionable wether Unguided Rockets Scimitars are elevated enough to be relevant. But calling something on par with the Academy TIE bad is not really reasonable.

Just now, Admiral Deathrain said:

Why do you think it is bad? Its efficiency is almost on the same level as the Academy TIE Fighter. And for just 2 points you get to increase its ability to attack to almost 3 dice levels... The theory sounds so nice. Of course, the Academy TIE has been outpowercrept, so it is questionable wether Unguided Rockets Scimitars are elevated enough to be relevant. But calling something on par with the Academy TIE bad is not really reasonable.

Being 'almost' on the same level as something which has been 'outpowercrept' by your own admission is... being bad, I'm afraid.

9 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Why do you think it is bad? Its efficiency is almost on the same level as the Academy TIE Fighter. And for just 2 points you get to increase its ability to attack to almost 3 dice levels... The theory sounds so nice. Of course, the Academy TIE has been outpowercrept, so it is questionable wether Unguided Rockets Scimitars are elevated enough to be relevant. But calling something on par with the Academy TIE bad is not really reasonable.

Take a TIE Fighter. Remove it's best maneuvers and the barrel roll action most of the time. Remove an agility. Remove Howlrunner from the swarm. Now you're getting close to the right comparison.

You don't need to start with TIE Fighters, you can start with Kihraxz Fighters and unless Scimitars are LOTS better than naked Kihraxz then I wouldn't waste time with them.

12 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Yeah, I'm looking at Scimitar Pilot. It's bad. And spending 2pts to turn it into a bad Kihraxz Fighter isn't going to convince me of very much at all.

I see the disconnect. I don't think the Kihraxz Fighter is bad. I've flown it quite a bit. It's a very cheap ship that can lay down the fire, especially when you have 2-3 of them in a list. Yes, I recognize that they aren't taken in tournaments and won't see the top tables of Worlds. Doesn't mean it's a bad ship in the game, though. If you only focus on Tournament play, you miss out on a lot. Also, there have been people that have taken 5 Kihraxz's and done very well in store tournaments.

Also, a 18 pts for a Kihraxz? I'll take it!

11 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I think it's a good point actually. A lot of the discussion focusses on the as a swarm of 5, but it's more realistic to think where they fit into other lists.

I think Imperials are closer to being able to more of an All Purpose list in the style of Paul Heaver. They can have a number of different ships with different roles that all compliment each other. I think we are getting closer to that type of a list. Maybe not yet. There are more crew synergies then there were before for Imperials. Aggressor with TLT helps Imperials out a bit. You can just take one or two. Not sure on the Bomb stuff that will come out in the next wave that might make Punishers worthwhile.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Being 'almost' on the same level as something which has been 'outpowercrept' by your own admission is... being bad, I'm afraid.

I will agree that the tournament power creep will probably keep these things out of tournament play, but that doesn't mean it's a bad ship. If we only focused on tournament play, then 80% of the pilots and upgrades in this game are terrible.

27 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I see the disconnect. I don't think the Kihraxz Fighter is bad. I've flown it quite a bit. It's a very cheap ship that can lay down the fire, especially when you have 2-3 of them in a list. Yes, I recognize that they aren't taken in tournaments and won't see the top tables of Worlds. Doesn't mean it's a bad ship in the game, though. If you only focus on Tournament play, you miss out on a lot. Also, there have been people that have taken 5 Kihraxz's and done very well in store tournaments.

Ah ok. I don't see much point in continuing the discussion as we have completely different bases for what 'bad' means. You pretty much just described 'bad' but called it 'good'.

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

Ah ok. I don't see much point in continuing the discussion as we have completed different bases for what 'bad' means. You pretty much just described 'bad' but called it 'good'.

Yep. I tip my hat to you and hope you enjoy playing in tournaments.

I really think that the rockets are ok . That's really it. Sure, the three dice attack is good , but not great. If you want a really great attack like that, then just go for a higher attack dice ship. Bombers don't need this sort of thing cluttering their missile slots. A really great ship, I've found, is the Falcon, with Rey from HoTR and Finn as her crew, for a really devastating 5 dice attack at range one. (Not really 5 but with the +1 attack dice at range one and the added blank and Rey's ability, makes it basically 5 dice.) But good luck trying to use the rockets. I've never really seen them used before, but they're really just too cluttering and its really just an ok attack. Things that make bombers good are attacks like proton torpedoes with their 4 dice at range 2-3.

17 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I see the disconnect. I don't think the Kihraxz Fighter is bad. I've flown it quite a bit. It's a very cheap ship that can lay down the fire, especially when you have 2-3 of them in a list. Yes, I recognize that they aren't taken in tournaments and won't see the top tables of Worlds. Doesn't mean it's a bad ship in the game, though. If you only focus on Tournament play, you miss out on a lot. Also, there have been people that have taken 5 Kihraxz's and done very well in store tournaments.

Also, a 18 pts for a Kihraxz? I'll take it!

I think Imperials are closer to being able to more of an All Purpose list in the style of Paul Heaver. They can have a number of different ships with different roles that all compliment each other. I think we are getting closer to that type of a list. Maybe not yet. There are more crew synergies then there were before for Imperials. Aggressor with TLT helps Imperials out a bit. You can just take one or two. Not sure on the Bomb stuff that will come out in the next wave that might make Punishers worthwhile.

I will agree that the tournament power creep will probably keep these things out of tournament play, but that doesn't mean it's a bad ship. If we only focused on tournament play, then 80% of the pilots and upgrades in this game are terrible.

80% of the pilots and upgrades in this game ARE terrible. People being willing to use terrible upgrades and pilots outside tournaments doesn't change that, and it's rare that terrible upgrade or pilot will be sufficiently better in a mission/casual play context than a tournament context, to make it not be terrible in that context.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

80% of the pilots and upgrades in this game ARE terrible. People being willing to use terrible upgrades and pilots outside tournaments doesn't change that, and it's rare that terrible upgrade or pilot will be sufficiently better in a mission/casual play context than a tournament context, to make it not be terrible in that context.

I'll disagree with this as there are situations where ships that are bad in tournament do well in missions or Epic. Things like T-65's become good. They have a decent dial and good firepower without being too expensive. They can get to where you need them to and they can blast a few things to pieces. There are games where aces don't matter that much and a few named ships are destroyed by a horde of 3 attack die ships.

For example, if you have a mission that requires you to attack or defend different points on the board, you have to spread your forces out and be effective. You need a ship that can move there quick enough, survive more than one shot, and has enough firepower to do damage back. There are many times when numerous generics are far better than aces. There are many games where Soontir Fel is a terrible choice to take as he just can't dodge arcs....or...if he's not guarding the objective....or moving towards the objective, he's not earning his points.

There still is a space between terrible and OP good, though. And that is where Unguided Scimitars would fall, even on the higher end of that spectrum.

1 minute ago, heychadwick said:

I'll disagree with this as there are situations where ships that are bad in tournament do well in missions or Epic. Things like T-65's become good. They have a decent dial and good firepower without being too expensive. They can get to where you need them to and they can blast a few things to pieces. There are games where aces don't matter that much and a few named ships are destroyed by a horde of 3 attack die ships.

For example, if you have a mission that requires you to attack or defend different points on the board, you have to spread your forces out and be effective. You need a ship that can move there quick enough, survive more than one shot, and has enough firepower to do damage back. There are many times when numerous generics are far better than aces. There are many games where Soontir Fel is a terrible choice to take as he just can't dodge arcs....or...if he's not guarding the objective....or moving towards the objective, he's not earning his points.

Soontir Fel is also terrible in tournaments so

I don't disagree that there are contexts in which things outside the tournament meta are better in missions and epic, but playing outside tournaments is unlikely to make it worth, for instance, paying a point to get an Obsidian Squadron Pilot over an Academy pilot, or pretty much any of the similar '+2 init and nothing else for a point' mid PS generics, or using Lighting Reflexes or Adrenaline Rush or Cool Hand or Expose or... etc.

4 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

There still is a space between terrible and OP good, though. And that is where Unguided Scimitars would fall, even on the higher end of that spectrum.

I'll take a bet on that - they're WAY closer to the bottom of the spectrum than the top. Like, WAY closer. They wouldn't even have been good enough in 2015, let alone today.

19 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

80% of the pilots and upgrades in this game ARE terrible.

Nah, its more like 10% of pilots and upgrades are broken making everything else relatively look like trash.

Just cause FFG broke their game with OP **** like Fenn Rau, Jumpmasters, Sabine(crew), TLT's, etc. doesn't mean the other ships aren't worth flying.

Edit: Now, that doesn't mean that some ships and upgrades (Expose, Fel's Wrath) don't outright suck.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I don't disagree that there are contexts in which things outside the tournament meta are better in missions and epic, but playing outside tournaments is unlikely to make it worth, for instance, paying a point to get an Obsidian Squadron Pilot over an Academy pilot, or pretty much any of the similar '+2 init and nothing else for a point' mid PS generics, or using Lighting Reflexes or Adrenaline Rush or Cool Hand or Expose or... etc.

I find this funny as I've been doing a lot of missions lately and I have used some of those things to secure victory recently. Daredevil won me a number of games. I've also used Adrenaline Rush and Lightning Rush in missions for really good effect. It really caught someone off guard! It was hysterical. They were pure tricks, but they worked once.

Obsidian Squads will get you a shot over generic PS 2 Rebels often enough, especially in Epic. PS is often a big factor in epic. It is a matter of getting to shoot vs. not in a number of games. People are so used to going with the cheapest generics for maximum efficiency that I've really snookered them by going with the slightly higher PS guys.

Yeah, I've had to work at some of those to make them worth it....and there are somethings that just suck no matter what (Expose, I'm looking at you), but you might be surprised at some of the stupid stuff that actually works in some games. Oh, I didn't have to use them to win, but I have used them at just the right time to help me a decent amount.

Just now, kris40k said:

Nah, its more like 10% of pilots and upgrades are broken making everything else relatively look like trash.

Just cause FFG broke their game with OP **** like Fenn Rau, Jumpmasters, Sabine(crew), TLT's, etc. doesn't mean the other ships aren't worth flying.

Nope, about 2% of them are broken. Even if Jumps, Fenn and K Wings didn't exist, people still wouldn't use Grey Squadron Y Wings, Dagger Squadron B Wings, Obsidian Squadron TIE Fighters, Gamma Squadron Bombers, ANY punishers, ANY imperial Firesprays, etc etc etc etc etc. People still wouldn't use Flight Instructor. Expose would still be terrible, most of the named TIE pilots would still be useless, Rhymer would still be 3+ points overcosted, etc etc etc.

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I find this funny as I've been doing a lot of missions lately and I have used some of those things to secure victory recently. Daredevil won me a number of games. I've also used Adrenaline Rush and Lightning Rush in missions for really good effect. It really caught someone off guard! It was hysterical. They were pure tricks, but they worked once.

Obsidian Squads will get you a shot over generic PS 2 Rebels often enough, especially in Epic. PS is often a big factor in epic. It is a matter of getting to shoot vs. not in a number of games. People are so used to going with the cheapest generics for maximum efficiency that I've really snookered them by going with the slightly higher PS guys.

Yeah, I've had to work at some of those to make them worth it....and there are somethings that just suck no matter what (Expose, I'm looking at you), but you might be surprised at some of the stupid stuff that actually works in some games. Oh, I didn't have to use them to win, but I have used them at just the right time to help me a decent amount.

Daredevil definitely has a good place in casual play on Oicunn and on Kylo pilot among others. But then, i didn't mention Daredevil

19 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nope, about 2% of them are broken. Even if Jumps, Fenn and K Wings didn't exist, people still wouldn't use Grey Squadron Y Wings, Dagger Squadron B Wings, Obsidian Squadron TIE Fighters, Gamma Squadron Bombers, ANY punishers, ANY imperial Firesprays, etc etc etc etc etc. People still wouldn't use Flight Instructor. Expose would still be terrible, most of the named TIE pilots would still be useless, Rhymer would still be 3+ points overcosted, etc etc etc.

Dagger Squadrons did win a worlds final, wouldn't say the PS+ generics are utter trash. They just are the most situational of the situational, basicaly hunting both PS variants of the TIE swarm at that time. Should that level of a PS bid ever be favourable again, these ships have their place.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nope, about 2% of them are broken. Even if Jumps, Fenn and K Wings didn't exist, people still wouldn't use Grey Squadron Y Wings, Dagger Squadron B Wings, Obsidian Squadron TIE Fighters, Gamma Squadron Bombers, ANY punishers, ANY imperial Firesprays, etc etc etc etc etc. People still wouldn't use Flight Instructor. Expose would still be terrible, most of the named TIE pilots would still be useless, Rhymer would still be 3+ points overcosted, etc etc etc.

I agree with some of this with an "ehhhhh...yeah." There are a few ships and cards that are poorly built/costed (Expose, Flight Instructor) , and the way PS works, some generics fall outside most use cases, but I'll disagree with much of it as well. For instance, I see Imp Firesprays flown today and fly them myself*, I believe many TIE/ln Fighter pilots have value*, and we happen to be in a thread about a fix for Punishers that is coming out .

About TIE's specifically, 2 Attack ships as a whole are suffering, but that is a power creep issue related to my previous statement of FFG breaking thier own game by releasing broken ****.

*I agree they are objectively point for point weaker than their Scum counterparts .

*like Howl, Dark Curse, Wampa, Mauler Mithel, Backstabber, Night Beast, Chaser, really only don't like Youngster and Winged Gundark, but WG has some potential in Kylo Ren lists now .

19 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Dagger Squadrons did win a worlds final, wouldn't say the PS+ generics are utter trash. They just are the most situational of the situational, basicaly hunting both PS variants of the TIE swarm at that time. Should that level of a PS bid ever be favourable again, these ships have their place.

Dagger squadrons aren't really the best. They're like "I want to be a swarm but I cost too much."

4 hours ago, heychadwick said:

As for cost, look at the Scimitar pilot. He's 16 pts. Adding 2 more to make his main attack a 3 is worth it, even with those chances of losing the Focus

I think the pricing on this is fascinating. I mean which would you prefer of these equally priced pilots?

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Bomber
Unguided Rockets (2), Lightweight Frame (2)

Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)

Interesting choice.

23 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Tomax with Crack shot and Unguided rockets is going to be a thing.

Yes, I'd agree here, this has potential.

For those talking about action efficiency, the Empire does have multiple ways of transferring focus tokens even to stressed ships... not quite positive this makes unguided good exactly (3 dice with a focus doesn't rock my world) but you could put in a shuttle bomber with fleet officer in your 5 bomber list instead of a rocket bomber?