Adaptability on Dengar to sidestep Fenn? ;o

Flew my version today in store champs, 4 and 2 with one bonehead move or maybe 5 and 1, definitely held its own against attani lists.

4 hours ago, CubsFanSean23 said:

Flew my version today in store champs, 4 and 2 with one bonehead move or maybe 5 and 1, definitely held its own against attani lists.

How often did you feel you missed an initiative bid (compared to the 98 pt Worlds version with Dengar/Tel)?

It honestly wasn't that big of a deal, I lost a game in which I was given initiative and a game in which I gave it away. 52 players, 4 and 2 top 16.....I need to improve mov and winning more decidedly, but overall, the list works well, especially against attani. Dengar hates Asajj, keeping him unstressed is the biggest thing imo......

On 19/05/2017 at 4:31 PM, Tupacca said:

Thanks for all your suggestions so far.

I played a further 3 games using the following list:

Dengar, Expertise, K4, Unhinged, Punishing One (53) & Asaj, PTL, Latts, Gyroscopic Targeting, Rigged Chute (45) Total = 98

I played against several iterations of Triple Imperial Aces, mainly Standard PTL Inqusitor, VI Vessery, VI Backdraft & Expertise Quickdraw. Basically lots of accurate 3 dice attacks.

My opponent is quite savvy and decided to clutter my right hand side of the board with asteroids each game to make it harder for Dengar and Asaj to turn in left as they moved up (as he knew I would likely deploy on the right). I deployed as normal with Asaj in the right hand corner facing forward, with Dengar just off to her left facing the same direction. During the first two games using this deployment I slow rolled which forced him to come across to me through the asteroids which suited me well, because when the engagement came he couldn't focus fire all three ships into one of mine.

He went for Asaj first in both games which was a mistake as she tanked very very, allowing Dengar to get regular R1 fully modded shots. As they chased Asaj Dengar cleaned up.

In the third game the right hand side was far too dense with asteroids. I therefore deployed Asaj in the bottom left corner facing forwards, with Dengar to her right facing the right hand board egde - so he could straight and then either bank or turn in left. It worked quite well as an alternative set up.

I learnt not to get Dengar into range of multiple ships as he DOES get burned down relatively quickly. Sometimes its best to try and bump a ship to deny a shot, or barrel role out of arc to deny a shot if possible (that much is probably obvious though . . .)

I'm quite happy how the list performs, but the obvious weakness are ships that deal stress, as well as Biggs (due to lack of munitions). Its a fun list though so not too worried about how well it fits into the current meta.

I have considered removing the rigged cargo chute taking it down to 97. May help if I ever come up against the Dengar/Tel worlds list which is bound to be about.

Cheers

THis is a very strong list, but I tried it with Engine instead of Gyros/Chute on Assaj yesterday for a couple of games and I think it's stronger. It allows you to move Assaj's stress-arc a lot less predictably.

Happy Monday all . . . .

First off, I'm really impressed how useful this thread has been. I never expected it to gain this much traction.

I played my first Store Championship of the season this weekend. About 24 players, 4 rounds, and I won! 4-0

My List: Dengar, Expertise, K4, Unhinged, Title (53) Asaj, PTL, Latts, Gyros, RCC (45)

Game 1: Bossk, VI, Mangler, 4LOM, K4, Dengar + Fenn Rau, PTL, Title, Thruster + Bandit, GC, Cluster Missiles (Fairly unconventional) (100-27)

Game 2: (Yavin Runner Up) Hera, TLT, Accuracy Corrector, C3PO, Navigator, Engine + Ashoka, VI, Captured Tie, Title, Intel Agent, Slicer Tools + Zeb in a shuttle (100-0)

Game 3: Vessery, VI, X7 + Backdraft, Apadptability, FCS, LWF, Primed Thrusters + Inquisitor, PTL, AT, Title, Prockets (100-27)

Game 4 (Mirror Match) : Dengar, LW, Rec Spec, R5P8, Title + Asasj, Predator, Latts, Gyros, Cargo Chute (100-50)

@CubsFanSean23 You are spot on about Dengar hating Asaj as it just shuts down expertise. However, I found that I was able to either arc dodge or stay at R3 of her. Its tricky but not impossible. Asaj was also bad news for my PTL using Asaj - it was basically a redundant card when I had my mirror match game 4. I found Initiative didn't matter too much though. The bid definitely helps against Fenn Rau/auto thruster using ships as you can often BR Dengar into the magical place that is R2 where AT is turned off.

@thespaceinvader I'm not yet sold on the idea of EU over Gyros. Gyros is very synergistic with the PTL action economy. It does limit it you to the faster maneuvers, but as I will normally be stressed I will be clearing the stress on the green 3's anyway. I also found myself wanting to focus & evade ALOT of the time, and know that I would be reluctant to spend an action moving the arc. I guess I just like the guessing element of changing the arc at the end of the round in preparation for the next engagement - or bluffing. In any case, there is definitely a strong argument for EU and I will likely get round to testing it myself.

I'm thinking of taking this list to the European Championships in Birmingham. Stress lists will feature i'm sure, but there is nothing I can do about that. I will just have to fly better.

I am worried about lists with Omega Leader though and I'm fighting the urge not to include counter measures . . .

Thanks!

22 minutes ago, Tupacca said:

Happy Monday all . . . .

First off, I'm really impressed how useful this thread has been. I never expected it to gain this much traction.

I played my first Store Championship of the season this weekend. About 24 players, 4 rounds, and I won! 4-0

My List: Dengar, Expertise, K4, Unhinged, Title (53) Asaj, PTL, Latts, Gyros, RCC (45)

Game 1: Bossk, VI, Mangler, 4LOM, K4, Dengar + Fenn Rau, PTL, Title, Thruster + Bandit, GC, Cluster Missiles (Fairly unconventional) (100-27)

Game 2: (Yavin Runner Up) Hera, TLT, Accuracy Corrector, C3PO, Navigator, Engine + Ashoka, VI, Captured Tie, Title, Intel Agent, Slicer Tools + Zeb in a shuttle (100-0)

Game 3: Vessery, VI, X7 + Backdraft, Apadptability, FCS, LWF, Primed Thrusters + Inquisitor, PTL, AT, Title, Prockets (100-27)

Game 4 (Mirror Match) : Dengar, LW, Rec Spec, R5P8, Title + Asasj, Predator, Latts, Gyros, Cargo Chute (100-50)

@CubsFanSean23 You are spot on about Dengar hating Asaj as it just shuts down expertise. However, I found that I was able to either arc dodge or stay at R3 of her. Its tricky but not impossible. Asaj was also bad news for my PTL using Asaj - it was basically a redundant card when I had my mirror match game 4. I found Initiative didn't matter too much though. The bid definitely helps against Fenn Rau/auto thruster using ships as you can often BR Dengar into the magical place that is R2 where AT is turned off.

@thespaceinvader I'm not yet sold on the idea of EU over Gyros. Gyros is very synergistic with the PTL action economy. It does limit it you to the faster maneuvers, but as I will normally be stressed I will be clearing the stress on the green 3's anyway. I also found myself wanting to focus & evade ALOT of the time, and know that I would be reluctant to spend an action moving the arc. I guess I just like the guessing element of changing the arc at the end of the round in preparation for the next engagement - or bluffing. In any case, there is definitely a strong argument for EU and I will likely get round to testing it myself.

I'm thinking of taking this list to the European Championships in Birmingham. Stress lists will feature i'm sure, but there is nothing I can do about that. I will just have to fly better.

I am worried about lists with Omega Leader though and I'm fighting the urge not to include counter measures . . .

Thanks!

I tried it with CM/Crane once or twice and just never found the right times to use CM, and tended to fail to pick it back up again.

It's between Dengar/Assaj and Ketsu Bossk for me for Euros.

I'm inclined to the latter because win or lose, it's FAST - if all my games are over in half an hour, it gives me more time in the con hall XD

34 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I tried it with CM/Crane once or twice and just never found the right times to use CM, and tended to fail to pick it back up again.

It's between Dengar/Assaj and Ketsu Bossk for me for Euros.

I'm inclined to the latter because win or lose, it's FAST - if all my games are over in half an hour, it gives me more time in the con hall XD

Yeah I've seen that combo floating around.

Dengar Bossk is definitely a powerful list. Whats your name btw? I'll look out for you.

Cheers

Ben

46 minutes ago, Tupacca said:

Yeah I've seen that combo floating around.

Dengar Bossk is definitely a powerful list. Whats your name btw? I'll look out for you.

Cheers

Ben

I'll be the one wearing the Fenn Rau costume on day 2. Hopefully.

11 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'll be the one wearing the Fenn Rau costume on day 2. Hopefully.

I'll keep an eye out.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I tried it with CM/Crane once or twice and just never found the right times to use CM, and tended to fail to pick it back up again.

It's between Dengar/Assaj and Ketsu Bossk for me for Euros.

I'm inclined to the latter because win or lose, it's FAST - if all my games are over in half an hour, it gives me more time in the con hall XD

Ketsu/Bossk SHOULD be fast games, but I just participated in a "Pre-Store Champ" Tournament at my local shop and I had 2 out of my 4 swiss games go pretty long. Granted in those games I wasn't able to get my Cluster Missiles off on Bossk, but I was still able to pull victories out with primarily Ketsu. I think it's actually a really important skill to know how to close a game out with just Ketsu in the Ketsu/Bossk list as you won't always get the best alpha strike and Bossk can die before getting the missiles off.

Both lists are great overall and I might eventually try Dengar/Asajj, but I don't think I have a ship I can fly better than Ketsu right now so it might be a bit lol.

I have been running Ketsu/Kath for several months. Love the list but was lacking something. Swapped Kath for Dengar and went 3-0 this last weekend playing with some friends(we are all into the tourney scene). My build went like this

Kath-veteran instincts, k4, title, gyroscopic targeting

Dengar-expertise, weapons engineer, title, unhinged astromech

Weapone engineer is alot more useful than one might think on Dengar.

I figured I'd run down my 6 matches so I can relive my dumb mistake one final time, Store Champs 52 players:

Round 1- I ran into Hart S. (17th at Worlds) running his list with Asajj, Fenn and Palob-cloaking device, attani, dorsal (no stygium this time). I have played him at least 4 other times and he's a better pilot, 100 percent. He was able to neutralize Dengar with Asajj and this was a huge difference. I made the mistake of not just getting rid of Palob when I could instead going for Fenn with worse shots. It was the wrong move, I lost 0 to 100.

Round 2-Imperial list Decimator with Vader and Hux and 2 Bombers with Torps, Tracers and other junk. I just took down Deci and managed to stay out of arc a lot/in range 1 to avoid torps. It was a fairly easy match, he did get half on Dengar (100 to 29).

Round 3-THE BIG MISTAKE round. I was playing a guy who comes up to Phoenix from Mexico who is very good (he made top 8 again). I gotta stop letting pilots I think are better than me intimidate me. He was running Rau Boats/Grassholes/whatever you call it :). I knew I had to forego my torps as I didn't want to trade 1 torp shot for 2. I wanted to feign the slow game then slam into range 1, which I did effectively. I had moved Asajj in and was able to use her maneuverability to get away from arc after the intial engagement. I got Fenn early but had to take some damage to get that complete. I don't remember all the specifics except I tried to remain close and/or out of their main arc. By the time we got to the end when I lost Dengar, he had 2 torp boats (1 had finally gotten off the torps on Asajj and 1 was full torps), it came down to 2 jumpmasters 1 torp full with 2 hull and 1 torpless with 1 hull against a 6 hull Asajj. Engine upgrade here and I think I can totally avoid arced TORP shots, but eh. I still manage to do so yet have to take the turret shots. I kill the torpless boat and have 3 on Asajj vs. the 2 hull ship. Then the big mistake. I keep bumping his ship I'm up by 2 points and maybe 10 or 5 minutes was called. We both have target locks and I know he can't get away from me to shoot a torp. I FORGET where my stupid arc is and make a move thinking it's pointing left. Worse, I forget I'm running PTL and can just move the dumb thing allowing him to sloop and get a target lock focus shot on the side of the ship with no arc. He gets 3 in (no luck with dice) and I lose a game I had won. I'm kicking myself over and over at lunch break and then decide, screw this I'm going 4 and 2. Sorry for the book. Brutal loss 83 to 100, but it's my fault, lessons learned.

Round 4- Old Fennaroo. I have played this a few times and even practiced against it in casual play with this list and lost. So helpful as I knew the idea here was to get whoever he puts in front of me. Dengar's ability here is helpful as he doesn't need focus tokens against Teroch so I tried to single that out. I let Asajj try and chase down Manaroo and it works. She keeps after her as she didn't have any antichasing things on her and I end up killing her and Teroch on the same turn. It's my 2 ships against Fenn and it takes a few rounds but I end up trading the range 1 shot with a close to half health Dengar along with pumping a range 2 in from Asajj for the kill. It cost me half health on Dengar and I win again 100 to 29 yet again.

Round 5- Rematch against the Fenn, Asajj, Palob list. I had learned from my match against Hart. He put Palob out in front Round 1/2 of both and I just demolish him. Fenn and Asajj were far enough away I take little damage in the exchange. From here I'm able to focus Asajj on Asajj and Dengar on Fenn. I win both exchanges but do take half damage on both. Win 100-50, I have to get better at MOV and win a game 100 to 0 if I'm going to have a chance at top 8 at 4 and 2 in any future events as such. Oh well 3 and 2 on to the final match.

Round 6- Dengar Bossk. He has basically my same build on Dengar minus extra munitions and then has Bossk with Cluster missles. We play ring around the rosies for a bit then we both turn in, I get a torp off at Bossk taking most shields and he gets one off at my Dengar leaving me with 1 shield. From here I am able to better position myself with the more maneuverable ship against him. I didn't do as well as I should have staying away from Bossk shots so I took a few more plinked shots at range 3 but was able to get in more damage to his ships with closer shots from Asajj to Bossk. Asajj kills Bossk and Dengar kills Dengar (both died on the mirrored exchange). I wonder if I can 100 to 0 this match by taking my Dengar vs. Bossk and let my Asajj go for his Dengar, but the strategy worked. Win 100 to 58 and I complete my 4 and 2 run.

I know matchups would have been different if I win Round 3, but I really feel I left 5 and 1 out there and could have landed top 8, uggghhhh, not bad though. I am looking forward to store champs 2 in a few weeks.

The stock Dengar + Asaj Build (currently) is Dengar, Expertise, K4, Unhinged (53) & Asaj, PTL, Latts (42) leaving 5pts spare.

I am having trouble deciding which upgrades to add but have made a short list of potential includes.

1.Engine Upgrade on Asaj leaving a 1pt Initiative bid, or 1 pt for Rigged Cargo Chute/Burnout Slam on Asaj

2. Gryros and Rigged Cargo Chute on Asaj for a 2pt Inititative bid

3. Gryos on Asaj and Countermeasures on Dengar takes me to 100 pts (Countermeasure is mainly there to deal with Omega Leader)

I'm not really sure how much OL is going to feature at Store Championships etc so It may not be worth it. Fenn on the other hand will be prominent so I'm fairly keen on a decent initiative bid forcing him to move first.

5 minutes ago, Tupacca said:

The stock Dengar + Asaj Build (currently) is Dengar, Expertise, K4, Unhinged (53) & Asaj, PTL, Latts (42) leaving 5pts spare.

I am having trouble deciding which upgrades to add but have made a short list of potential includes.

1.Engine Upgrade on Asaj leaving a 1pt Initiative bid, or 1 pt for Rigged Cargo Chute/Burnout Slam on Asaj

2. Gryros and Rigged Cargo Chute on Asaj for a 2pt Inititative bid

3. Gryos on Asaj and Countermeasures on Dengar takes me to 100 pts (Countermeasure is mainly there to deal with Omega Leader)

I'm not really sure how much OL is going to feature at Store Championships etc so It may not be worth it. Fenn on the other hand will be prominent so I'm fairly keen on a decent initiative bid forcing him to move first.

Engine on Dengar is also an option, albeit one I've not fully explored.

I'd say it really comes down to personal preference. OL isn't a hugely scary issue, Dengar should be able to get the range control to close from out of range in one turn and put the hurt on him, but he is very much the priority target for this list. if he comes up.

16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Engine on Dengar is also an option, albeit one I've not fully explored.

I'd say it really comes down to personal preference. OL isn't a hugely scary issue, Dengar should be able to get the range control to close from out of range in one turn and put the hurt on him, but he is very much the priority target for this list. if he comes up.

EU on Dengar wasn't something I'd considered - it could be good.

Your point about OL is sound, I will just have to control the first engagement to prevent his initial TL.

I'm torn between maxing out on upgrades and going for a bid . . . .

I personally fly:

Dengar: guidance chips, punishing one, fearlessness, ion torpedoes, k4, unhinged astromech;

Asajj: gyro, push the limit, latts razzi, rigged cargo chute.

Firing focused and guided ion torpedoes on aces gives you an opportunity to be at range 1 of the ace on the next turn for fearlessness, they are also useful versus formation teams. Asajj does the dirty work at the end of the match.

17 hours ago, Tupacca said:

EU on Dengar wasn't something I'd considered - it could be good.

Your point about OL is sound, I will just have to control the first engagement to prevent his initial TL.

I'm torn between maxing out on upgrades and going for a bid . . . .

I'd want to bid. Parattani is still a thing, and you want to be able to move after Fenn and their Assaj.

I'm inclined still to say that EU is better on Assaj though. It increases the number of repositioning actions in the list, rather than just increasing the options.

On 2017-5-18 at 6:54 PM, Sixter said:

I know everyone really likes the Asajj/Latts combo but I want to try the triple action PtL/K4 combo on Asajj. The upside is that you can still take evade as an action for some tankiness and you are not relieving your opponent of stress. In some cases you are actually gaining extra durability by taking the evade because you are not able to stress every turn because you need to be within range 1-2 and have the opponent in the auxiliary arc. If Asajj has TL/focus for offense every turn she can really punish the opponent for going for Dengar first. I think Dengar is happy if the opponent goes for Asajj first so I figure you have to provide two real offensive threats to make the choice difficult.

I would like to try the following version myself:

Dengar/Expertise/Title/K4/Unhinged 53 pts

Asajj/PtL/K4/Engine 47 pts

Im giving Asajj engine upgrade to be able to circle on the outside without getting caught by blockers. This way both ships have reposition which is also kind of fun.

I've started flying this list and I really like having K4 on Asajj instead of Latts, plus IMHO the EU makes her a bit less predictable on her moves.

So, I tried the Engine Upgrade version of Dengar/Asaj that many of you have suggested, during my league game yesterday.

List: Dengar, Expertise, Title, K4, UA (53) + Asasj, PTL, Latts, EU (46) 99

Game one I played against the Paul Heaver Special: Miranda, Biggs and Stresshog, which in my opinion is one of the worst match-ups for this list. My opponent cluttered the right side of the board with asteroids, deployed Biggs and the Stresshog in the centre, and Miranda in the corner off to his right. I placed Asaj on my right in the corner and Dengar in the left corner facing Asaj ready to turn or bank into the board using his greens to generate a TL. This seems to work well when the right side is filled with obstacles.

I slow rolled Dengar, 5 forwarded Asaj down the side and boosted which managed to arc dodge the stresshog, and enabled me to shoot Biggs out the side. After he saw that Asaj was going to get behind Biggs and the Stresshog he focused on moving all his ships towards Dengar. Asaj circled in from behind and put damage into Biggs, while Dengar managed to BR out of range of both the Stress hog & Biggs, while putting some damage into Miranda discouraging her from shooting back. Next turn Dengar got cluster mined and double stressed taking him to 1 hull but I managed to kill biggs with Asaj (as Dengar bumped Biggs) and get Miranda down to 4 hull. The stress hog was out of the game at this point facing the wrong direction. I knew Dengar would likely die from a TLT shot the follwowing turn so I just tried to get a good shot off on Miranda before I died . . . . luckily I got a blinded pilot through and took her to one Hull leaving Dengar alive! Next turn I PS killed Miranda, leaving a 1H Dengar and full Asaj to kill the Stresshog. I won, but was lucky.

I feel EU is better than Gyros now, the re positioning it offers is so valuable often negating the need to move your aux arc in the first place. It's also great for blocking. In general I like having more options so will be taking this to Euros.

Thanks

I played:

Dengar expertise k4 plasma xmun unhinged title guidance

Asajj ptl latts

Had some success. Prefer naked Asajj, although had problems with keeping points against defenders.

Can I forego the Punishing One title on Dengar? I ask because I'm looking at a more alpha hit list with this:

29 minutes ago, Skargoth said:

Can I forego the Punishing One title on Dengar? I ask because I'm looking at a more alpha hit list with this:

Ketsu Onyo — Lancer-class Pursuit Craft	38
Veteran Instincts	1
K4 Security Droid	3
Glitterstim	2
Engine Upgrade	4
Shadow Caster	3
Ship Total: 51
Dengar — JumpMaster 5000	33
Expertise	4
Proton Torpedoes	4
Extra Munitions	2
K4 Security Droid	3
Unhinged Astromech	1
Glitterstim	2
Guidance Chips	0
Ship Total: 49

Obviously the plan is to slam Ketsu into stuff, get TL anyway with K4, Tractor it, shoot and Tractor again, then let Dengar unload a torpedo on the target. I could shave points off munitions and some other stuff maybe to fit title, but I'm really curious how this holds up as I do not want to fly a super expensive Dengar.

If this is for fun, go for it, if you want it competitive, you need punishing one imo, you can forego torps before that. Here's why other lists with torps, e.g. attani scouts you want an advantage close up, that 4 dice close at range one is just better, they'll have 5 to 6 torps to your 2. They are common in the meta so that's a big issue.....

I have a real fear of taking Dengar with Boba crew out there. If you get hit with Boba and they discard title, you are hosed. It's why I am no longer considering taking Dengar to Store Championship season.