On 5/15/2017 at 10:34 AM, SuperArppis said:

The only thing I really dislike is that the lightsaber-form focused trees don't give you Force Rating. Some may say they would be too overpowered. Then why aren't the other trees made just as useful? If they are really THAT bad that they have to have Force Rating there just to lure people to get them, make the trees more enticing.

Actually the Niman Disciple gives you a Force Rating boost. I'm not sure why it's odd that learning how to swing a weapon, isn't the same as learning how to use the Force. That type of training is reflected in all the other spec trees that give you a Force Rating increase.

OT: I think you just don't get the way the FR system works, if you think it's underwhelming. Having run an F&D game, and having 2 players both get to 2 FR, I can tell you that there was a significant jump in their Force effectiveness with that second dice. They were more consistently rolling sufficient light pips to do things without having to take conflict. They were able to upgrade their powers to do lots of the cool stuff they bought, and in general became WAY more powerful and dangerous with the Force. If your PCs are already established characters, with a significant battery of Force powers, then have them buy up in spec trees that would give them a Force Rating of 2-3, and let them buy up the rest in Force powers. I promise you, they will be quite terrifying if you do that.

54 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Actually the Niman Disciple gives you a Force Rating boost. I'm not sure why it's odd that learning how to swing a weapon, isn't the same as learning how to use the Force. That type of training is reflected in all the other spec trees that give you a Force Rating increase.

Yeah, this always puzzled me quite a bit.

You are attuning yourself with the Force when you train to swing the saber and learning to do all the cool flips and moves. Ofcourse you should be proficient with the Force use as well.

37 minutes ago, SuperArppis said:

Yeah, this always puzzled me quite a bit.

You are attuning yourself with the Force when you train to swing the saber and learning to do all the cool flips and moves. Ofcourse you should be proficient with the Force use as well.

I'm not sure that's actually what you are learning. All of the material I've seen about actually learning saber techniques, is all about the physical side of it. The idea is that anyone who is picking up a saber tree, has at least 1 other spec with a Force Rating in it, or that is their only spec. But really, what in all of the stuff that we see in the material (movies/tv shows, etc), actually shows someone using a ton of Force powers when they are using a saber? We don't. They are hacking and slashing for the most part. The two powers that would be most useful during saber fighting, are Sense and Enhance, and, well you can just invest in those to see immediate benefit in saber fighting.

If they have one of the other spec trees that are about using the Force, then they will at least be able to get up to FR 2, if they buy into that tree. Which is quite powerful. But if that is their only spec tree, well they've at least got FR 1, and are probably planning on dumping all their XP into combat anyway, and not Force powers.

That and it's quite one thing to train yourself to be strong, but it is quite another thing to learn a marital art. One method trains your muscle and the other trains you on how to use your muscles.

Force use does tie into Lightsaber play with certain talents but it can only provide a foundation. Likewise being skilled with the force doesn't mean being skilled with a light saber; there are some cultures and characters in universe that never handled a light saber, or only learnt how to carry one after being introduced to the material. Both are separate aspects of being a Jedi that play off one another but only go so far.

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I'm not sure that's actually what you are learning. All of the material I've seen about actually learning saber techniques, is all about the physical side of it. The idea is that anyone who is picking up a saber tree, has at least 1 other spec with a Force Rating in it, or that is their only spec. But really, what in all of the stuff that we see in the material (movies/tv shows, etc), actually shows someone using a ton of Force powers when they are using a saber? We don't. They are hacking and slashing for the most part. The two powers that would be most useful during saber fighting, are Sense and Enhance, and, well you can just invest in those to see immediate benefit in saber fighting.

If they have one of the other spec trees that are about using the Force, then they will at least be able to get up to FR 2, if they buy into that tree. Which is quite powerful. But if that is their only spec tree, well they've at least got FR 1, and are probably planning on dumping all their XP into combat anyway, and not Force powers.

I don't see really single convincing reason in that argument that there shouldn't be a Force Rating at the "lightsaber" trees. These trees require you to have actual Force Sensitivity, and there are actual talents that benefit you from having more than 1 or 2 white dies on you. As I said before, if the other trees are so bad that you only need to take them for Force Rating, why not give them a bit of a buff? Just assuming that players will go for full combat without Force powers is a bit silly. Dozens of times, just like in this thread, people have wondered "why the Force powers suck so much?", it's obvious that people want to use them JUST LIKE they use in the movies during the saber fights, unlike you claim.

And if you have to use your Force Powers to deflect shots and attacks, sense your enemy movements and emotions all the time, OFCORUSE you gain higher learning and grasp of the Force. That just goes without saying.

Are you saying that people who use Lightsabers don't let Force influence them at all or they don't use Force all the time to enhance their agility and such? They are using the Force CONSTANTLY in lightsaber fights. Yoda probably does it all the time and so does Dooku. Heck, they jump and flip, deflect with telekinesis and push enemies around.

The whole idea of playing a force user is to infact use force. I still don't see any convincing arguments that you shouldn't get Force Points from these trees.

Well, Niman as the outlier for Force Rating in Saber trees makes sense, as it was a Form to learn that didn't require so much study you couldn't learn anything else. So it having a kind of "Jack-Of-All-Stats" layout makes sense. For the other trees, it's not that using a lightsaber doesn't teach you anything about the Force, it's that it doesn't teach you enough to be represented in the game by a Force Rating increase (if FR is as awesome as everyone keeps telling me it is). Yeah, Yoda and Dooku mixed Lightsaber and Force Power pretty liberally in their fights, but they're both very skilled Jedi/Sith Masters with probably at least three full Spec trees to their names, so they've gotten Force Rating increases from places outside just their chosen lightsaber form trees (and it's not like the Ataru/Makashi trees alone, even with every talent, would make an accurate build for Yoda/Dooku).

Again, I think it's a shift in thinking from previous d20 systems to this one. In D20, while you could multiclass, it usually wasn't the optimal choice unless you were going for a very specific, "tweaky concept build," and you were usually just going for a Prestige class or class-dipping for the prereqs for a specific Prestige Class. Here, it seems like "Multiclassing" (buying access to multiple Specializations) is encouraged, even required, to make a well-rounded character. One talent tree will only carry you so far.

14 minutes ago, SuperArppis said:

I don't see really single convincing reason in that argument that there shouldn't be a Force Rating at the "lightsaber" trees. These trees require you to have actual Force Sensitivity, and there are actual talents that benefit you from having more than 1 or 2 white dies on you. As I said before, if the other trees are so bad that you only need to take them for Force Rating, why not give them a bit of a buff? Just assuming that players will go for full combat without Force powers is a bit silly. Dozens of times, just like in this thread, people have wondered "why the Force powers suck so much?", it's obvious that people want to use them JUST LIKE they use in the movies during the saber fights, unlike you claim.

If people think the Force powers suck, then they clearly don't understand how the game system works.
I never once said the other trees are so bad, that you only take them for Force Rating. For one, I think that is objectively false, as pretty much every talent tree is powerful in it's own way.
As to "using them" just like in the movies, unlike I claim, please tell me what FORCE POWERS are used in the movies during saber duels, that are somehow specific to a saber technique. There are none, why? Because when they are doing saber scenes, the people are jumping around a lot, and dodging a lot, which are both easily covered by Sense, and Enhance. There is nothing saber specific, that is some flashy thing, that is Force related. The closest is being able to parry blaster shots. Well guess what, that's simply a talent in pretty much all of the saber trees, to some extent. It's called Reflect. You don't need some unique Force power to do that, you just have to buy Reflect. And it works just as good, whether you are an FR 1 soldier type Jedi, or an FR 5 Master type Jedi. Force Rating has nothing to do with Martial power, which is exactly what saber talent trees have to do with. FR illustrates your ability to tap into the Force, not how well you twirl around a glowstick of death. Sure, there are some talents that benefit from your FR, but that doesn't mean that learning to use the stick of death, is the same as growing stronger in the Force. What it does mean, is that if you happen to be more powerful in the Force, you will be more effective with that skill.

20 minutes ago, SuperArppis said:

And if you have to use your Force Powers to deflect shots and attacks, sense your enemy movements and emotions all the time, OFCORUSE you gain higher learning and grasp of the Force. That just goes without saying.

Actually no it doesn't "go without saying", I'm saying it doesn't go with it, so there. Again, Force Rating is not the same thing as martial ability. They are different things. When you are spending all your time learning how to twirl a stick, guess what? You've become better at twirling a stick. That's it. It doesn't make you better at meditation, or balance, or anything else. It's twirling stickness that you got better at. Spending time learning how to improve your skill with the Force, is it's own thing too.

Look at it this way, if they are so intrinsically linked, then do you think that all of the other Force related trees should have lightsaber related talents in them? I mean, it goes without saying that they are together right? By your reasoning anyway. I'm getting better in the Force by improving my Sage talent tree, I should have some saber stuff too. No, because that doesn't make any sense. One is not the other. They lean on each other, and they can benefit from improving in each other, but that's not the same thing as "training one means I train the other".

Let me give you a different example of what I'm saying. The Sage and Mystic trees, both allow you to get up to FR 3, by just being in that tree alone. The tradeoff? You don't get Dedication. Well why not? I mean if I'm doing all that stuff in that tree, expanding my mind, and body, and doing stuff just like other talent trees (sometimes with the exact same talents), why don't I get the chance to improve my characteristic? I'm doing the same stuff as the other mental related classes, but I don't get Dedication? No, because since focusing on the Force to such a degree, you lose the ability to improve your body stats, even mental ones, which would make a lot of sense to be able to improve. Same with saber talents. All that time you spend in the gym, cutting things with a laser sword, didn't leave you a lot of time to make yourself One With the Force, and expand your mind. You're too busy learning to jump and punch and kick and cut.

27 minutes ago, SuperArppis said:

Are you saying that people who use Lightsabers don't let Force influence them at all or they don't use Force all the time to enhance their agility and such?

I said no such things, do not put words into my mouth to try and then deny them with your argument.
Sure they use the Force to enhance their agility and such...it's called ENHANCE. It's got it's own little write up in 2 of the 3 core books. Also, SENSE, which again, have nothing to do with swinging a stick around.

28 minutes ago, SuperArppis said:

Yoda probably does it all the time and so does Dooku. Heck, they jump and flip, deflect with telekinesis and push enemies around.

Yoda probably did use the Force to improve his physical abilities beyond that of an old man, but again, that's ENHANCE. Which is not a lightsaber tree.

30 minutes ago, SuperArppis said:

The whole idea of playing a force user is to infact use force. I still don't see any convincing arguments that you shouldn't get Force Points from these trees.

Because lightsabers are insanely OP, especially in low level play, and to some degree, these trees are designed for game balance with the other game lines. To allow a PC to just stick to every saber tree, jumping from each of them, getting insanely powerful with the glowsticks of death, AND also being able to get an FR of 5+ out of it at the same time? No, that's just broken. If you want to be really good with a death stick, learn a saber tree. If you want to be good with the Force, learn any of the other trees, plus Niman Disciple, which does give you an FR boost, it's the only one.

6 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Actually the Niman Disciple gives you a Force Rating boost. I'm not sure why it's odd that learning how to swing a weapon, isn't the same as learning how to use the Force. That type of training is reflected in all the other spec trees that give you a Force Rating increase.

In the case of Niman Disciple, note that it doesn't offer either Improved Parry or Improved Reflect. In fact, thus far only the Sentry spec (Endless Vigil) has both a Force Rating talent and Improved Reflect, with the second one being in the 5th Row where the specs that offer Improved Parry or Improved Reflect tend to have said talent in the 3rd or 4th Row. Soresu Defender is odd in that it has both Improved Parry and Improved Reflect, but the second talent is in the 5th Row while the first talent is in the 3rd Row. It's possible the Arbiter spec in the upcoming Consular book will have Force Rating and either Improved Parry or Improved Reflect, but if it does I wouldn't expect the Improved Parry/Reflect talent to be cheap or easy to access if it's not in the 5th Row.

Speaking from experience, being able to squeeze off a free hit with Improved Parry (especially if using a high-damage value lightsaber) or Improved Reflect can be quite effective, especially if you've committed your Force die to use the Sense power to upgrade the attacker's difficulty. I've got a Shii-Cho Knight that's an absolute beast in a duel that uses a combination of Sense and Defensive Training (3 ranks' worth after diving into Niman Disciple) to ensure that any attacks that do hit have a very high chance of causing Improved Parry to proc, and an automatic hit from a Damage 9/Breach 1 weapon isn't anything to sneeze at.

So the lack of Improved Parry in Niman Disciple is probably more a game balance thing to offset the fact that lightsabers are such potent weapons, given Niman's own Force Rating talent is buried deep within the spec's tree.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

In the case of Niman Disciple, note that it doesn't offer either Improved Parry or Improved Reflect. In fact, thus far only the Sentry spec (Endless Vigil) has both a Force Rating talent and Improved Reflect, with the second one being in the 5th Row where the specs that offer Improved Parry or Improved Reflect tend to have said talent in the 3rd or 4th Row. Soresu Defender is odd in that it has both Improved Parry and Improved Reflect, but the second talent is in the 5th Row while the first talent is in the 3rd Row. It's possible the Arbiter spec in the upcoming Consular book will have Force Rating and either Improved Parry or Improved Reflect, but if it does I wouldn't expect the Improved Parry/Reflect talent to be cheap or easy to access if it's not in the 5th Row.

Speaking from experience, being able to squeeze off a free hit with Improved Parry (especially if using a high-damage value lightsaber) or Improved Reflect can be quite effective, especially if you've committed your Force die to use the Sense power to upgrade the attacker's difficulty. I've got a Shii-Cho Knight that's an absolute beast in a duel that uses a combination of Sense and Defensive Training (3 ranks' worth after diving into Niman Disciple) to ensure that any attacks that do hit have a very high chance of causing Improved Parry to proc, and an automatic hit from a Damage 9/Breach 1 weapon isn't anything to sneeze at.

So the lack of Improved Parry in Niman Disciple is probably more a game balance thing to offset the fact that lightsabers are such potent weapons, given Niman's own Force Rating talent is buried deep within the spec's tree.

True, though I wasn't debating the parry/reflect aspect of the talent trees. Though, and I might be remembering this wrong, doesn't Niman have more ranks of the basic parry and reflect? I remember the devs describing it as being a very good defensive style to take. It doesn't give you a lot of offensive tricks, but it's really good on the "Don't Touch Me" style of fighting, or so they said.

Niman has force rating because it is the one fighting style in which use of the force is close to mandatory for offensive purposes. Niman involves lots of telekinetic throws, pushes and pulls to make up for the fact it is ultimately a very simplified form of combat, even compared to Shii-cho.

9 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

True, though I wasn't debating the parry/reflect aspect of the talent trees. Though, and I might be remembering this wrong, doesn't Niman have more ranks of the basic parry and reflect? I remember the devs describing it as being a very good defensive style to take. It doesn't give you a lot of offensive tricks, but it's really good on the "Don't Touch Me" style of fighting, or so they said.

Niman does have ranks in those.

11 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

If people think the Force powers suck, then they clearly don't understand how the game system works.
I never once said the other trees are so bad, that you only take them for Force Rating. For one, I think that is objectively false, as pretty much every talent tree is powerful in it's own way.
As to "using them" just like in the movies, unlike I claim, please tell me what FORCE POWERS are used in the movies during saber duels, that are somehow specific to a saber technique. There are none, why? Because when they are doing saber scenes, the people are jumping around a lot, and dodging a lot, which are both easily covered by Sense, and Enhance. There is nothing saber specific, that is some flashy thing, that is Force related. The closest is being able to parry blaster shots. Well guess what, that's simply a talent in pretty much all of the saber trees, to some extent. It's called Reflect. You don't need some unique Force power to do that, you just have to buy Reflect. And it works just as good, whether you are an FR 1 soldier type Jedi, or an FR 5 Master type Jedi. Force Rating has nothing to do with Martial power, which is exactly what saber talent trees have to do with. FR illustrates your ability to tap into the Force, not how well you twirl around a glowstick of death. Sure, there are some talents that benefit from your FR, but that doesn't mean that learning to use the stick of death, is the same as growing stronger in the Force. What it does mean, is that if you happen to be more powerful in the Force, you will be more effective with that skill.

Actually no it doesn't "go without saying", I'm saying it doesn't go with it, so there. Again, Force Rating is not the same thing as martial ability. They are different things. When you are spending all your time learning how to twirl a stick, guess what? You've become better at twirling a stick. That's it. It doesn't make you better at meditation, or balance, or anything else. It's twirling stickness that you got better at. Spending time learning how to improve your skill with the Force, is it's own thing too.

Look at it this way, if they are so intrinsically linked, then do you think that all of the other Force related trees should have lightsaber related talents in them? I mean, it goes without saying that they are together right? By your reasoning anyway. I'm getting better in the Force by improving my Sage talent tree, I should have some saber stuff too. No, because that doesn't make any sense. One is not the other. They lean on each other, and they can benefit from improving in each other, but that's not the same thing as "training one means I train the other".

Let me give you a different example of what I'm saying. The Sage and Mystic trees, both allow you to get up to FR 3, by just being in that tree alone. The tradeoff? You don't get Dedication. Well why not? I mean if I'm doing all that stuff in that tree, expanding my mind, and body, and doing stuff just like other talent trees (sometimes with the exact same talents), why don't I get the chance to improve my characteristic? I'm doing the same stuff as the other mental related classes, but I don't get Dedication? No, because since focusing on the Force to such a degree, you lose the ability to improve your body stats, even mental ones, which would make a lot of sense to be able to improve. Same with saber talents. All that time you spend in the gym, cutting things with a laser sword, didn't leave you a lot of time to make yourself One With the Force, and expand your mind. You're too busy learning to jump and punch and kick and cut.

I said no such things, do not put words into my mouth to try and then deny them with your argument.
Sure they use the Force to enhance their agility and such...it's called ENHANCE. It's got it's own little write up in 2 of the 3 core books. Also, SENSE, which again, have nothing to do with swinging a stick around.

Yoda probably did use the Force to improve his physical abilities beyond that of an old man, but again, that's ENHANCE. Which is not a lightsaber tree.

Because lightsabers are insanely OP, especially in low level play, and to some degree, these trees are designed for game balance with the other game lines. To allow a PC to just stick to every saber tree, jumping from each of them, getting insanely powerful with the glowsticks of death, AND also being able to get an FR of 5+ out of it at the same time? No, that's just broken. If you want to be really good with a death stick, learn a saber tree. If you want to be good with the Force, learn any of the other trees, plus Niman Disciple, which does give you an FR boost, it's the only one.

All Jedi do has to do with the Force. They are connected to them. Even the "Force Rating"-trees have physical skills there and skills that have nothing to do with the Force itself.

It is said that these talents could be used by someone who isn't Force sensitive, and it's true! But all trees have talents like these, but there are also talents that cannot be used by Force Sensitives. In both of these trees.

YES these trees have focus more on combat and some of them have more focus on other things outside. But that doesn't change the fact, that these all trees have force tied to them and you are constantly exposed into using it.

Lightsabers might be really powerful in combat, they are agreed. But you are not constantly in combat, or you shouldn't be. I have been playing this "solo campaign" on my character with our GM. And I have not fought a single time. I haven't drawn my blade out (my Lightsaber got busted) in a any of the instances where I could have. Instead I have resorted in subterfuge and using athletic skills and the special enviromental suit my character has (like crossing a lake by walking under it's surface!).

My point is, even when character focuses on lightsaber training, it doesn't mean it is the superior way of playing this game. But ofcourse, that depends on the GM quite a bit. I love it when I don't have to draw my blade, even when my character is quite dangerous in the combat encounter and use my other abilities instead.

It wouldn't be overpowering to have Lightsaber tree with the Force Rating. And if it would be, then other trees could use some more work.

Ok, this is getting a tad off topic. Then again, I think we pretty well covered my main topic (it's bad and I should feel bad). I have another, tangentially related question. It was brought up that "Knight-level" isn't really Knight-level, and a true Jedi Knight would be more like 500 XP. Since Jedi ranks and promotions are kind of a big deal in my homebrew setting, should I declare Jedi characters are Knights once they've spent 500 XP, and Masters at 1,000+?

3 hours ago, ErikModi said:

Ok, this is getting a tad off topic. Then again, I think we pretty well covered my main topic (it's bad and I should feel bad). I have another, tangentially related question. It was brought up that "Knight-level" isn't really Knight-level, and a true Jedi Knight would be more like 500 XP. Since Jedi ranks and promotions are kind of a big deal in my homebrew setting, should I declare Jedi characters are Knights once they've spent 500 XP, and Masters at 1,000+?

I'd recommend you not have a hard and fast XP threshold for them becoming a Knight. As a GM you might want to plan for narrative events to bring such a thing to pass around the time they reach 300-500 XP. I'd pay attention to the Talents and Force Powers your PCs have and see when it feels right.

Some players will want to create a more balanced character and they'll spread their XP around on lightsaber Talents and Force Powers and dive into a Specialization to increase their Force Rating - such characters will have a long plateau where they are really incrementally increasing their abilities but they'll hit a point where it all comes together and they've got FR 2 or 3 and good lightsaber Talents and depth in some Force Powers and they'll really shine. For these characters letting them get to a higher XP total makes sense as they're building up more broadly.

Some players will not care much about lightsaber use or Force Powers and focus on one of those almost (or totally) to the exclusion of the other. These characters will reach a high level of competency more quickly because they are focused. Maybe its a character focused on using the lightsaber and so they pick up the basic powers of 3 or 4 powers and maybe some upgrades (like to Enhance so they can Force Leap and to Foresee so they're better at initiative). Or they focus mostly on getting Force Rating to 3 and buying into Force Powers and mostly ignore the lightsaber stuff. These characters will feel ready sooner.

On 5/16/2017 at 5:29 AM, LordBritish said:

The main thing about force dice is that they are fairly inconsistent; a lightsider has a 5/12 chance of triggering, 3 of those dice give a double result which means, typically a lightsider user can have stronger turns when fortune favours that one. Not being able to use dark pips without drawing on conflict presents some interesting situations in that they want to generate a particular result, but their dice completely fail them. By spending a destiny point they can use all pips, but take conflict and strain.

I love how they dealt with the force die. The fact that it has equal number of dark pips and light pips, but the fact that there are more dark faces. That means that the dark side is the "quick and easy" path, but not stronger than the light.

7 hours ago, ErikModi said:

Ok, this is getting a tad off topic. Then again, I think we pretty well covered my main topic (it's bad and I should feel bad). I have another, tangentially related question. It was brought up that "Knight-level" isn't really Knight-level, and a true Jedi Knight would be more like 500 XP. Since Jedi ranks and promotions are kind of a big deal in my homebrew setting, should I declare Jedi characters are Knights once they've spent 500 XP, and Masters at 1,000+?

3 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I'd recommend you not have a hard and fast XP threshold for them becoming a Knight. As a GM you might want to plan for narrative events to bring such a thing to pass around the time they reach 300-500 XP. I'd pay attention to the Talents and Force Powers your PCs have and see when it feels right.

Some players will want to create a more balanced character and they'll spread their XP around on lightsaber Talents and Force Powers and dive into a Specialization to increase their Force Rating - such characters will have a long plateau where they are really incrementally increasing their abilities but they'll hit a point where it all comes together and they've got FR 2 or 3 and good lightsaber Talents and depth in some Force Powers and they'll really shine. For these characters letting them get to a higher XP total makes sense as they're building up more broadly.

Some players will not care much about lightsaber use or Force Powers and focus on one of those almost (or totally) to the exclusion of the other. These characters will reach a high level of competency more quickly because they are focused. Maybe its a character focused on using the lightsaber and so they pick up the basic powers of 3 or 4 powers and maybe some upgrades (like to Enhance so they can Force Leap and to Foresee so they're better at initiative). Or they focus mostly on getting Force Rating to 3 and buying into Force Powers and mostly ignore the lightsaber stuff. These characters will feel ready sooner.

Jedi Ronin pretty much nailed it. Really, what should determine when a character is promoted to the "rank" of Jedi Knight is passing the Jedi Trials, which are actually included in the Nexus of Power SB.

Fairly sure it was an episode of the Order 66 podcast, but Jay Little cited that the Force dice were designed specifically with Yoda's statement in ESB about how the dark side is "quicker, easier, more seductive, eager to join you in a fight," but that it wasn't more powerful than the light. So you've got the same number of pips on each Force die (8 dark, 8 light), but they're set up so that while more of the faces are dark side, all but one of them is a single pip, while the light side faces aren't as numerous (5 out of 7) but three of those faces are double light side pips, meaning for most PCs they've just generated 2 Force Points.

So as a PC increases their Force Rating, they're able to use the Force without having to draw nearly as much on the dark side, and by Force Rating 3 can generally accomplish most Force-related tasks that don't require huge piles of Force points without even glancing at those dark side pips that a PC with Force Rating 1 might have to consider using or not.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Fairly sure it was an episode of the Order 66 podcast, but Jay Little cited that the Force dice were designed specifically with Yoda's statement in ESB about how the dark side is "quicker, easier, more seductive, eager to join you in a fight," but that it wasn't more powerful than the light. So you've got the same number of pips on each Force die (8 dark, 8 light), but they're set up so that while more of the faces are dark side, all but one of them is a single pip, while the light side faces aren't as numerous (5 out of 7) but three of those faces are double light side pips, meaning for most PCs they've just generated 2 Force Points.

So as a PC increases their Force Rating, they're able to use the Force without having to draw nearly as much on the dark side, and by Force Rating 3 can generally accomplish most Force-related tasks that don't require huge piles of Force points without even glancing at those dark side pips that a PC with Force Rating 1 might have to consider using or not.

Even then its quite easy to roll dark on FR3 , bit harder to do that with white, but over 1000 rolls its going to average out the same.

Darkside = lower rolls with more consistency

Lightside = higher rolls with less consistency.

7 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I'd recommend you not have a hard and fast XP threshold for them becoming a Knight. As a GM you might want to plan for narrative events to bring such a thing to pass around the time they reach 300-500 XP. I'd pay attention to the Talents and Force Powers your PCs have and see when it feels right.

Some players will want to create a more balanced character and they'll spread their XP around on lightsaber Talents and Force Powers and dive into a Specialization to increase their Force Rating - such characters will have a long plateau where they are really incrementally increasing their abilities but they'll hit a point where it all comes together and they've got FR 2 or 3 and good lightsaber Talents and depth in some Force Powers and they'll really shine. For these characters letting them get to a higher XP total makes sense as they're building up more broadly.

Some players will not care much about lightsaber use or Force Powers and focus on one of those almost (or totally) to the exclusion of the other. These characters will reach a high level of competency more quickly because they are focused. Maybe its a character focused on using the lightsaber and so they pick up the basic powers of 3 or 4 powers and maybe some upgrades (like to Enhance so they can Force Leap and to Foresee so they're better at initiative). Or they focus mostly on getting Force Rating to 3 and buying into Force Powers and mostly ignore the lightsaber stuff. These characters will feel ready sooner.

Sounds good. I'll think of it more as a guideline.

5 hours ago, ErikModi said:

Sounds good. I'll think of it more as a guideline.

First, your return to the planet was not a part of our negotiation nor our agreement, so we are obliged to do nothing.

And secondly, you must be a Jedi for the Jedi Code to apply, and you're not. And thirdly! The XP-level requirements are more of what you'd call "guidelines" then actual rules. Welcome aboard the Millennium Falcon, Ms. Organa!

I'm so sorry, you left me too much of an opening... >_<

On 5/16/2017 at 8:44 AM, KungFuFerret said:

Actually the Niman Disciple gives you a Force Rating boost. I'm not sure why it's odd that learning how to swing a weapon, isn't the same as learning how to use the Force. That type of training is reflected in all the other spec trees that give you a Force Rating increase.

OT: I think you just don't get the way the FR system works, if you think it's underwhelming. Having run an F&D game, and having 2 players both get to 2 FR, I can tell you that there was a significant jump in their Force effectiveness with that second dice. They were more consistently rolling sufficient light pips to do things without having to take conflict. They were able to upgrade their powers to do lots of the cool stuff they bought, and in general became WAY more powerful and dangerous with the Force. If your PCs are already established characters, with a significant battery of Force powers, then have them buy up in spec trees that would give them a Force Rating of 2-3, and let them buy up the rest in Force powers. I promise you, they will be quite terrifying if you do that.

Having a high force rating does not make you awesome in FFG, honestly given the amount of xp you have to dump to achieve a decent force rating its extremely underwhelming.

A Force rating does nothing without the force powers and talents to back it up which costs even more experience.

The current system requires you to basically power game your way into an extremely specific build to gain what you want to make your character work properly.

There is far too much Multiple Attribute Dependency Syndrome in Force and Destiny.

7 hours ago, Absol197 said:

First, your return to the planet was not a part of our negotiation nor our agreement, so we are obliged to do nothing.

And secondly, you must be a Jedi for the Jedi Code to apply, and you're not. And thirdly! The XP-level requirements are more of what you'd call "guidelines" then actual rules. Welcome aboard the Millennium Falcon, Ms. Organa!

I'm so sorry, you left me too much of an opening... >_<

. . . I might have deserved that.

5 hours ago, Decorus said:

Having a high force rating does not make you awesome in FFG, honestly given the amount of xp you have to dump to achieve a decent force rating its extremely underwhelming.

A Force rating does nothing without the force powers and talents to back it up which costs even more experience.

The current system requires you to basically power game your way into an extremely specific build to gain what you want to make your character work properly.

There is far too much Multiple Attribute Dependency Syndrome in Force and Destiny.

That being said these guidelines are more intuned with your general force users from your OT, where force use was largely a subtle affair and there were very few teachers. That being said, being force sensitive is inefficient in the short term but it really depends what you are looking to do with the system; Force and Destiny should all be about the journey rather then the destination.

The other thing is the force in this system isn't a linear system, the character starts off really weak but by the time they hit 500 they more or less have the flexibility to do anything quite easily. Remember wizards in 3.5? Same kinda deal but less extreme.
It's a unfortunate artifact of the D20 system where force wizards were the most powerful thing ever. That system alone made me despise old people in a way I never thought was possible; we literally had to ban old people because people were only making old characters for that boosted will/int and cha saves or whatever.

6 hours ago, LordBritish said:

That being said these guidelines are more intuned with your general force users from your OT, where force use was largely a subtle affair and there were very few teachers. That being said, being force sensitive is inefficient in the short term but it really depends what you are looking to do with the system; Force and Destiny should all be about the journey rather then the destination.

The other thing is the force in this system isn't a linear system, the character starts off really weak but by the time they hit 500 they more or less have the flexibility to do anything quite easily. Remember wizards in 3.5? Same kinda deal but less extreme.
It's a unfortunate artifact of the D20 system where force wizards were the most powerful thing ever. That system alone made me despise old people in a way I never thought was possible; we literally had to ban old people because people were only making old characters for that boosted will/int and cha saves or whatever.

The only thing I would add to this there is nothing wrong with adding a new character with 0 earned xp into a longer running campaign with characters with larger earned xp, they will never be useless in the game, and certainly can be half decent at something. These is a difference in combat ability between someone focused on combat and someone focused on social. This game caters to both simultaneously. So a difference in combat ability between players is to be expected. The trick is for the GM to present challenges for them all so that no one person is the prime player and no one is left out either, perhaps not game to game but during the course of a campaign

Personally, it doesn't really bother me that the Form trees, for the most part, lack the Force Rating bump; you're improving the use of your weapon, not your connection to the Force, and also, then you don't feel, maybe, ripped off if you don't use the Lightsaber as your weapon. If you are a blaster-toting Force-user, you'd get little out of Form trees, so, if they don't have the talent, you might not try to master as many, or feel you need to take any.

As for how much you need, I can see where some people get irritable at only having the FR 1-2, with likely conflict, and not being able to, as easily, use the Commit abilities, and still use the Force, but you must remember, the system intends you to occasionally flip Destiny, and get a little Conflict (it's how you evolve, whether light, or dark); if you are still trying to short out the system, and avoid it, you're trying to hurt the system, and sometimes, even their established characters only have a little. Somewhere else here, people were talking about statting several Masters of the Council, and mentioned the Yoda stats. Said they couldn't publish the stats, but that Yoda, even Yoda, was only FR 4, for that build, and the highest of the set. At 4, he could commit one, if he wanted, and still have several dice to pull off the effects he needed. I'd like FR 6, too, but you often only need two pips; one to activate, and one for whatever improvement you want to trigger.