42 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Dragon could also be an indepth look on attachments.

Speaking of attachments, have there been unit attachments?

Not yet, but I could see Followers being an Attachment type.

2 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

It was because the mother of Togashi Hoshi was a Scorpion, which gave Togashi the 12th black scroll, but revealed his true nature to her clan. And that sparked an ongoing assisting throughout the centuries without being a formal alliance, even to that Shoju met Togashi Yokuni before the Scorpion Coup. And the player base of both clans seemed to enjoy it, while AEG tried hard to make stories that broke that connection between them. Good times!

Actually, if I recall correctly it started at a major tournament where a dragon player and scorpion player were matched against each other in single elims. Its kinda fuzzy, but the two players refused to attack each other while the story team looked on. After the game I believe the players signed and traded their clan champions and the story team said as long as those champions were in their decks their alliance would be strong. Hopefully someone else can post on that because its real fuzzy in my memory

2 hours ago, Sendatsu said:

No. We are the only Clan that will have TWO families never exist (unless the story repeats itself), the Tamori (who should never have been created, as the Agasha daimyo remained in the Clan, so the traitors should have been the Gennai family.) and the Hitomi.

Well, it could even be 3 families not existing, since I would not bet on the Hoshi family coming back either.

And with the Phoenix not getting the Agasha, I wonder if FFG will create another family for them, as only 3 seems a bit lacking to me.

6 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Well, it could even be 3 families not existing, since I would not bet on the Hoshi family coming back either.

And with the Phoenix not getting the Agasha, I wonder if FFG will create another family for them, as only 3 seems a bit lacking to me.

Yes, we really need a courtier family, because the Asako courtiers weren't really that great.

Wasn't the Shiba family the one with the courtiers in the old RPG edition (I stopped at the 2nd edition)?

Thematically I think the three Phoenix families are enough; there aren't really any holes in the clan identity, I feel. Having Asako and Shiba courtiers should be enough to fill the political role.

I mean, speaking from a Phoenix perspective, why do you other clans even need more than three families?

2 minutes ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

Thematically I think the three Phoenix families are enough; there aren't really any holes in the clan identity, I feel. Having Asako and Shiba courtiers should be enough to fill the political role.

I mean, speaking from a Phoenix perspective, why do you other clans even need more than three families?

Most clans have a dedicated bushi, a dedicated courtier, and a dedicated shugenja family, and on top of that one specialty family, but in teh case of teh Phoenix the courtier and teh specialty family got mixed together, which I never thought was especially elegant.

I'm expecting to know each Stronghold, Province, at least 1 Holding and the Clan Champion (with the focus of the clan) for each clan at least. Probably there should be a second unique character that has the secondary theme, a couple more characters that expand the primary theme. On the conflict side, 1 attachment and 3-4 events that show the theme(s).

Especially since with time, the Asako became a multi-specialties (Henshin, Inquisitor/Magistrate) family on top of a Shugenja and Courtier one. It blurred the lines of the family and there were times it felt they were even more numerous and proeminent than the Isawa. I feel another family to take part of those themes would be a good thing.

I don't know, the idea that the members of any given family can only do one thing is one that I always felt was a bit unrealistic. I mean why shouldn't there be Isawa bushi, Isawa courtiers, Isawa insurance salesmen, etc.

Card balance-wise I see the point of keeping the families specialized, but it seems like in the world itself family would only imply tendencies, not set-in-stone career paths.

17 minutes ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

I don't know, the idea that the members of any given family can only do one thing is one that I always felt was a bit unrealistic. I mean why shouldn't there be Isawa bushi, Isawa courtiers, Isawa insurance salesmen, etc.

Card balance-wise I see the point of keeping the families specialized, but it seems like in the world itself family would only imply tendencies, not set-in-stone career paths.

There were those, but the characters represented a similar training, not a specific person until they were unique anyway. a non-unique isawa shugenja represented a certain way of training, where as a isawa bushi would be trained in a different school so not representative of a large group. the families have specialized training, hence the characters, doesn't mean all of a family are like that just most of them.

5 hours ago, Drudenfusz said:

Is the feud between the Kakita and the Matsu a thing?

If we're going to change this, I propose changing it to a feud between Kakita and Ikoma. Thus paving the way for the honorable Lion tradition of answering duels with their fists.

"The Crane balk at the notion, but as long as I draw blood from a Kakita's lip, I win." - Ikoma Akimi, Lion Jiujutsu Duelist

If the Phoenix get another family, it shouldn't be the Agasha- who were just more shugenja in a clan full of them.

But their three families at launch do suffer somewhat- not least because the "specialty" family isn't actually the Asako, it's the Isawa... "best" Shugenja being their "specialty" vibe.

The Isawa and Shiba have well-defined roles, as the shugenja and bushi (with Shiba artisans and courtiers popping up in the lore, true, but their identity is as the protectors of the Isawa in particular and the Phoenix as a whole).

The Asako are a hilarious grab-bag, given all of the jobs the Shiba and Isawa don't want. They've got monks (to create friction with the Isawa who are hurt that Lady Asako got the skinny on the Path of Man), they've got courtiers (because... somebody has to do it?), they get the Inquisition...

Ideally, a fourth family would take one of the Asako's jobs to leave them a better focus, even if it's just to create a reliable visual stereotype for card art.

If you see a Phoenix in armor, they're probably a Shiba.

If you see a Phoenix casting a spell, they're probably an Isawa.

If you see a bald Phoenix with prayer beads performing an unarmed kata, a Phoenix courtier, a hooded Phoenix Inquisitor, OR a Phoenix casting a spell, they MIGHT be an Asako.

I'm all for nuance, but the Asako pass through nuance and into lack of clarity.

So I say the Phoenix kidnap the Tonbo and turn them into courtiers. By force. Pacifist force. (Kidding. Mostly.)

Phoenix courtiers (when they even showed up- often you just had a shugenja speaking in court) never really developed an appreciable style- the Doji play the game of favors and courtesy, the Ikoma swagger and brag while observing proper form, the Kitsuki pay attention to detail and the capital-T Truth, the Bayushi use (fun!) dirty tricks, the Ide are open-minded and open-handed, the Yasuki look at the bottom line, and the Asako... uh... read books?

I hope the Agasha stay with the Dragon, where they were appreciated and had a story presence.

Tonbo or Suzume, if they were not closer to Dragon and Crane clans respectively, would make good choices for a 4th Phoenix family. Well, with FFG retake on the background, maybe one of those 2 families could be close to the Phoenix this time. Or maybe, a vassal family could be promoted to a main one.

Or, in order to totally please Gunichi, maybe FFG could give back the Chuda to the Phoenix.

2 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Tonbo or Suzume, if they were not closer to Dragon and Crane clans respectively, would make good choices for a 4th Phoenix family. Well, with FFG retake on the background, maybe one of those 2 families could be close to the Phoenix this time. Or maybe, a vassal family could be promoted to a main one.

Heck, make the Moshi courtiers- the whole pious sun worship thing (that got Yoritomoed into near-oblivion during their time as Mantis) plus proximity plus that bit in the AEG story team's sendoff were their daimyo reminds Isawa Koiso of a shugenja's role in society...

2 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Or, in order to totally please Gunichi, maybe FFG could give back the Chuda to the Phoenix.

Hey, the original pure Chuda were awesome... but in all seriousness, another shugenja family if treated as such would end up like the Agasha among the Phoenix- irrelevant.

There's no real reason that families need to have such rigidly defined roles. Sure, there can be an overall thing that they be best at, but there's no reason to have a fair amount of off-focus people per clan. It's like sports families - usually if the child of a famous athlete goes into sports, it's the same sport. But not always.

One of the old plot points that I thought AEG really bungled was mostly ignoring the fact that Doji Domotai was the granddaughter of Isawa. She was also extensively inspired and instructed by the Matsu. But she was always a non-magical defense-oriented character and card. Can't have the Crane champion be anything but a stereotypical Crane champion. Her son was another sterotypical Crane champion (maybe the Kuni Renyu type character should have been Makoto's brother instead).

Any family from the Phoenix clan could have courtiers. No need to create a new family for it.

FFG could take example from Shinjo Yokatsu and Iuchi Shoan back in the CCG/RPG if they feel that the Phoenix really needs an extra family. Assuming that with the reboot, they did not already give them one back when the kami started the Empire.

2 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Phoenix courtiers (when they even showed up- often you just had a shugenja speaking in court) never really developed an appreciable style- the Doji play the game of favors and courtesy, the Ikoma swagger and brag while observing proper form, the Kitsuki pay attention to detail and the capital-T Truth, the Bayushi use (fun!) dirty tricks, the Ide are open-minded and open-handed, the Yasuki look at the bottom line, and the Asako... uh... read books?

I actually really like the Asako. But I also recognize that my fondness for the Asako stems from the campaigns I've been in (where being super-well-educated is treated as a legitimately useful way to be a courtier), and that in canon fiction they may not have been given as much chance to shine.

1 hour ago, williamobrien said:

One of the old plot points that I thought AEG really bungled was mostly ignoring the fact that Doji Domotai was the granddaughter of Isawa. She was also extensively inspired and instructed by the Matsu. But she was always a non-magical defense-oriented character and card. Can't have the Crane champion be anything but a stereotypical Crane champion. Her son was another sterotypical Crane champion (maybe the Kuni Renyu type character should have been Makoto's brother instead).

Eh, much like Kanpeki (son of two shugenja plot devices), I think a big part of that was that making sure the Champions would fit decktypes.

Besides which, card games are typically absolute trash at showing nuanced depictions, narrative tie-ins be damned.

Case in point- Of 176 Personality cards of the Isawa family name in the CCG, 176 have the shugenja keyword, because even the samurai-heavy decks of the Phoenix usually included a shugenja or seven.

Meanwhile, the Kitsu (another "shugenja family") showed up on 137 cards... of whom only 63 were shugenja- about 45%. Why? Because for most of the game's history, the Lion didn't have much use for shugenja in their decks. The majority of the carded Kitsu shugenja showed up in Emperor Edition when they were one of the "themes."

5 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

I actually really like the Asako. But I also recognize that my fondness for the Asako stems from the campaigns I've been in (where being super-well-educated is treated as a legitimately useful way to be a courtier), and that in canon fiction they may not have been given as much chance to shine.

Part of the problem was that when the official story wanted someone to sound super-educated, they just trotted out a shugenja. Asako Kanta, one of the few pure Phoenix Courtiers to show up in the fiction, stood out mostly be being a naive putz who routinely got outmaneuvered or blindsided- despite his card's flavor text and art implying a calculating individual willing to seek political advantage.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Meanwhile, the Kitsu (another "shugenja family") showed up on 137 cards... of whom only 63 were shugenja- about 45%. Why? Because for most of the game's history, the Lion didn't have much use for shugenja in their decks. The majority of the carded Kitsu shugenja showed up in Emperor Edition when they were one of the "themes."

Searching the Oracle for "kitsu" will give you all of the Kitsuki and Kitsune as results. Leaving out experienced versions, there are only 4 different Kitsu who are not Shugenja, discounting Kitsu Nariyumi.

More than the Isawa, granted ;). Motso, Osen, and Dejiko are exactly what I'm talking about when there should be more "off-focus" family members. Dejiko really should have had a follow up version in the post-Tsudao era. She was commander of the First Legion for much of that time.

Ironically, two of the first four Lion strongholds were Shugenja-focused. Don't let the name fool you, Noble Halls of the Akodo is a Kitsu box.

17 hours ago, Wintersong said:

Horiuchi: FFG, Katrina,... if I had spare money, I would pay thousands to have little gentle Shoan back (and not appear just to throw her into Shadowlands or something ). Ancestral Typos of L5R FTW!!!

I'd chip in for that! Heck, I paid hundreds of dollars to get my Horiuchi card made at the Nebraska Kotei one year. My discretionary funds are smaller nowadays but I don't need my 401K as much as I need my favorite family back.

17 hours ago, Sendatsu said:

No. We are the only Clan that will have TWO families never exist (unless the story repeats itself), the Tamori (who should never have been created, as the Agasha daimyo remained in the Clan, so the traitors should have been the Gennai family.) and the Hitomi.

Well, you'll still have more families to start with than the Spider and the Mantis...

And they could still use the same family names with a different origin for them. They don't necessarily have to include the same story points to use those names for characters.

14 hours ago, JRosen9 said:

Actually, if I recall correctly it started at a major tournament where a dragon player and scorpion player were matched against each other in single elims. Its kinda fuzzy, but the two players refused to attack each other while the story team looked on. After the game I believe the players signed and traded their clan champions and the story team said as long as those champions were in their decks their alliance would be strong. Hopefully someone else can post on that because its real fuzzy in my memory

That is also true (though it was Ree in specific, not any incarnation of the story team), as was Drudenfusz' story summary. It was also regularly reenforced by choices from both clans' players. AEG repeatedly tried to strain the alliance, but missed out on the best opportunities to do so (Iweko elevating Kitsuki Magistrates' methods to sanctioned law, and the Scorpion and Dragon fighting over the Spider).

The big reason for the alliance, honestly, is that neither clan had any reason to oppose each other on a large scale, nor any other strong allies. With the background of Shoju approaching Togashi for advice, and Togashi supporting Kachiko during the Clan War, it just made narrative sense.

No reason for it anymore unless the story team or the players want it.

(Also, the Horiuchi predate the Moto as a Unicorn family.)

1 hour ago, SirEuain said:

(Also, the Horiuchi predate the Moto as a Unicorn family.)

Maybe in the reboot but as far as AGE's version, the Moto were a family since the Ki-Rin wandered trough the Burning Sands, using a red chrysanthemum mon. The Horiuchi was created by Shinjo Yokatsu, when the Dark Moto had already happened thanks to Moto Tsume and their mon changed to kabuki face.

SirEuain probably wasn't talking lore-wise but by their appearance on cards.

Both appeared in Imperial, though the Moto were only with Tsume who was unaligned/shadowlands.

So gamewise the Horiuchi do predate the Moto as a Unicorn family .