5 hours ago, Gazakazan said:

Aces are meant to be a high floor, high ceiling ship with high variance. Hard to fly goes with that. They blow up fast but flown well can solo entire lists. Isn't that the point?

No, not really, they are not meant to have a high variance, they are meant to make it or break it with your flying and most being able to ignore dice variance as they have the tools to make their dices reliable. The generics of the same ship type at the other hand, they are indeed the variance ships-

Why the hell are people talking about PWTs being problematic for aces? Autothrusters make turrets very close to a non-factor for aces, especially ones with the Evade action.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

Why the hell are people talking about PWTs being problematic for aces? Autothrusters make turrets very close to a non-factor for aces, especially ones with the Evade action.

because it takes no skill, unlike not having to worry about what you set your dials as you can boost and barrelroll out of any firing arc you see because they mover before you. Now that is skill by not having to play the guessing game in the planning phase.

2 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

because it takes no skill, unlike not having to worry about what you set your dials as you can boost and barrelroll out of any firing arc you see because they mover before you. Now that is skill by not having to play the guessing game in the planning phase.

If a 34 point Soontir Fel is functionally immune to a 60 point falcon most of the time, he doesn't care how easy their planning phase is.

Just now, Biophysical said:

If a 34 point Soontir Fel is functionally immune to a 60 point falcon most of the time, he doesn't care how easy their planning phase is.

I know, I was being sarcastic making fun of the whole arc dodgers takes more skill than turrets argument.

4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

If a 34 point Soontir Fel is functionally immune to a 60 point falcon most of the time, he doesn't care how easy their planning phase is.

And as that PWT player will always looking for a block opportunity, his planning phase is not that easy, even when soontir twos are rather easy to predict. ;-)

16 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I know, I was being sarcastic making fun of the whole arc dodgers takes more skill than turrets argument.

My bad. Typing while managing small children. I do agree that the skill required for arc dodging is heavily overrated.

Honestly, I just think we Imperial players are missing something, so I keep going back to the drawing board. My difficulty stems from lack of money to invest in ships I absolutely will not use. I know this disadvantages me in regards to upgrades, so I'll obviously continue to struggle through many opposing builds. And, for the record, I'm bored with "Omega Leader" as well. I know he's cheap and effective, but he's a one-trick pony. I guess I prefer a bit of theme and originality. Meh.

Even protectorates struggle versus well flown bombers - and that's despite them having more HP than interceptors, more open dial (thanks to relying on mindlink rather than PTL for action economy) and higher burst damage (so they can actually kill stuff quickly even if they go down in the process).

It is ok for a ship to have a high skill requirement. It is not ok for one to have a counter so hard that no matter the skill level you basically auto-lose. Bombs with Sabine crew are exactly that to imperial aces right now, which drastically reduces the variety of imperial lists. That's why last patch Sabine should have been nerfed along with Manny, Palp, x7 and other stuff. She wasn't hence the empire's dismal performance at Worlds.

11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

My bad. Typing while managing small children. I do agree that the skill required for arc dodging is heavily overrated.

I get the "managing small children" thing, haha! ? Yeah, high PS arc dodging of another ship is fairly easy, but in the current meta, keeping expensive Aces alive, much less killing the high HP enemy ships, IS very difficult.....no, it's just this side of impossible.

7 hours ago, Gazakazan said:

Imperial Aces are dead. Seems to be a general theme I have read on the internet since the FAQ, or that imperial aces simply can't survive in the current meta. They can't deal with TLT. Maranda kills them. Sabrine make them unplayable. There is too much stress in the meta right now.

Aces are meant to be a high floor, high ceiling ship with high varience. Hard to fly goes with that. They blow up fast but flown well can solo entire lists. Isn't that the point?

As I said in another thread; yes. You are right. They are high risk high reward. But in today's world of feedback arrays, bmst, Sabine powered bombs, kylo, autoblaster turrets and other sources of auto damage; they become very risky. An event like worlds is over 3 days. Take the risky list or the one that can a hit or two? Imps CAN win, it just takes some real good flying. Glad to see it's been done recently.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2838

ctr+f soontir, 0 results

Right where they should be. You guys have some serious hate leftover for our boy!

Assuming we start with 34 pt Soontir, can't we build the remaining list to deal with the hard ace counters? I mean we all seem to agree that imperial aces are made for the end game. So bring something with a strong opening and move the game into the end game asap.

Off the top of my head I'd say 2 bombers with LRS and homing missile and EM would have a good synergy. They can hit hard in the opening rounds. Aren't likely to blow up in one shot and might even be able to block with Barrel Roll. Plus you still have 20 pts left. Maybe add a bomber shuttle with support/control. Maybe upgrade the bombers to Tie sf.

18 minutes ago, Gazakazan said:

Assuming we start with 34 pt Soontir, can't we build the remaining list to deal with the hard ace counters? I mean we all seem to agree that imperial aces are made for the end game. So bring something with a strong opening and move the game into the end game asap.

Off the top of my head I'd say 2 bombers with LRS and homing missile and EM would have a good synergy. They can hit hard in the opening rounds. Aren't likely to blow up in one shot and might even be able to block with Barrel Roll. Plus you still have 20 pts left. Maybe add a bomber shuttle with support/control. Maybe upgrade the bombers to Tie sf.

I've been pairing him with a pair of SFs, which are pretty solid against most of the really hard ace counters. I've been having success locally, but haven't had a chance to test it against wider competition. The wonders of combined arms.

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

My bad. Typing while managing small children. I do agree that the skill required for arc dodging is heavily overrated.

Pretty much this. Soontir is my all-time favourite pilot, but repositioning when almost every single ship in the table has moved isn't much skill. It's an informed decision; something I find most people hard to differentiate with skilled flying. Honestly catching an opponent inside a low ps' arc having considered their repositioning capabilities takes more skill.

On the subject, OP's point is valid. I mentioned this in other thread: Soontir Fel never truly went out of the meta. The world just decided to turn its back against the Baron.

Did bombs kill him? K-wings existed when the Baron reigned supreme.
Did Dengar kill him? Well probably if Dengar had initiative. but if Soontir had it, he'd be eating Dengar for breakfast.
Did ordnance kill him? Imperial Aces were the solution during the rise of triple uboats with its un-nerfed deadeye + R4 agromech shenanigans.
Did Autoblaster Miranda vaporized your Soontir in one shot? #Flybetter.

I'll be flying the following squadron this coming Tuesday:

Rexler Brath (37) w/ Decoy (2), x7 Title (-2), and Stealth Device (3); 40 points.

"Echo" (30) w/ Veteran Instincts (1), Advanced Cloaking Device (4), and Fire Control System (2); 37 points.

"Countdown" (20) w/ Adaptive Ailerons (0) and Hull Upgrade (3); 23 points.

100/100

19 minutes ago, Grivoire said:

Did bombs kill him? K-wings existed when the Baron reigned supreme.

The consensus seems to be that Sabine is what makes the bombs untenable, not the bombs on their own.

6 minutes ago, HammerGibbens said:

The consensus seems to be that Sabine is what makes the bombs untenable, not the bombs on their own.

That's why I ended up pairing him with SFs, which are pretty respectable against bomber K-wings. He doesn't have to carry the game in every game. Fel and the SFs are different enough that stuff that owns one usually doesn't own the other. If you split Fel from your SFs, the K-wings have some difficult decisions.

27 minutes ago, Grivoire said:

Pretty much this. Soontir is my all-time favourite pilot, but repositioning when almost every single ship in the table has moved isn't much skill. It's an informed decision; something I find most people hard to differentiate with skilled flying. Honestly catching an opponent inside a low ps' arc having considered their repositioning capabilities takes more skill.

On the subject, OP's point is valid. I mentioned this in other thread: Soontir Fel never truly went out of the meta. The world just decided to turn its back against the Baron.

Did bombs kill him? K-wings existed when the Baron reigned supreme.
Did Dengar kill him? Well probably if Dengar had initiative. but if Soontir had it, he'd be eating Dengar for breakfast.
Did ordnance kill him? Imperial Aces were the solution during the rise of triple uboats with its un-nerfed deadeye + R4 agromech shenanigans.
Did Autoblaster Miranda vaporized your Soontir in one shot? #Flybetter.

While I have an answer for everyone of your points, I think it is better to issue this challenge: Prove people who say Fel is dead wrong. Store Champion season is starting, excellent time to start working on and refining builds. Competition should be decent with some meta lists popping up here and there. And if the season goes well, Regionals are the next step. If you can place in top eight with a list with Fel against all the usual customers, your point will have been well made.

This goes out to all who read this who think that Imperial Aces are fine as they are. Current data isn't supporting that and people I trust have been trying to get them work to little success. Ball's in your court.

9 minutes ago, HammerGibbens said:

The consensus seems to be that Sabine is what makes the bombs untenable, not the bombs on their own.

In my case, I fly Soontir or Inquisitor with Major Stridan. Coordinate does these amazing shenanigans:

1. If you see an impending mine/bomb drops next round, you can BR+Boost out to safety and irk your opponent.
2. If you see K-wings closing in to you, you can again BR+Boost to block the K-wing. I've done this to a number of Miranda players, much to their frustration.

9 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

While I have an answer for everyone of your points, I think it is better to issue this challenge: Prove people who say Fel is dead wrong. Store Champion season is starting, excellent time to start working on and refining builds. Competition should be decent with some meta lists popping up here and there. And if the season goes well, Regionals are the next step. If you can place in top eight with a list with Fel against all the usual customers, your point will have been well made.

This goes out to all who read this who think that Imperial Aces are fine as they are. Current data isn't supporting that and people I trust have been trying to get them work to little success. Ball's in your court.

Fair enough. My local scene is no longer supported by FFG OP, but we have an unofficial national championship in June. I will fly a list that includes Soontir and get back to you. Just don't blame it on the Baron if it turns out that I myself need to #flybetter.

5 minutes ago, Grivoire said:

Fair enough. My local scene is no longer supported by FFG OP, but we have an unofficial national championship in June. I will fly a list that includes Soontir and get back to you. Just don't blame it on the Baron if it turns out that I myself need to #flybetter.

That's definitely why I'm hoping others will take up the challenge. More data points will provide more conclusive data to draw conclusions from.

They can't hang. These imperial pilots with some of the best abilities in the game, are on outdated ships. Soontir, Vader, inquisitor, Jax, whisper,OL would see play on almost any ship. They would all be sooooo much better in almost any other ship.

Outside of whipser, each is a wave 1-2 ship or the better version of those ships. They can't compete as they haven't been updated to do so.

To me Fenn is almost a guaranteed [MoV Denial] - Each time I face him, I will rarely come up against one that makes a mistake and lets me destroy it - so I focus the rest of the list to only have Fenn alive at the end and dance around him since he is way less mobile than Soontir in playing 'catch me if you can'.

I also had a casual match where my Omega Leader danced for about 45 minutes being the last one against Fenn but he managed to get me when he was at 1 hull left.

I've gone back to playing T70s and TIE/SFs, much more fun, even if winning competitive matches or coming out #1 in a tournament takes much more effort and luck than the easy mode that Scum players are having right now with all the right tools (fenn, old teroch, mindlink, asajj, automatic tractor beams, etc.) - The old palp aces just shifted to Scum - I don't see many or any sabine crew players in my area, might be why, and I've a hard time justifying a list around her just to deal with "what if I face Fenn" when there are also monstrous lists like Dengar + Asajj~

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

While I have an answer for everyone of your points, I think it is better to issue this challenge: Prove people who say Fel is dead wrong. Store Champion season is starting, excellent time to start working on and refining builds. Competition should be decent with some meta lists popping up here and there. And if the season goes well, Regionals are the next step. If you can place in top eight with a list with Fel against all the usual customers, your point will have been well made.

This goes out to all who read this who think that Imperial Aces are fine as they are. Current data isn't supporting that and people I trust have been trying to get them work to little success. Ball's in your court.

I've got a squad with him on my short list for Store Champs. To explain my position a little, I've never played Fel before a few weeks ago. I tossed him in a squad for a local tournament just to see what would happen. I won with the squad, having never played with Fel against another human being. The speed, responsiveness, and firepower (using Targeting Computer), as well as the resistance to turrets, was terrific. I never played him at his height, though, and I don't own the Emperor. To me, he was just another part of the squad, and I didn't have any deep need for him to be alive at the endgame to close it out. It he knifed in and did some solid damage and put my other ships in a good position to win, that was fine by me. I probably used him a little more like Scum players use Fenn Rau, A hammer with A ticking clock at the worst, and against certain matchups, far more than that.