Imperial Aces are dead. Seems to be a general theme I have read on the internet since the FAQ, or that imperial aces simply can't survive in the current meta. They can't deal with TLT. Maranda kills them. Sabrine make them unplayable. There is too much stress in the meta right now.
Aces are meant to be a high floor, high ceiling ship with high varience. Hard to fly goes with that. They blow up fast but flown well can solo entire lists. Isn't that the point?
11 minutes ago, Gazakazan said:Aces are meant to be a high floor, high ceiling ship with high varience. Hard to fly goes with that. They blow up fast but flown well can solo entire lists. Isn't that the point?
In current meta there is no skill ceiling for imperial aces - they are just murdered by bombs, stress, countless anti-ace upgrades and inflated red dice. Empire does not have a tools currently to make them consistent in tournament play.
Look at Fenn Rau - in a way he is your classical ace and yet he survived in this meta - mainly because Scum got proper tools to made him playable and ship itself is strong enough.
Imperial Aces are just too weak - and skill got nothing to do with it.
I think that the imperials need to be flown differently and that's why they're struggling. I'm not sure how, but I'm going to start down that dark path
For me it's hard to feel bad for imp aces after years of struggling against them with jousting lists. Getting arc dodged or denying my shots with all their defensive mods.
There is a difference between difficulty and the situation now. If it were simply down to player skill, we should still see Imp Aces doing well in the hands of good players, but we don't.
Over in MajorJuggler's 2017 store chaimpion, it is nice to see Imps take the second spot an with Inquisitor, but from the sound of it, there wasn't a lot of meta lists in force at that Store Championship, so the results don't really tell us a heck of a lot. Plus, that's still not classic Aces like Fel.
Against Attani Mindlink and PWT there isn't much to be done...
Just now, Stefan said:Against Attani Mindlink and PWT there isn't much to be done...
Not so much PWT. Traditional Aces were well equipped (with Autothrusters) to deal with them.
And that is a problem !
With now with bombs/turrets everwhere you're doomed if you play with it. You will lose it before you active them. This is why most imperial take defender and tie/sf because they have shield.
Don't forget we have now more "add more red dice in your pool"
26 minutes ago, Embir82 said:
Look at Fenn Rau - in a way he is your classical ace and yet he survived in this meta - mainly because Scum got proper tools to made him playable and ship itself is strong enough.
Actually, Fenn operates entirely differently than most Imperial aces.
Fenn is a manned torpedo. Even if he dies quickly in a match full of anti-ace tools, if he gets 1-2 good attack runs he's still made a hell of a contribution.
Meanwhile Imperial Aces are built for the long game. Not taking damage and then slowly taking you apart in the end game while you struggle with their arc dodging shenanigans and token stacks. A Soontir that gets 1-2 attack runs and then dies has contributed very little.
This is the most frustrating truth about this game. Imperial Aces should be capable of playing against any enemy squad and have a very good chance in the hands of a skilled pilot. But.....they don't. Every game implementation post Wave 4 has been intent on destroying arc dodgers; that dovetailed with red dice creep has changed the game drastically. So now you can only play Scum, Miranda and/or Control. High skill flying is a lost art with no real place.
The game designers have killed the real Aces, they are to blame.
33 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:This is the most frustrating truth about this game. Imperial Aces should be capable of playing against any enemy squad and have a very good chance in the hands of a skilled pilot. But.....they don't. Every game implementation post Wave 4 has been intent on destroying arc dodgers; that dovetailed with red dice creep has changed the game drastically. So now you can only play Scum, Miranda and/or Control. High skill flying is a lost art with no real place.
The game designers have killed the real Aces, they are to blame.
Aces like Soontir weren't really high skill flying, IMO at least.As long as you can avoid the block, you have access to 2 repositioning moves with (almost) full knowledge of where everyone else ended up.
Just now, LordBlades said:Aces like Soontir weren't really high skill flying, IMO at least. As long as you can avoid the block , you have access to 2 repositioning moves with (almost) full knowledge of where everyone else ended up.
Yes, true in a way, but this isn't easy, especially against large bases that are so prevalent now. Plus, they evaporate under fire of any type now, especially ordinance. Bombs pretty much disintegrate Aces and you CANNOT get caught stressed now and Aces need to self-stress to get where they will not get obliterated. Even if you can, there's stress givers out there looking to wreck your ability to move or self-stress. Now, freighters can move, barrel-roll and reposition as good or better than most Aces of yore... it's sad. It's stupid. It's down-right illogical and infuriating. In tournament situations it f***ing sucks. It's everything that's bad about the game (Jumps, VCXs, Protectorates, etc.) shutting out everything that's good about the game (T-65s, B-Wings, Bombers, A-Wings, Interceptors, etc.). Yeah, I'm salty.
but done now. ?
Jax is still a beast and thrives in this Mindlink Meta. His problem is bombs and stress, however, bombs aren't that abundant as Mindlink and stress counter can be built in a list. No list can be good against every matchup.
1 hour ago, LordBlades said:Actually, Fenn operates entirely differently than most Imperial aces.
Fenn is a manned torpedo. Even if he dies quickly in a match full of anti-ace tools, if he gets 1-2 good attack runs he's still made a hell of a contribution.
Meanwhile Imperial Aces are built for the long game. Not taking damage and then slowly taking you apart in the end game while you struggle with their arc dodging shenanigans and token stacks. A Soontir that gets 1-2 attack runs and then dies has contributed very little.
Fenn CAN operate differently than Imperial Aces - because he got powerful defensive and offensive buff in range 1. But it is only one of the ways of using him. You might as well flank him, delay your 4 straight and hit enemy from behind - and in this regard he operates exactly like a classical ace. He got high agility, mobility, great dial, authothrusters and great action economy - he is classical ace with extra bit, namely huge offensive power.
But hey, salt goes well on fries. When I'm in a high competition game, I fly FennBobaBoats....fun, easy, brutal, and wins more often than I can recall. It's not Star Wars, but "you can't always get what you want."
I'm less concerned about the ships I purchased being largely ineffectual against "the winning meta" as I am bored to tears seeing "the winning meta" on EVERY. D@MNED. TABLE. Seriously, three JM5K or two with Rau...forget playing, just watching those games is uninteresting.
You know, everyone would be good at hauling in fish if they used dynamite.
55 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:It's everything that's bad about the game (Jumps, VCXs, Protectorates, etc.) shutting out everything that's good about the game (T-65s, B-Wings, Bombers, A-Wings, Interceptors, etc.).
So the ships you like are 'everything that's good about the game' and the ships you don't like are 'everything that's bad about the game'?
52 minutes ago, Embir82 said:Fenn CAN operate differently than Imperial Aces - because he got powerful defensive and offensive buff in range 1. But it is only one of the ways of using him. You might as well flank him, delay your 4 straight and hit enemy from behind - and in this regard he operates exactly like a classical ace. He got high agility, mobility, great dial, authothrusters and great action economy - he is classical ace with extra bit, namely huge offensive power.
Fenn lacks one essential thing to be a classical ace: the Evade action. As such he can't get nearly the same mitigation overall.
Edited by LordBlades7 minutes ago, LordBlades said:Fenn lacks one essential thing to be a classical ace: the Evade action. As such he can't get nearly the same mitigation, even at range 1
Well, who said evade is essential to describe one as Ace?
In my opinion Ace is ship with high agility, dial good enough to use PtL, or other form of good action economy, and high Pilot Skill. I wouldn't count evade as essential action. Of course it all comes down to semantics in this case.
2 minutes ago, LordBlades said:Fenn lacks one essential thing to be a classical ace: the Evade action. As such he can't get nearly the same mitigation overall.
This, aces are like Muhamed Ali dancing and avoiding being hit while wearing an opponent down. No one hit is that hard but take 30 to the face mixed with frustration of not landing one and you go down.
Fenn is more like Tyson, a ridiculous hammer throwing knock out after knock out and tough enough to take your counters because he knows you won't withdstand his for long.
The current meta is basically tying Ali's shoes together before the fight.
21 minutes ago, Alekzanter said:I'm less concerned about the ships I purchased being largely ineffectual against "the winning meta" as I am bored to tears seeing "the winning meta" on EVERY. D@MNED. TABLE. Seriously, three JM5K or two with Rau...forget playing, just watching those games is uninteresting.
You know, everyone would be good at hauling in fish if they used dynamite.
The winning meta - neither of the lists you described won worlds. Sure, the winning meta involves JMs, but considering rebels got to top table at Worlds, with 2 movie ships, it's not entirely bad.
5 minutes ago, Embir82 said:Well, who said evade is essential to describe one as Ace?
In my opinion Ace is ship with high agility, dial good enough to use PtL, or other form of good action economy, and high Pilot Skill. I wouldn't count evade as essential action. Of course it all comes down to semantics in this case.
Sure, you could technically be an ace if you have focus, TL, SLAM, at PS9 with PTL. However, the evade is fairly essential - it's a guaranteed -1 damage (except in edge cases) and can be vital.
2 hours ago, Estarriol said:I think that the imperials need to be flown differently
Insomuch as they actually need to be flown.
Bazinga!
Edited by DarthEnderXPlaying aces in the bomb/stress meta is like playing b wings in an ace meta.
30 minutes ago, Embir82 said:Well, who said evade is essential to describe one as Ace?
In my opinion Ace is ship with high agility, dial good enough to use PtL, or other form of good action economy, and high Pilot Skill. I wouldn't count evade as essential action. Of course it all comes down to semantics in this case.
Evade, and many the ability to Focus+Evade (and Palp on top of that) enables a certain defensive playstyle that has become widely associated with Imperial Aces and which Fenn simply cannot do.
No matter how you define an 'ace' fact remains yo simply can't fly Fenn like you do Soontir.
1 hour ago, Alekzanter said:I'm less concerned about the ships I purchased being largely ineffectual against "the winning meta" as I am bored to tears seeing "the winning meta" on EVERY. D@MNED. TABLE. Seriously, three JM5K or two with Rau...forget playing, just watching those games is uninteresting.
You know, everyone would be good at hauling in fish if they used dynamite.
This.
But obviously it's what FFG wants.
31 minutes ago, LordBlades said:Evade, and many the ability to Focus+Evade (and Palp on top of that) enables a certain defensive playstyle that has become widely associated with Imperial Aces and which Fenn simply cannot do.
No matter how you define an 'ace' fact remains you simply can't fly Fenn like you do Soontir .
Which is a d*** good thing for Fenn, or he'd be B-team like Soontir. With Torp boats and MindLink, you fly like Fenn, forget Arc dodging like waves ago, this is a new era, token, Mindlink, torp, Boba, then smash 'em range one with 5 dice-target-lock-focus. Done.