Ok, first, some caveats:

I know there are likely a ton of these kinds of threads, but none with obvious titles that I saw on the first few pages, and they normally get buried in negativity. I also know that these kinds of posts are really just intellectual exercises since the developers will do what the developers will do. That being said:

I think it's clear (even to me, who has been a staunch defender of Rebel Squadron builds) that a specific combo has grown to the point that it dominates large tournaments. This (not unlike trip jumpmasters or manaroo in X-Wing) seems to be about where FFG tends to bring out the nerf bat. I would like to try and have a civil conversation about where people think the problem is and how the best way to fix it is. Let me lead off.

My understanding is that the problem isn't localized to Rieekan, Yavaris, Relay, or Flotillas individually. It is the perfect storm of all those pieces together that does it. So the way I see it, the best method is to either wait and see what the next wave brings, or have a few small tweaks to a few of those cards rather than one huge nerf.

Relay: the issue here is that flotillas (and yavaris) can hang out well out of the fight and still command squadrons through relay squadrons. I think maybe making that the relay squadron needs to be in range of the commanding ship in order to relay (in fact, that's how I thought it worked originally). That way relay is a helpful range extender while not working all the way across the map. Alternatively, make relay stop working if the relay squad is engaged. That gives the opponent a way to answer it.

Flotillas: I like Flotillas, I think they add a great dimension to the game. I do feel that 2 ships and 3 Flotillas is a little ridiculous and way out of theme for a game called Armada. Look at it this way: would an ISD blow away all the combat ships in a fleet but still call it a loss if there are some GR-75s floating around? Heck no! At that point it becomes a mop up after a decisive victory. Therefore, I think it is easiest and makes the most sense if Flotillas don't count as ships for being tabled. If all your non-flotilla ships are destroyed, you lose. Flotillas still have a place, but they aren't auto-include in large numbers.

Yavaris: I feel like the Relay change above brings Yavaris back in line, since it has to be closer to the action where it's side arc frailty can be exploited. Alternatively, make relay only work on the normal squadron activation, not modified activation rules, but that's a clunky bit of wording and doesn't fix Flotillas hiding in the corner and commanding squadrons.

Rieekan: I don't know. I think the other changes are enough without also nerfing Rieekan. Maybe if he only worked on ships, or if squadrons lost their non-keyword abilities? Either way, I think a lot of malarkey gets toned down with the changes to relay and Flotillas, and a change isn't necessary.

What do other people think? Should we just sit tight? Do you think tweaking Flotillas and relay will be enough? Is more needed?

And remember, let's keep it civil.

I like all your solutions.

Relay: I support it all the way. It's still a great range extender, it can be longer than long range: still a great benefit. Infinite range is ridiculous.

Flotillas: I don't like the idea that Flotillas count towards squadrons, because I loves me my squadrons and I don't want to have to limit them even more. But I do like your solution. It's pretty simple, and it gives you the tough tactical choice when fighting them: do I knock them out because they annoy me, or just ignore them.

Rieekan: I have never liked Rieekan, but you are right, maybe a change won't be need by then. I think he could do without the unique squadrons though.

Nice thoughts, I guess we'll see what happens.

I'm curious about the "flotillas don't count as ships for tabling" rule. Are people playing games where they destroy all of their opponents ships other than the flotillas and still losing? From my experience, if all my opponent has left is some flotilla and squads, I've done pretty well. Is this about people upset they can't get 10/1 consistently at a tourney because the can't catch a couple flotillas in the corner?

I think if Relay has to be in range of the commanding ship, it makes it too tricky to be worthwhile. You'd be getting rid of the relay problem by getting rid of relay. It would need to also change to be unlimited activations or something like that for me to want to take Relay ships like that.

Yavaris is very strong. Like Demolisher. Those two have always been each others foil in my mind. And it's true Relay really works well with Yavaris, but I'd hate to see a change to Relay just to accommodate one title.

It's not my idea, I saw it suggested somewhere else here, but an interesting change to Rieeken was to have him select a couple squads at the start of each round that would benefit from his zombie powers for that turn, like how Hera works with giving out rogue. Then he kind of works the same, almost anyway, but doesn't get stronger and stronger as an admiral as more and more cheap unique squads get released.

I think a excellent "fix" for armada is to address the biggest complaint that Ive seen people posting in my topic.... the lack of Venators in both Rebel and Imperial Fleets! It has gone on for to long and every wave announced, the problem continues. Stop allowing FFG to keep feeding us random ships from new movies and shows when we still have not shown enough love to the first 6 movies!

WHAT DO WE WANT! VENATOR! WHERE DO WE WANT IT! ARMADA! LETS GO FFG! VENATOR!

This PSA has been brought to you by #TeamVenator.

Actually I think the fix to all is to have flotillas in the squadron point allocation.

I long for big ship battles and flotillas have made this less viable. Give people the option just one little change will radically change many lists

I think limiting flotillas to a 1:1 ratio of other ships would work best, cut off the abuse without wrecking the squad points or table clearing nalance

1 hour ago, homedrone said:

I'm curious about the "flotillas don't count as ships for tabling" rule. Are people playing games where they destroy all of their opponents ships other than the flotillas and still losing? From my experience, if all my opponent has left is some flotilla and squads, I've done pretty well. Is this about people upset they can't get 10/1 consistently at a tourney because the can't catch a couple flotillas in the corner?

It happened at worlds JJ lost 7-4 because he could not kill one Flotilla and there was a whole mess of squadrons. this rule could have drastically tipped the margin to him. I myself have lost many a game because I destroyed all the capital ships, but 1 or 2 flotillas just get away with a decent amount of squadrons.

I have an idea:

Let FFG handle it

(it was a little funny, ok)

1 hour ago, xero989 said:

It happened at worlds JJ lost 7-4 because he could not kill one Flotilla and there was a whole mess of squadrons. this rule could have drastically tipped the margin to him. I myself have lost many a game because I destroyed all the capital ships, but 1 or 2 flotillas just get away with a decent amount of squadrons.

To build on this, it also changes how you approach attacking a fleet. If you know you can win by knocking two ships out, you can go BTTW agaisnt them in a way you can't if by doing so you're gonna lose on points to those three flotes and squads you ignored.

Honestly the only thing I can see needing fixing is to have a few more upgrades that helps ships deal with squadrons. Examples more anti squadron crit effects similar to flechette torpedoes or at least have crits cause damage to squadrons. Just make things a bit more balanced between ships and squadrons.

I want flotilla points to count towards squadron allowances, and flotillas to not count as ships for tabling ( as in if you only have flotillas you're tabled.)

that would fix the issue for me.

I would say playtest these at your own tables before dumping on them. They're nice and simple and obvious. I'd probably do flotillas aren't scoring first. IMHO this is the simplest fix that gives non-squadron based fleets a clear path to victory and punishes people who try to exploit the advantages of cheap activation and Relay hiding - without punishing excessively the people who have a single flotilla to push some squadrons. It also makes sense thematically.

After that, if it STILL isn't enough to tone down the Rieekan ball, then test the Relay change (has to be in Range 1-5 of the commanding ship?), and after that, if it STILL isn't enough, then hit Rieekan.

Have squadrons take damage from crits as well as hit

Or, just wait paiently for wave 6, and the next OP flavor of the month meta shift.

I still don't see this as any different than the Ackbar/ Demo/ Rhymer.... is OP panic of the past, other than the fact that it hit full bloom at worlds. I'm still convinced there is a hard counter to the Rieekan, Yavaris, Aceholes lists. I still don't have an issue with the game as is.

Give me cool new upgrades to counter with free market solutions, instead of knee-jerk nerfing something because it is currently perceived to be too good.

The flotilla not counting as a ship for victory is the simplest way to fix that issue. I've run an ISD/3gonz with 134 points of squads to good effect but would rather run an ISD/GSD/ARQ/GONZ with a few squads to escort. But with Reb aceholes hiding behind every asteroid, escorting their frigates and TRC90s and not going away when they die, I don't feel like I can. So when you find that hard counter that hard Imp counter, let me know. I'm racking my brain for the Imp solution.

There is no need to fix armada, because the fleet itself doesnt automatically win a battle, its just as important to learn and fly it properly.

This "OMFG armada is screwed and dead, the game is unbalanced and the only way to win is playing with yadda yadda yadda,lets nerf it all" that has been utterly blazing through the forums this past week is going beyond boring now, lets stop it.

So a fleet type was prelevant at worlds, so what? It just means that those players felt most comfortable taking those fleets (for whatever reason). It doesnt mean that that is a problem in the game world wide, it doesnt mean the fleet is even a problem. I certainly dont see those sorts of fleets (the so called Reekan aceholes) where i play often, and when i do they arent on any level 'invincible'

I suppose i hate this bashing of certain list types (and it changes every wave people, because the game is believe it or not still growing -_-) because in my view not one list type has a hard counter, its all about skill and experience versing these lists that allow you to build a list AND be able to fly it well.

In the future we may end up going the way of X-wing were only certain lists have a chance of winning, but we are not there yet and i highly doubt we ever will. Every list built in armada needs to be flown well, not just built well.

Lets stop this degeneration of the forums.

(P.s. and i will say it now cause i can feel the hate already and i havent even posted this yet, but this is not just directed at this topic and not at just one person, but rather my built up feelings on the matter over the past couple of weeks)

P.p.s im typing on a smaller phone, sorry for any spelling mistakes

If M.G. was intensely studying the situation at Worlds I'm expecting a "market correction" in wave 7.

If 2017 Worlds was the first major competition where this issue was risen Wave 6 will be a bit too early for FFG to adjust to the problem.

I would like to add that I'm playing a lot of Armada and no one in our group is playing these "meta" fleets, we're still having fun and we're still winning with what would be consisdered "losing" fleets.

So IMHO all this fuss is with highly competitive fleets an doesn't impact on my games so I'm not all that fussed........yet

24 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

There is no need to fix armada, because the fleet itself doesnt automatically win a battle, its just as important to learn and fly it properly.

This "OMFG armada is screwed and dead, the game is unbalanced and the only way to win is playing with yadda yadda yadda,lets nerf it all" that has been utterly blazing through the forums this past week is going beyond boring now, lets stop it.

So a fleet type was prelevant at worlds, so what? It just means that those players felt most comfortable taking those fleets (for whatever reason). It doesnt mean that that is a problem in the game world wide, it doesnt mean the fleet is even a problem. I certainly dont see those sorts of fleets (the so called Reekan aceholes) where i play often, and when i do they arent on any level 'invincible'

I suppose i hate this bashing of certain list types (and it changes every wave people, because the game is believe it or not still growing -_-) because in my view not one list type has a hard counter, its all about skill and experience versing these lists that allow you to build a list AND be able to fly it well.

In the future we may end up going the way of X-wing were only certain lists have a chance of winning, but we are not there yet and i highly doubt we ever will. Every list built in armada needs to be flown well, not just built well.

Lets stop this degeneration of the forums.

(P.s. and i will say it now cause i can feel the hate already and i havent even posted this yet, but this is not just directed at this topic and not at just one person, but rather my built up feelings on the matter over the past couple of weeks)

P.p.s im typing on a smaller phone, sorry for any spelling mistakes

This is one of the least helpful posts I have ever seen that didn't cross into being rude (for that I give you credit). You have just as much a burden of proof (or more) post-worlds to prove that Rieeken isn't OP.

Why. Why. WHY! Is there an assumption that FFG has been able to PERFECTLY balance a game?

10 minutes ago, ryanabt said:

This is one of the least helpful posts I have ever seen that didn't cross into being rude (for that I give you credit). You have just as much a burden of proof (or more) post-worlds to prove that Rieeken isn't OP.

Why. Why. WHY! Is there an assumption that FFG has been able to PERFECTLY balance a game?

^bump

8 minutes ago, Vetnor said:

I would like to add that I'm playing a lot of Armada and no one in our group is playing these "meta" fleets, we're still having fun and we're still winning with what would be consisdered "losing" fleets.

So IMHO all this fuss is with highly competitive fleets an doesn't impact on my games so I'm not all that fussed........yet

The corrections won't impact your casual games, though - and may head off problems in the future, if someone latches onto the broken lists in your group.

36 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

In the future we may end up going the way of X-wing were only certain lists have a chance of winning, but we are not there yet and i highly doubt we ever will. Every list built in armada needs to be flown well, not just built well.

Actual quotes I have seen:

"Whisper is balanced, you just have to know how to fly against her."

"Fan Han is fine, just take a swarm."

"TLT isn't OP, are you nuts? It's the only good turret!"

"Palp is the only thing keeping Imps viable" (in all fairness, I don't think that poster was wrong...)

And recently there's been a flood of "Jumpmasters are fine, you don't need to nerf them any more!"

A game doesn't suddenly become unbalanced; it's a gradual process, a negative feedback loop. Better to correct that process early on - and all too often, the ones who cried, "Oh, the game is just fine!" don't have a clue. They're focused on a tree, and not able to see the forest.

1 hour ago, ryanabt said:

This is one of the least helpful posts I have ever seen that didn't cross into being rude (for that I give you credit). You have just as much a burden of proof (or more) post-worlds to prove that Rieeken isn't OP.

Why. Why. WHY! Is there an assumption that FFG has been able to PERFECTLY balance a game?

Thanks, I try to stay polite

i didn't say or state that FFG has perfectly balanced armada, nor did I intend to come across that way, but I don't believe armada is anywhere near unbalanced either.

21 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

snip

A game doesn't suddenly become unbalanced; it's a gradual process, a negative feedback loop. Better to correct that process early on - and all too often, the ones who cried, "Oh, the game is just fine!" don't have a clue. They're focused on a tree, and not able to see the forest.

any unbalances do get corrected though..... We haven't even seen what wave 6 will do yet and FFG is tirelessly working on all their games, which do happen to include armada, to keep them as balanced as possible, that's why new waves are still coming and when this wave comes out I expect to see a decrease in "omg reeikan op" and a brand new "this card is too strong"

(once again small phone screen, will post and fix things up later once I get back to my iPad)

9 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

Thanks, I try to stay polite

i didn't say or state that FFG has perfectly balanced armada, nor did I intend to come across that way, but I don't believe armada is anywhere near unbalanced either.

any unbalances do get corrected though..... We haven't even seen what wave 6 will do yet and FFG is tirelessly working on all their games, which do happen to include armada, to keep them as balanced as possible, that's why new waves are still coming and when this wave comes out I expect to see a decrease in "omg reeikan op" and a brand new "this card is too strong"

(once again small phone screen, will post and fix things up later once I get back to my iPad)

Historically you're not supported: Wave 4-6 is considered the lowest point in Xwing history, with the Fat Han build starting in wave4 surviving all the way to the end of wave6. It wasn't ended until they made a game rule nerf AND a hard counter to it came out (which became the next OP thing).

So if we were to precedentally analyze your claim, it would fall under: unsound.

You also have the burden of proof to claim that Rieekan squadrons are not overpowered.

16 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

Thanks, I try to stay polite

i didn't say or state that FFG has perfectly balanced armada, nor did I intend to come across that way, but I don't believe armada is anywhere near unbalanced either.

any unbalances do get corrected though..... We haven't even seen what wave 6 will do yet and FFG is tirelessly working on all their games, which do happen to include armada, to keep them as balanced as possible, that's why new waves are still coming and when this wave comes out I expect to see a decrease in "omg reeikan op" and a brand new "this card is too strong"

(once again small phone screen, will post and fix things up later once I get back to my iPad)

FFG... doesn't really do well for fixing imbalanced games. In fact, I'd venture to say they're BAD at it, if we view their historical record, and their usual method of 'fixing' things only unbalances them worse. Netrunner? X-Wing? Whatever it is that squad-based game is called? And have you played the Edge of the Empire RPG? I seriously went back to the WEG d6 game, bought copies on eBay and everything - and then the group self-destructed just before I converted everyone's characters over.

I just moved to Armada because I felt, eyeballing it, that this was a much more fun game with a better thematic tie to the Star Wars universe, and the Corellian Campaign reminded me of a long-ago RPG campaign where the GM said that Luke failed, the Death Star killed the central Rebel leadership, and we had a splinter of the fleet to try and reunite and reignite the spark with.

But after testing both flavors of Rieekan (ramming and squads), it's... pretty brutal. The answers for it require you to double down so hard that it leaves you vulnerable to more balanced lists, and even IF you double down you still have trouble beating it.

12 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Historically you're not supported: Wave 4-6 is considered the lowest point in Xwing history, with the Fat Han build starting in wave4 surviving all the way to the end of wave6. It wasn't ended until they made a game rule nerf AND a hard counter to it came out (which became the next OP thing).

So if we were to precedentally analyze your claim, it would fall under: unsound.

You also have the burden of proof to claim that Rieekan squadrons are not overpowered.

Based on Regionals data. Rieekan/Yavaris/125+ Squads: 10 examples, 7 top 4 results, 1 bottom Quarter. (expected 2.1 top 4, 2.5 bottom quarter)

This is statistically significantly better results than 125+ squads alone. Interestingly, while 125+ squads are statistically better than the overall regionals population, Yavaris/125+/Non-Rieekan was not.

Rieekan without `125+ squads was also below expected, but not to a statistically significant degree due to low sample size (33 examples, 11 bottom quarter, 4 top 4 results.)