28 minutes ago, ManateeX said:

he's certainly not anywhere close to as bad as Union suggests here.

You're right, I'm underselling it, he's worse. I didn't even talk about his +2 accuracy going away when he's wounded which means if you're actually taking advantage of that ability with a high damage low accuracy gun, he becomes especially worthless when he gets wounded. I didn't talk about how he's one of the few characters who doesn't get a bonus attack, which, coupled with his low contribution to damage with his other abilities, makes him the lowest damage output in the game.

A comparison between him and any other character will have him come up worse in the majority of categories and in the entire game the only category he is best at is opening crates.

I've played every hero through at least 1 campaign and Loku through 3. I've used every one of his cards and given him a variety of weapons (although no lightsaber.) He is unequivocally complete and total ****. I won't play him anymore even if I want to handicap myself against an inexperienced Imperial player because he isn't even interesting to play.

11 minutes ago, Union said:

I've played every hero through at least 1 campaign and Loku through 3. I've used every one of his cards and given him a variety of weapons (although no lightsaber.)

Ironically, my wife played Loku with the Ancient Lightsaber on our first campaign finale. Loku's strong observation skills, plus his recon tokens, plus the fact that the particular mission we were on had the heroes facing against a "boss" meant that he was absolute killer in that mission.

So yeah, I'd argue that in a game like this, situation also heavily determines a character's worth, but I don't think Union really needs to rage out anymore, so let's all just pretend to agree with him.

Well, Union has spoken. Loku is unplayable. Anyone who has successfully used him is just wrong, they did not have fun and obviously should burn his cards so they don't have any mistaken fun with him in the future.

14 hours ago, Union said:

You have a team that is very hard to burst down in 1 round, at least once Onar gets his armor and Shyla gets her free evade. MHD-19 can take his bonus movement and his card to prevent a hero from being wounded if you're having this problem. But I'd suggest the real problem is you have Loku and you're simply not taking stuff off the board fast enough...

We're just finishing up another JR campaign and even using Indomitable on Bossk he's dying in a couple hits. That is the absolute best case scenario for that ability. The AVERAGE case for Loku's +1 damage is that it does 0 because it was overkill on a trooper. It doesn't trigger on cleaves, on blasts or on Vinto's bonus damage and you can't apply it to objectives. It's a horrible ability. I've played Loku through core, TS and Hoth and he's garbage.

I compared it to more than just that one ability. You're welcome to compare it to whatever you want, use Jynn's bonus attack, it's 2 strain... for an entire attack which you can get a surge to turn it into 1 strain and can trigger all her abilities off of and will do far more than a stupid +1 damage.

Compare it to Verena, 2 strain... get 1 back from surge... triggers all her combat abilities, does way more than 1 damage.

Biv 1 strain, reroll 1 die, average will be better than Loku's ability.

Saska 1 strain, give an on demand surge, better than Loku's ability, costs half as much. Has 8 tokens, not 2.

Diala 2 strain, remove that white die because no you can't dodge, better than Loku's ability.

Fenn 1 strain blast 1... FAR better than Loku's and the fact that you can make it blast 2 makes him busted.

Mak 1 strain pierce 2... half the cost of Loku's ability, often doing twice the damage.

Would you not say that he would be good as a fourth hero? you have mentioned many good heroes. a +1 for each of

heroes would be nice, wouldn't it?

ManateeX and Union: thank you for your input. I love to hear what every one has to say. I enjoyed reading all of your argument. I feel as though Union was speaking out of anger as if it were a republican vs. democrat in a presidential election. if Union had his way it might be "I'm right and your wrong!!!!!" person b would be like "No!!!!! I'm right and your wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" because more exclamation marks the better your argument. I like ManateeX's arguments a little better because he pointed out all the stuff. I would vote for him. Union you kind of went out of your way to put the facts as you see them. I would say "I beg you" in real life but that is not right on the internet. look at the other argument. this isn't politics. you are't going to lose the presidential election and have to go away because of it. The sad thing is, I usually like what you have to say. can you explain why you feel so passionate about this? without going into private life please.

Moral:

look at both sides, and listen to what they say. ManateeX you have done a better job at this but you didn't ask him why he feels this way, wouldn't that be a good idea?

Oh hey guys, there was a moral after all.

Anyway, ATM2100, I think you need only to look at Union's first post to see that he isn't so vehemently against you using Loku in your campaign- in fact, he even supplied a decent tactic, if you're so inclined. I think the discussion kinda morphed into a "Loku value" discussion in general, which isn't really the point of the thread you created. So, long story short... use Loku in your campaign if you want, he's real neat.

now why move on: we have Loku (of course) MHD, talos, and mak. straight list i want: 1-2-3-4 in order of worst in your mind to best for hoth

A straight power list is part of the problem. When I said Loku was brutal in Hoth it dosen't mean he personally took out heaps of troops. It means he really enhanced the ability of others. (he did his share of troop removal though)

1 Talos 2 Mak 3/4 toss-up MHD/Loku.

Talos and Mak sound good for troop removal Doc undoes the damage inflicted by imps and Loku gets a bead on high priority targets. Sounds like a fun team to try.

I'm not saying Loku is a bad character, nor a good one. His +2 accuracy kit is designed for sniping, yet his abilities are more of a support/utility in nature which don't impact the board immediately; they don't synergize together and that's where the problem lies. He will be outclasses by other damage dealers. He can always take the role of support/utility/insight-objective-runner but for the same reasons stated, he will be outclassed by other support heroes.

If i were to play him, i will definitely use him as utility/damage hybrid, a more aggressive MHD-19 in a way. His moment to shine is in early to mid campaign thanks to 1) his ability to pick up a crate for free (1xp Card) and 2) add extra damage to high hp units when the group doesn't have strong Tier 2 weapons yet. As stated many times earlier, the latter also helps with final boss missions.

I am honestly baffled that you are dismissing Union's argument so easily simply due to him being passionate. As he said, his hero sheet abilities are weaker than other heroes, 2 strain could be a masterstroke, quick draw or close quarters, dealing much more damage. +2 accuracy is solid until wounded, where a short ranged gun will suddenly be too short ranged. Compared to Lone Wolf, respite or Garkhaan's focus ability for example, this falls shorty every time. Loku has the worst tests in the game, sporting a single blue for both might and tech. Loku has no damage boosters, no blast, no pierce, no cleave and no way of making extra attacks. Yes, Loku will do dmg with a pulse cannon, but so will Gideon.

4 hours ago, Dark Reaper said:

I am honestly baffled that you are dismissing Union's argument so easily simply due to him being passionate. As he said, his hero sheet abilities are weaker than other heroes, 2 strain could be a masterstroke, quick draw or close quarters, dealing much more damage. +2 accuracy is solid until wounded, where a short ranged gun will suddenly be too short ranged. Compared to Lone Wolf, respite or Garkhaan's focus ability for example, this falls shorty every time. Loku has the worst tests in the game, sporting a single blue for both might and tech. Loku has no damage boosters, no blast, no pierce, no cleave and no way of making extra attacks. Yes, Loku will do dmg with a pulse cannon, but so will Gideon.

2 things, it looks like you are taking up where union left off. and it is true he has a bad sheet, and a bad deck, and it will be hard to use him, but he does have a use with mak. that is 2 strain for mak getting a crate and an extra action. and i have finally figured out the -2 health +1 endurance card or whatever it is.

Some things we all know: we know this is a bad team, and we also know that Loku is the worst, I don't think i'll switch him though.

8 minutes ago, ATM2100 said:

Some things we all know: we know this is a bad team

"We" don't know anything of the sort. It is not a bad team. I have seen a very similar team (Murne instead of Mak) win 10-1 in a Return to Hoth campaign. An all-melee team would be an objectively bad team for Return to Hoth (even worse than any of the other campaigns).

Loku also annoys royal guard in the way that they can't have protector on both

If you think Loku is objectively bad, maybe you just need to...

6 hours ago, Dark Reaper said:

I am honestly baffled that you are dismissing Union's argument so easily simply due to him being passionate. As he said, his hero sheet abilities are weaker than other heroes, 2 strain could be a masterstroke, quick draw or close quarters, dealing much more damage. +2 accuracy is solid until wounded, where a short ranged gun will suddenly be too short ranged. Compared to Lone Wolf, respite or Garkhaan's focus ability for example, this falls shorty every time. Loku has the worst tests in the game, sporting a single blue for both might and tech. Loku has no damage boosters, no blast, no pierce, no cleave and no way of making extra attacks. Yes, Loku will do dmg with a pulse cannon, but so will Gideon.

And I really feel like you're not reading (or at least addressing) what has been written in response to Union. Loku's tough to compare with other characters specifically because he doesn't really fit into a clean role like "support" or "damage". I guess I would say his role would be "damage, but often on other heroes' turns and over a longer period of time," which I admit doesn't really roll off the tongue .

In your comparisons it just really seems like you're looking at Loku's ability like it reads "spend two strain, get +1 damage on your next attack". But, again, this same two strain continues to apply to every attack until that figure is defeated. Sure if you use this on a regular stormtrooper you're not going to get your money's worth (there's that situational word that I keep using) but if you use it on something like Royal Guards, Elite Trandos, or a boss character/villain then it's going to be better than just about every one of those abilities you listed, especially early in the campaign.

If you're on your first side mission at threat level two and you come up against some elite royal guards or the RGC, Loku's recon token is going to be hands down better than a quick draw from Jynn's starting gun (if they even activate in such a way to make that possible - situational!) or some blue-green stormtrooper's attack triggered off of close quarters. Lone Wolf is one of the best starting abilities but it's also not really a comparison since it does something completely different. Garkhaan's focus die would be better if you can use it to trigger a timely cleave, but for straight damage against a single high-health target you're once again probably better off with the recon token (situational!). Mak's pierce-2 ability is superb, assuming you're going against black dice and that they roll blocks (and even then, if the figure isn't killed in a single attack then in 100% of cases you would have been just as well off or better with the recon token).

You've got me on Masterstroke, though. The best 4XP card in the game is hands down better than recon tokens in almost all situations .

Probably the biggest knock again Loku is that his abilities don't scale as well into the late game. Once everyone has weapons and abilities that can take down even big targets in one shot then his recon tokens become less useful. Unless, of course, you're facing a boss in the finale. Situational!

So no, I'm not just ignoring Union or dismissing him because he is passionate. There just really are a lot of cases where Loku can really push a team over the top. There are also a lot of cases where most other heroes would be a better choice. It's really all just - say it with me now - situational!

Question that I'm not 100% clear on, as it's been a bit since I've played with him: Can Loku stack recon tokens?

19 minutes ago, subtrendy said:

Question that I'm not 100% clear on, as it's been a bit since I've played with him: Can Loku stack recon tokens?

Nope, but since he's only got two that's rarely a problem in any case

3 hours ago, subtrendy said:

If you think Loku is objectively bad, maybe you just need to...

what does this mean?

this doesn't address the question i asked which is:

19 hours ago, ATM2100 said:

now why move on: we have Loku (of course) MHD, talos, and mak. straight list i want: 1-2-3-4 in order of worst in your mind to best for hoth

I want this answered.

17 minutes ago, ATM2100 said:

what does this mean?

this doesn't address the question i asked which is:

I want this answered.

Wasn't directed at you. If you want that question answered, @juice man answered it pretty well.

Basically, here's how I see that team:

Mak- Single Target large damage

Verena: Multi-target, spread damage

MH-D: Damage mitigation

Loku: Single target damage

So basically, You'll probably want Verena in the thick of things taking down troopers, while Mak focuses on larger targets (vehicles, bosses, creatures). Loku can use Set Your Sights to help Mak on the larger targets, while also running objectives (he's fast, and has good observation stats). MH-D can focus on healing, while running mechanical tests. Of course, Loku and the droid are also capable in combat.

Since a lot of the team relies on synergy (seriously, I think that the Mak/Loku combination could work out well) I'd say ratings based on individual prowess are not really that valuable.

4 hours ago, subtrendy said:

Question that I'm not 100% clear on, as it's been a bit since I've played with him: Can Loku stack recon tokens?

You only get +1dmg from Set Your Sights regardless of how many recon tokens the target figure has. But, if Loku wins his reward card, he can get additional +1dmg from a recon token of an adjacent figure.

The best part (I think as the imperial player) is still Combat Spotter allowing to ignore figures when drawing line of sight to a figure with a recon token. When one well-placed figure (call one figure "wall of bodies" if you wish) would prevent an attack before, taking an extra action from the rebels to get to their objective - with Combat Spotter the rebels can go straight for the kill. Less rounds means less imperial troops to worry about too.

Have MHD-19 too and you have negated about two rounds worth of attacks.

Note that if you have high single-target output, the imperial player should be spamming cheap figures - it still takes an action to defeat a figure.

7 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Note that if you have high single-target output, the imperial player should be spamming cheap figures - it still takes an action to defeat a figure.

True, but Verena works pretty well as a multi-target damage output. Maybe not Fenn or Vinto-tier, but she can still get creative with additional attacks.

20 hours ago, subtrendy said:

True, but Verena works pretty well as a multi-target damage output. Maybe not Fenn or Vinto-tier, but she can still get creative with additional attacks.

Yeah, I've had Gideon command her twice, trigger her close combat twice killing 4 things, then rested on her turn and killed 3 more. She is realistically the most destructive hero with both an extra attack ability and an unrestricted number of bonus attacks that cost strain. Seriously she can Combat Mastery + Close Quarters + Close Quarters and get 4 attacks off for 1 action and 1 strain, and still be able to potentially Close Quarters for 3 more free attacks (if she can trigger it) before having to rest or recover strain somehow.

Although Fenn is much easier to use and because of the deployment rules and heroes getting first action, in practice, he's better.

On 2017-05-17 at 2:51 AM, Dark Reaper said:

I am honestly baffled that you are dismissing Union's argument so easily simply due to him being passionate.

I would have said accurate, supported and backed up by 3 campaigns worth of actual play, but okay, passionate works I guess, lol.

1 hour ago, Union said:

I would have said accurate, supported and backed up by 3 campaigns worth of actual play, but okay, passionate works I guess, lol.

1 hour ago, Union said:

Yeah, I've had Gideon command her twice, trigger her close combat twice killing 4 things, then rested on her turn and killed 3 more. She is realistically the most destructive hero with both an extra attack ability and an unrestricted number of bonus attacks that cost strain. Seriously she can Combat Mastery + Close Quarters + Close Quarters and get 4 attacks off for 1 action and 1 strain, and still be able to potentially Close Quarters for 3 more free attacks (if she can trigger it) before having to rest or recover strain somehow.

Although Fenn is much easier to use and because of the deployment rules and heroes getting first action, in practice, he's better.

if you have 2 posts right next to each other, can't you just edit the first one?

2 hours ago, Union said:

I would have said accurate, supported and backed up by 3 campaigns worth of actual play, but okay, passionate works I guess, lol.

Yeah, I didn't mean to diminish your point. I agree that you point out Loku's weaknesses in a very accurate way.

I think my main problem with the arguments for Loku is that some of them seem good, like the fact that recon token is +1dmg for every attack or that Combat Spotter lets you shoot through this big screen of enemies. In practice, few units take more than 1, and certainly not more than 2 shots to get rid off, although I guess if someone deploys an AT-ST the Recon Token could prove more valuable, but then you are playing a different game than I. The same with the screen; if you aren't a very good player and spend actions in an inefficient manner, I could see why these screens would appear, but with good damage dealing heroes, there often aren't that many Imperials on the board. Use Loku if you want to, I just disagree with the fact that he is a useful hero and I think I have stated why. He doesn't scale well at all, in addition to not having any damage boosters. He can give Mak an extra attack through the crate trick you were talking about, but it will never be as effective as Gideon giving him two. He can shoot something, but it will never be as effective as a good hero doing it. You often don't have that much money, so a good weapon on a bad hero is not a good way to play the game.

On 2017-05-16 at 0:30 PM, juice man said:

Well, Union has spoken. Loku is unplayable. Anyone who has successfully used him is just wrong, they did not have fun and obviously should burn his cards so they don't have any mistaken fun with him in the future.

These kids are having fun. Telling them they could have more fun playing Imperial Assault would be wrong.