Ffg has danced around the idea of having a ship have 4 agility, but so far has not committed to this. There are many ships in the canon that could justifiably roll 4 defense dice.
Do you think there is a place for such a ship in this game?
What ship (old or new) do you think should have 4 agility?
Do you think having a 3 attack 4 agility ship would be too much?
I think the (cloaked) Tie Phantom should have 4 agility dice, because, ya know, it is cloaked and all.....
I don't think any other ships need to have 4 agility
and yes, i think having other 4 agility ships would be too much - It would lead to power creep of a different type. Right now, the Phantom can be blocked, stressed, denied shots etc. to negate the potential effect of 4 green dice. It can still do a lot of damage to 2 die ships without receiving any damage in return.
Four green dice can be kinda NPE...either they fail, and you get salty, or they don't fail, and your opponent gets salty. It could work, but I'm pretty happy with 3 as the max.
My biggest wish is that FFG releases the new version of A-wing from The Last Jedi with 4 AGI. I usually run SD on my A-wings and I would love to have Autothrusters on my four dice, but that probably won't happen since Interceptors basically has that already with SD+AT.
I'd say it's doable with a few rules.
No evade or boost action.
4 hit points max. 3 is probably better.
They'd still all come up blank though...
A natural 4 agility ship will only increase the already over-abundant red dice power creep and would be the nail in the coffin for swarms(2 red dice ships) So I think it would be a really bad idea.
4 hours ago, churchwarden said:I think the (cloaked) Tie Phantom should have 4 agility dice, because, ya know, it is cloaked and all....
This is the 4-dice ship, hopefully the only one.
4 hours ago, Ailowynn said:Four green dice can be kinda NPE...either they fail, and you get salty, or they don't fail, and your opponent gets salty. It could work, but I'm pretty happy with 3 as the max.
This.
Remember all the Phantom salt?!?
1 hour ago, JJFDVORAK said:A natural 4 agility ship will only increase the already over-abundant red dice power creep and would be the nail in the coffin for swarms(2 red dice ships) So I think it would be a really bad idea.
This too.
Power creep is baaaaaaad enough now.
We've actually been playing pre-nerf Phantoms against the new hotness and it does very well, but in no way OP as it was. It's my hope one day I'll be able to run her in a squad at a tourney and play her old-school....that time's getting closer I feel.
5 hours ago, churchwarden said:I think the (cloaked) Tie Phantom should have 4 agility dice, because, ya know, it is cloaked and all.....
It does have 4 agility while cloaked - 2 natural plus 2 when cloaked
If the Eta-2 is ever introduced maybe that could have 4 agility.
Interceptors definitely deserve 4 agility. Might help differentiate them and make them more competitive. Plus it fits the fluff.
2 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:Interceptors definitely deserve 4 agility. Might help differentiate them and make them more competitive. Plus it fits the fluff.
I'm not sure about this. Sure it would be tougher for regular shots to penetrate their defenses, but honeslty they don't need help blocking shots, it's the auto damage that is popular now, like Sabine, and cluster mines that make it really tough for them. Personally I don't think 4 agility would help them out so much
1 hour ago, Sasajak said:It does have 4 agility while cloaked - 2 natural plus 2 when cloaked
If the Eta-2 is ever introduced maybe that could have 4 agility.
I was being sarcastic...
The only ship that should have 4 agility is the eta-2, in my opinion, but that should have evade as well.
1 hour ago, gryffindorhouse said:The only ship that should have 4 agility is the eta-2, in my opinion, but that should have evade as well.
I think the Delta-7 earns it as well. I had a mechanical idea for how their rapid-fire attacks could be imitated in the game. Basically, they have a primary weapon value of 1, and make 3 primary weapon attacks - deadly at range 1, useless anywhere else. 4 agility ships need Boost + Barrel roll. They also need a hull value of 2-4, because otherwise they're ridiculous tanks. Dial should be phenomenal (I'm thinking YT-2400 with green 2-turns).
Adding such a ship to the meta could be really useful, since they're weak against the less popular high agility ships, and strong against heavy-hitters (Fenn Rau - shush).
Talonbane Cobra, cloaked, range 3, obstructed. 8 green dice.
Still blanks out.
20 minutes ago, balindamood said:Talonbane Cobra, cloaked, range 3, obstructed. 8 green dice.
Still blanks out.
and rolls eyeball in the end phase
Well when you come and think of it. 3 agility is sort of the 4 when compared to Firepower.
However you sort of want firepower to overwhelm agility so as to keep the game from being drawn out too long thus getting the tank meta where all swiss rounds go to time. Hence why 3 blanks on a green die and red die only has 2 blanks.
So you want 4 agility, well either we see 0 firepower (senators shuttle doesn't count) which would be a terrible ship consideration the HWK-290, or a 5 firepower ship.
Edited by Marinealver4 hours ago, gryffindorhouse said:The only ship that should have 4 agility is the eta-2, in my opinion, but that should have evade as well.
Agility 4 with evade? So we're talking 4HP and either 2 attack or it costs 45 points base. Because otherwise it's outright bananas.
2 hours ago, Astech said:4 agility ships need Boost + Barrel roll. They also need a hull value of 2-4, because otherwise they're ridiculous tanks. Dial should be phenomenal (I'm thinking YT-2400 with green 2-turns).
Wait, what? Your agility 4 super-fighter also needs both multiple arc dodging abilities, access to Autothrusters, and a dial that essentially allows you to spam PTL into oblivion and stack tokens harder than Soontir in Vegas? Where exactly are the drawbacks to fielding this that cause balance? I see what you're saying about the weapon, but that seems too convoluted, and FFG have repeatedly said that giving any ship Atk1 was a mistake, so you're looking at minimum Atk2.
Agility 4 should only be available through extraordinary means. Cloak is a good example. The Phantom gets Agility 4 only when cloaked, and pays extra for an upgrade that makes recloaking easier. There's a risk/reward that balances the agility and firepower by having weaknesses in the frame (2S/2H), and being expensive at a base line. This is the definition of a glass cannon.
A natural Agility 4 ship needs to have some
serious
drawbacks to justify itself, for several reasons; the primary reason being that it's trying to answer the problem of red dice creep by putting out the fire using kerosene and napalm. A 4 agility ship needs to be costed either crazy (read, close to prohibitively) high, have awful firepower/HP, or have massive penalties elsewhere (dial/action bar/upgrades).
11 hours ago, churchwarden said:I was being sarcastic...
My /s detector is now being replaced
2 hours ago, Sasajak said:My /s detector is now being replaced
Uncle Owen! This Sasajak unit's got a bad /s detector!
TIE Avenger
7 hours ago, NakedDex said:Wait, what? Your agility 4 super-fighter also needs both multiple arc dodging abilities, access to Autothrusters , and a dial that essentially allows you to spam PTL into oblivion and stack tokens harder than Soontir in Vegas? Where exactly are the drawbacks to fielding this that cause balance? I see what you're saying about the weapon, but that seems too convoluted, and FFG have repeatedly said that giving any ship Atk1 was a mistake, so you're looking at minimum Atk2.
Agility 4 should only be available through extraordinary means. Cloak is a good example. The Phantom gets Agility 4 only when cloaked, and pays extra for an upgrade that makes recloaking easier. There's a risk/reward that balances the agility and firepower by having weaknesses in the frame (2S/2H), and being expensive at a base line. This is the definition of a glass cannon.
A natural Agility 4 ship needs to have some serious drawbacks to justify itself, for several reasons; the primary reason being that it's trying to answer the problem of red dice creep by putting out the fire using kerosene and napalm. A 4 agility ship needs to be costed either crazy (read, close to prohibitively) high, have awful firepower/HP, or have massive penalties elsewhere (dial/action bar/upgrades).
Firstly, assume that it's hull value is 2-4. I think everyone is happy with that.
AGI 3 ships can very easily melt to combined fire, especially when blocked. This applies doubly to the no doubt more expensive AGI 4 frame. Hence, a good dial is essential (or SLAM, but that's out for obvious reasons), otherwise your ace is going to be predictable as all heck. Token stacking isn't my concern - in my mind AGI 4 isn't a scum thing, and Rebels/Imperials have their own problems with token stacking outside of PTL. PTL itself is inherrently limited, as we all know, so a Defender-like ace isn't that scary here.
Atk 1 was only garbage because it was a single attack on a truly terrible frame. Imagine the power of a triplet of attacks on a Decimator - it's basically a 3-burst TLT. It also discourages large base ships (besides Brobots). If it's really horrible, sub it in for a double-tap title and a primary of 2 and you achieve the same goal - a super agile ace with firepower issues. Costed in the mid-thirties with upgrades it would be reasonable.
I think the drawback should be something along the lines of a clause in the title saying "you may not equip upgrade cards costing 3 or more squad points". So no PTL or stealth devices.
Honestly, if I was to make a ship with 4 AGI, it'd be something like the Hapan Mytil fighters - which are incredibly tiny (I think they're like 8m long) and would be incredibly fragile, like 2-3 HP, and only one of those is hull. An actual agility value of 4+ should be a result of special abilities and circumstances (I/E you need to make a tactical or strategic decision) or it should just ALWAYS be a gamble that you will eventually lose out on. And you'd have to be careful about ability to stack in defensive mods on top.
ETA-2 is small enough and agile enough.