Right now I am thinking the most likely area where we will see errata is in the interaction between Ambush, Rey and cards like Force Speed as right now you can chain them and get crazy numbers of consecutive actions that make the game not fun to play. I'm not faulting FFG on this - with this number of cards in the game some interactions that need revision were inevitable.

My guesses at errata we may see:

- Force Speed Special may be restricted so it cannot be resolved the same player turn the die face is exposed.

Just thoughts.

Maybe. It's pretty clear that FFG are okay with the current interactions with 'bonus action' cards - it's not like it's some obscure idea that 'Hey, maybe I should play upgrades that give me bonus actions on Rey'.

The real question is whether they end up unbalancing the game, or otherwise hurting it. While many people don't like it, that doesn't neccasarily mean they are broken.

I've seen it suggested before, and I'd say the easiest option is just adding 'non ambush' to Rey's ability so that she can't get double actions out of it. That's what really starts the crazy stuff happening.

37 minutes ago, Abyss said:

Maybe. It's pretty clear that FFG are okay with the current interactions with 'bonus action' cards - it's not like it's some obscure idea that 'Hey, maybe I should play upgrades that give me bonus actions on Rey'.

The real question is whether they end up unbalancing the game, or otherwise hurting it. While many people don't like it, that doesn't neccasarily mean they are broken.

I've seen it suggested before, and I'd say the easiest option is just adding 'non ambush' to Rey's ability so that she can't get double actions out of it. That's what really starts the crazy stuff happening.

I agree, not fun is not necessary broken.

I could see in future expansion FFG coming out with a cheap cost card that limits opponents to 1 or 2 action per turn.

They better not nerf stuff, or I'm out.

I bought several boxes so that I could collect my two Force Speeds, and yes they're good, but they also fill up an upgrade slot on the characters and don't really do any damage or anything. Don't get me wrong, taking several actions is nice, but it's not somehow "new" or "overpowered." Leia/Ackbar was doing that from the start with Hit and Run and All In.

Sorry, but it's threads like this that ruin a forum. What happens is that people complain about one or two specific things (like Force Speed), and then FFG caves in and nerfs it, and then everyone on the forum thinks that they did that, and fills the entire forum with complaints about various other cards in the game.

I really don't want this game to devolve into one of those games where there's a huge list of errata that I have to keep track of. It's just annoying. Some cards will be a little better than others, some combos will work better than others. That's really part of any game.

Plus, I felt really happy when I pulled my second Force Speed. I really don't want it to become some worthless pile of garbage that I don't even want to play because the text on the card is considered a "misprint."

Action stacking isn't inherently advantageous. Just like action economy isn't just taking more actions than your opponent. You must get a tangible benefit from the extra actions because you have probably just ceded the majority of the rest of the turn to your opponent.

I have frequently seen people string together multiple actions and gain nothing or virtually nothing. I've done it myself. It is important to remember it's the value you get from your actions compared to your opponent not the number of actions you get that decide games.

Stacking actions gives you an opportunity to gain advantage over your opponent not a guarantee. However, you have also taken a risk. If you fail to capitalize on your extra actions you've given your opponent the opportunity to have a better turn than you because he has full knowledge of what you will do that turn.

2 hours ago, Kieransi said:

They better not nerf stuff, or I'm out.

I bought several boxes so that I could collect my two Force Speeds, and yes they're good, but they also fill up an upgrade slot on the characters and don't really do any damage or anything. Don't get me wrong, taking several actions is nice, but it's not somehow "new" or "overpowered." Leia/Ackbar was doing that from the start with Hit and Run and All In.

Sorry, but it's threads like this that ruin a forum. What happens is that people complain about one or two specific things (like Force Speed), and then FFG caves in and nerfs it, and then everyone on the forum thinks that they did that, and fills the entire forum with complaints about various other cards in the game.

I really don't want this game to devolve into one of those games where there's a huge list of errata that I have to keep track of. It's just annoying. Some cards will be a little better than others, some combos will work better than others. That's really part of any game.

Plus, I felt really happy when I pulled my second Force Speed. I really don't want it to become some worthless pile of garbage that I don't even want to play because the text on the card is considered a "misprint."

There is a BIG difference between Hit and Run or All In and Force Speed. The first two are Events which means you have to have them in hand and play them. Force Speed is an Ability so once installed it is there. It gets even worse if you have Fast Hands or alternately put the Force Speed on a character like Maz. I'm sorry but the chain actions frequently enable stuff like killing an opposing Character before they can even roll it out or use it once. That makes things very un-fun.

Now it is true that you have to get the cards in hand to do it. But when you consider that's you can put two Force Speed in your deck and can Mulligan your opening draw your odds are pretty high on being able to install it right out of the box.

15 hours ago, Kieransi said:

They better not nerf stuff, or I'm out.

I bought several boxes so that I could collect my two Force Speeds, and yes they're good, but they also fill up an upgrade slot on the characters and don't really do any damage or anything. Don't get me wrong, taking several actions is nice, but it's not somehow "new" or "overpowered." Leia/Ackbar was doing that from the start with Hit and Run and All In.

Sorry, but it's threads like this that ruin a forum. What happens is that people complain about one or two specific things (like Force Speed), and then FFG caves in and nerfs it, and then everyone on the forum thinks that they did that, and fills the entire forum with complaints about various other cards in the game.

I really don't want this game to devolve into one of those games where there's a huge list of errata that I have to keep track of. It's just annoying. Some cards will be a little better than others, some combos will work better than others. That's really part of any game.

Plus, I felt really happy when I pulled my second Force Speed. I really don't want it to become some worthless pile of garbage that I don't even want to play because the text on the card is considered a "misprint."

I am for just banning cards, it a lot less confusing to new players

16 hours ago, Joelist said:

There is a BIG difference between Hit and Run or All In and Force Speed. The first two are Events which means you have to have them in hand and play them. Force Speed is an Ability so once installed it is there. It gets even worse if you have Fast Hands or alternately put the Force Speed on a character like Maz. I'm sorry but the chain actions frequently enable stuff like killing an opposing Character before they can even roll it out or use it once. That makes things very un-fun.

Now it is true that you have to get the cards in hand to do it. But when you consider that's you can put two Force Speed in your deck and can Mulligan your opening draw your odds are pretty high on being able to install it right out of the box.

This involves a fair amount of 'best case scenario' rolls and situations (like getting Force Speed on Maz).

Yes, Force Speed accelerates your actions. But unless you're actually getting some benefit out of it, that doesn't really matter. There are times when it will get a big benefit like killing a character you couldn't have killed, but that's hardly unique to FS. You generally have to have a lot of other support/combo cards to get those big benefits.

The only time it's really silly right now is when it involves Rey - and that's an issue with her interactions with Ambush. So, just errata her. The other option would be to implement an 'action cap' - you can gain a max of two additional actions in any one window. That would limit any future 'action chain' shenanigans.

41 minutes ago, Abyss said:

This involves a fair amount of 'best case scenario' rolls and situations (like getting Force Speed on Maz).

Yes, Force Speed accelerates your actions. But unless you're actually getting some benefit out of it, that doesn't really matter. There are times when it will get a big benefit like killing a character you couldn't have killed, but that's hardly unique to FS. You generally have to have a lot of other support/combo cards to get those big benefits.

The only time it's really silly right now is when it involves Rey - and that's an issue with her interactions with Ambush. So, just errata her. The other option would be to implement an 'action cap' - you can gain a max of two additional actions in any one window. That would limit any future 'action chain' shenanigans.

The limitations I wrote about in my above post apply to Rey too. All players have the option to focus down the most dangerous character first. If you deem that character to be Rey, she is still fairly easy to remove.

Action stacking, just like Jango's ability have been in the game from the beginning. Players have been and still are forced to adapt their play style's around these abilities. That is not to say they are alone in this aspect, only that players have to open their minds to the ways to play against them or risk not finding them.

Force Speed and Fast Hands are both good cards from SoR, I don't want anyone to think I'm implying otherwise. However, especially with Force Speed, ever since it was spoiled there has been a sense of doom about it but in the community that is unwarranted. It is easily the most overrated SoR card to date.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to diminish the feelings of people who don't like playing against Rey and Force Speed. That is a totally valid personal preference. There are things I don't like playing against too, I understand how you feel.

You take an action I take one is what got a large amount of people into this game. Now thay are saying, Just Kidding! So people can argue if it's broken or not, but it breaks the as advertised game part . That in itself destroyed peoples faith in this game. Planetary uprising end imperial inspection should of been unique

14 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

You take an action I take one is what got a large amount of people into this game. Now thay are saying, Just Kidding! So people can argue if it's broken or not, but it breaks the as advertised game part . That in itself destroyed peoples faith in this game. Planetary uprising end imperial inspection should of been unique

Like I said, action stacking has been apart of the game since day 1. You don't have to like it and that's ok, but let's at least accept that it's not new to SoR.

Since the begining of CCG's cards have broken the fundamental rules of the game. That is a large part of what keeps them popular. For example, the very first set of MtG contain Mox and Black Lotus to accelerate mana production bending/breaking the play one resource per round rule.

It is way too early to say PU and II should have been unique. However, time and further testing could prove you right.

2 hours ago, Starbane said:

Like I said, action stacking has been apart of the game since day 1. You don't have to like it and that's ok, but let's at least accept that it's not new to SoR.

Since the begining of CCG's cards have broken the fundamental rules of the game. That is a large part of what keeps them popular. For example, the very first set of MtG contain Mox and Black Lotus to accelerate mana production bending/breaking the play one resource per round rule.

It is way too early to say PU and II should have been unique. However, time and further testing could prove you right.

I 100% agree with this!

Action stacking, mill, other "unfun" strategies are all part of the game, and they've been there since day one. The game never actually advertised "this is a fun Star Wars themed game where your opponent is guaranteed to do one, short action and then you get one short action and if your opponent gets more than one action you get to yell 'no fairsies!' and throw a tantrum." Ambush cards, All In, Rey, etc. were all part of the game earlier.

Honestly, action stacking alone doesn't break the game. I've played a number of action-stacking decks, and all that it guarantees is that my dice get resolved quickly and I get to claim the battlefield. There is still no action stack more damaging than Leia/Ackbar with Hit and Run, It's a Trap, and All In, which are all Awakenings cards.

And show me where the Black Lotus in this game is. Both gameplay-wise and secondhand market-wise. Are Force Speeds selling for $15,000 on eBay?

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

And show me where the Black Lotus in this game is. Both gameplay-wise and secondhand market-wise. Are Force Speeds selling for $15,000 on eBay?

You can't compare a 6 month old games price tag to a game thats 24 years old and something that had a lower print run.

~D

9 hours ago, Starbane said:

Like I said, action stacking has been apart of the game since day 1. You don't have to like it and that's ok, but let's at least accept that it's not new to SoR.

Since the begining of CCG's cards have broken the fundamental rules of the game. That is a large part of what keeps them popular. For example, the very first set of MtG contain Mox and Black Lotus to accelerate mana production bending/breaking the play one resource per round rule.

It is way too early to say PU and II should have been unique. However, time and further testing could prove you right.

We have been testing and I have a very fun Krennic, Bala deck that I even feel bad about all the support cards effectively take the other players turn away. I haven't even started in on the planetary uprisings.

Until you play against Vader with fast hands and Force Speed, you can't have an honest opinion on action stacking.

I don't think it's a fundamental problem to allow 'action stacking' in the game. As someone who loves control decks, yeah, it's really annoying to play around.

But I just feel like there's enough design space for the answers to catch up with the offense.

Better targeted removal of cheap upgrades and support should eventually be part of the card pool. We are exactly one expansion into a brand new game.

There is a key concept some people may not understand.

Not fun is a broken game.

look what happened to Net Runner.

35 minutes ago, TylerTT said:

There is a key concept some people may not understand.

Not fun is a broken game.

look what happened to Net Runner.

Define 'not fun'.

I played eJabba/Vader mill deck at an Awakenings event. The first two players ****ed about how they didn't like playing that kind of deck (I think one complained about the mill, and the other more about the control and the fact I didn't just let him hit me). This wasn't a particularly good deck, it wasn't even a particularly hard control deck, yet I'm sure those players would have said it was 'not fun'. So do you get rid of all mill decks? All control decks? All 'crazy spike damage' decks? All combo decks? All mindless aggro decks? Where do you draw the line when everyone has their own definition of what makes the game fun?

4 minutes ago, Abyss said:

Where do you draw the line when everyone has their own definition of what makes the game fun?

This is the internet, the most common definition of fun is "I win!" or "You lose!" anything else falls into the definition of un-fun and should be errata or banned now for the sake of the game.

as a game designer I would say not fun is when a clearly dominate strategy is not enjoyed by a majority of players but people still use it because it's a winning strategy. Is this the case right now with destiny? too soon to call? i'm not up enough on the meta to know personally.

there is not nearly enough big tourneys to say anything is broken atm

I'm not saying anything is broken. I like and supported this game threw it's dry spell. I think it's important to share concerns without screaming that the shy is falling. It shows where possible problems could arise in the future.

I want to add my voice.

ABSOLUTELY this game needs some ERRATA FAST. And I don't believe game designers should EVER weigh in comments like "but I payed $200 to get two force speeds and all that". They need to do what is healthy. Over in xwing land I am sad to notice that FFG took WAY TOO LONG to nerf palpatine. It single handedly made me LEAVE THAT GAME.

Rey must be errata'ed. I agree it is as simple as "card gains Ambush" (so cards that have it, don't get 2x). No whining here... you still get plenty of fun combos. PLENTY.

I regret that force speed/fast hands type of shenaniganry exist, but those don't need errata, per-se.

The Ammo Belt... how can they name it like that and let it be used for things like Second Chance! Errata to be "weapon only".

Speaking of Second Chance... it's called SECOND CHANCE not ANOTHER CHANCE. It should be REMOVE FROM GAME.

Some of the new supports I am also really disliking, and am sad to not see them be unique (the one where you lose a die because other played rolled discard say) but that's not up there in errata land; just throwing that out there.

Overall, as a casual player I want to go on record I am NOT happy to see how SoR has exploded power/speed/you-dont-get-to-respond-to-my-plays. Boo FFG design on this one.

To close, people saying "we shouldn't have threads like this on forums", AU CONTRAIRE. As we all know, forums are for people to complain. We complain about stuff we don't LIKE (not saying that is objective, but the mission of a game is also be fun, that is to be liked). Nobody is posting "OMG the art on Chewbacca is horrible" over and over. Yet we see repeatedly calls for reviewing some cards...

If anyone is interested on the Knights of Ren Podcast for Day 4 of worlds they have an interview which goes, quite heavily into the whole reasoning of action chaining.

The TLDL is that they think they need it in the game in some form as without it control becomes really dominant but they undercosted it for sets 1&2 (which even set 2 was finished and at the printers by the time set 1 was launching) he specifically mentions Rey as being too cheap to do what she does. They think good action chaining is more along the lines of tactical mastery.

As to the unfun aspect, i found Jango Veers to be unfun, sometimes they just rolled like 9-10 damage and blew up a character with you being able to do nothing about it. Other times they get a shield a resource a melee and a plus 2 ranged. People to my knowlegde havent been crying nerf (and shouldn't be) but alot of the popular decks seem to be lets just put as many of the same damage die faces into our pool and hope it comes up good. No fun, no finese. I wouldn't however say that the designers failed because its "unfun" to me and maybe me alone

1 hour ago, isthar said:

I want to add my voice.

ABSOLUTELY this game needs some ERRATA FAST. And I don't believe game designers should EVER weigh in comments like "but I payed $200 to get two force speeds and all that". They need to do what is healthy. Over in xwing land I am sad to notice that FFG took WAY TOO LONG to nerf palpatine. It single handedly made me LEAVE THAT GAME.

Rey must be errata'ed. I agree it is as simple as "card gains Ambush" (so cards that have it, don't get 2x). No whining here... you still get plenty of fun combos. PLENTY.

I regret that force speed/fast hands type of shenaniganry exist, but those don't need errata, per-se.

The Ammo Belt... how can they name it like that and let it be used for things like Second Chance! Errata to be "weapon only".

Speaking of Second Chance... it's called SECOND CHANCE not ANOTHER CHANCE. It should be REMOVE FROM GAME.

Some of the new supports I am also really disliking, and am sad to not see them be unique (the one where you lose a die because other played rolled discard say) but that's not up there in errata land; just throwing that out there.

Overall, as a casual player I want to go on record I am NOT happy to see how SoR has exploded power/speed/you-dont-get-to-respond-to-my-plays. Boo FFG design on this one.

To close, people saying "we shouldn't have threads like this on forums", AU CONTRAIRE. As we all know, forums are for people to complain. We complain about stuff we don't LIKE (not saying that is objective, but the mission of a game is also be fun, that is to be liked). Nobody is posting "OMG the art on Chewbacca is horrible" over and over. Yet we see repeatedly calls for reviewing some cards...

So, here's the problem with this line of thinking. X-Wing had Palpatine. Palpatine won. But that's not the whole story.

Deck building is a LOT more restrictive in X-Wing, so when Palpatine was too powerful, it also meant that the game was only ever played by Lambda-class shuttles and TIE Advanced, Interceptors, or Defenders in the typical "Palp Aces" build, since there was no other place to fit him in a fleet.

Here, we've got AT MOST six places to stick an upgrade. Yellow heroes have the "REMOVE FROM GAME" Second Chance and Ammo Belt, blue heroes have Rey and Force Speed, red heroes have the "new supports I am also disliking", such as Planetary Uprising, red villains have Imperial Inspection, blue villains have Force Speed as well (and can put it to better use with cheap, damaging characters), and yellow villains have access to Fast Hands and some of the nastiest events in the game.

So what I'm saying is that no matter what deck you build, you can still stick any of the "ERRATA FAST" cards in there. It doesn't matter what characters you run, any single one of those characters will give your deck access to something on Isthar's extensive ban list.

FFG doesn't errata stuff because some cards are a bit more powerful than others. That's part of any game. Have you ever payed a poor tax in Monopoly or been flattened by somebody drawing a sorry card in the game Sorry? FFG only errata's stuff for two reasons:

1.) the card is leading to one specific deck taking over the meta

2.) the card is being used in a nasty way unforeseen by the designers

Honestly, reason 1 is unlikely to happen in this game because they can just release new cards to balance the game if one specific faction takes over. It is possible for one faction to take over, but it's not possible for this game to have a specific, spelled-out list that everyone flies, like Palp Aces.

Reason 2 just doesn't apply here. The designers obviously saw the Rey/Ambush combo and approved of it, otherwise they never would've made a Vibroknife card. Think about it: if there's a character that's a tiny bit more powerful than some of the others, isn't it nice for newcomers to the game that she's the hero of the new movies and comes in a readily-accessible core set? Kind of evens the playing field, in my opinion.

You've got all your erratas. There were exactly two combos that the designers didn't expect between the 334 cards in this game, and they took care of them. Don't expect more errata until a new wave is released, and don't expect it to radically change the way the game's worked since day one.