I recently submitted a question to the devs about the fearsome talent and how it relates to minions. One would think that minions are more prone to fear than a rival would be, however the maths behind it doesnt support it.

Two examples where a PC with 5 ranks of fearsome face off against two different groups of 6 NPCs , both have 2 willpower and no ranks in discipline making the check 5 purple vs 2 green for the fear check. For the purpose of this Im going to assume an average result rolled each time for 3 failure and 1 threat. The only difference is that the first group of 6 is a group of 6 rivals or nemesis, the other is a group of 6 minions. With this average result they are all feared and now suffer a setback on all their rolls, but the threat means that they also suffer strain equal to thr number of failure rolled, so in this case three for each roll.

so in example 1 each rival or nemesis gets 3 damage each for a total of 18 strain, not too shabby , but 5 fearsome is a lot of xp to get and im being on the generous side with 3 but it is somewhere between 2 and 3 , also not every roll will have threat but it does give an idea what you may get on average

Moving to the minion group you roll against the group (devs answwr and it makes sense froma KISS standpoint,however in this case the minions get 3 dmg total.

Im not complaining but throwing it out there for discussion to see what you guys think that 6 minions are better than 6 rivals when it comes to fear.

The six rivals and or nemeses may take more strain damage , but they are also going to get six attacks in return , so they're going to hand out a hell of a lot more damage than the minions will. Fearsome may impact rivals and nemeses more but six of them are likely going to turn the lone PC into a greasy spot .

Plus there is no rule that says you have to group minions together either on the attack or on the defense. You can as the GM decide it's more appropriate to have that fearsome check impact each minion individually and apply it across the board if you feel so .

1 minute ago, 2P51 said:

The six rivals and or nemeses may take more strain damage , but they are also going to get six attacks in return , so they're going to hand out a hell of a lot more damage than the minions will. Fearsome may impact rivals and nemeses more but six of them are likely going to turn the lone PC into a greasy spot .

Plus there is no rule that says you have to group minions together either on the attack or on the defense. You can as the GM decide it's more appropriate to have that fearsome check impact each minion individually and apply it across the board if you feel so .

Ultimately this was the question I posed to the devs and they replied you only get one check against fhe minion group and if I wanted to rationalise it that there is strength in numbers. So the dev response is that there is only one roll for fear for the minion group. From a KISS standpoint it makes sense, and from the minion rules it makes sense also, the results of it do not though 6 rivals are also going to have the same strength in numbers.

It juat goes to show though that some things work much better against minions, like grenades, whereas others may work better against rivals. A collective 18 dmg against a group of 6 rivals that had 10 WT , have collectively had 1/3 of there wounds scared off them so enough to wipe out nearly 2 of them, the minion group who had half the WT would have only lost 1/10th, enough to wipe out , ehhh, none of them.

This is also worthwhile knowing as a player , esp those with morality who may well be etting 2 conflict each time they use the ability.

You only get one check against the minion group IF you've grouped them. There's no rule that says you have to group them. In fact the rule is you may use them as individuals or grouped. So the answer the Devs gave you to your question is correct, the way you phrased the question.

7 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

You only get one check against the minion group IF you've grouped them. There's no rule that says you have to group them. In fact the rule is you may use them as individuals or grouped. So the answer the Devs gave you to your question is correct, the way you phrased the question.

Since they are all engaged they would generally be grouped from a combat standpoint since they are all engaged with the player. I realise the GM can ungroup them or if they so choose roll for each one, I actually agree with the devs here even though the result it can throw up is anomalous. Why would you want to slow the game down with 6 rolls. You can also say that those 6 minions are a better shot as a group than any one rival, however the anomaly is that it works significantly better against rivals, so be it.

Who's slowing anything down? I'm simply pointing out that there's absolutely no structure or rule in regards to when minions are grouped or ungrouped . I'm also pointing out that this is a flaw in rules and it makes more sense to simply ignore something that doesn't make sense and apply the damage equally to each minion like you would a rival. In fact the rules as written point out any rule that doesn't make sense or is causing problems at the table is a rule that should be ignored .

There is no rule that says you can't do that in the middle of a turn and simply apply the damage individually to the minions, and then have them attack on a single attack role as a group. I'm not limiting myself to when I can group or ungroup minions rigidly, I'm going to do that as it benefits the players or myself for ease of gameplay and for what makes sense.

So using your example, a group of six minions I would have fearsome impact each one of them individually lower their wound thresholds two wounds and then drive on. The same exact way would impact rivals and nemeses . I'm just not so wed to the minion damage group rules that I feel like I can't step outside of it to the benefit of the players or for what makes actual sense.

Why would the 6 rivals be grouped in a single engagement to start with? Also rivals tend to have a higher wound threshold to start with compared to minions, so the total amount of damage still needing to be done to rivals will be higher than the minions

I've always assumed this would simply work the same way the devs said blast works on minions. The damage would be inflicted to each member individually. So, in your example, the 6 minion group would suffer 18 strain, which, depending on what their wound threshold was, would mean at least a couple of them would drop their blasters and run like heck.

So just run it like that, problem solved.

8 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I've always assumed this would simply work the same way the devs said blast works on minions. The damage would be inflicted to each member individually. So, in your example, the 6 minion group would suffer 18 strain, which, depending on what their wound threshold was, would mean at least a couple of them would drop their blasters and run like heck.

So just run it like that, problem solved.

This was the reason I asked the question because of this anomaly, however the devs ruling was that they would essentially be treated like an individual, I actually suggested this as a house rule to my GM as a way round it.

10 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Why would the 6 rivals be grouped in a single engagement to start with? Also rivals tend to have a higher wound threshold to start with compared to minions, so the total amount of damage still needing to be done to rivals will be higher than the minions

It isnt meant to be a real example, but just to show that 6 minions surrounding you, or 6 rivals, the rivals would come out worse, I could equally use 3 for the example, ultimately you would do x strain dmg per roll, but the minions would only get one roll, where as the rivals would get Y rolls meaning dmg for minins is X and dmg for rivals X*Y, an oversimplification but it serves to show a point. 6 minions would be far less scared than 6 rivals, but they would also be singularly a better shot than each of the rivals(*), so it does kind of make sense, from a certain point of view

(*) assuming they have a ranged skill. Note that they would be unlikely to even fail the roll if they had discipline (or cool as appropriate) as a group skill.

6 hours ago, syrath said:

This was the reason I asked the question because of this anomaly, however the devs ruling was that they would essentially be treated like an individual, I actually suggested this as a house rule to my GM as a way round it.

Yeah, basically the fear effect is an area of effect attack. And since blast is also AOE, and works by applying the damage individually, I see no reason the same rule shouldn't apply to a group fear effect. the only difference is they run away instead of drop dead, but the end result is the same, they have left the encounter.

23 hours ago, 2P51 said:

You only get one check against the minion group IF you've grouped them. There's no rule that says you have to group them. In fact the rule is you may use them as individuals or grouped. So the answer the Devs gave you to your question is correct, the way you phrased the question.

I think you mean, what they said is the truth....from a certain point of view

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah, basically the fear effect is an area of effect attack. And since blast is also AOE, and works by applying the damage individually, I see no reason the same rule shouldn't apply to a group fear effect. the only difference is they run away instead of drop dead, but the end result is the same, they have left the encounter.

I'm not sure I would say the effect is the same....dead enemies don't regroup, pump up their courage, hold a grudge or come back to haunt you

15 minutes ago, stocke2 said:

I'm not sure I would say the effect is the same....dead enemies don't regroup, pump up their courage, hold a grudge or come back to haunt you

And minions aren't likely to do that either. By design, minions are meant to be disposable. They are the extras in an action movie that never show up again after the fight scene they take part in. The guys who, while running away, spout out "I'm not paid enough for this *bleep*!" and exit stage right.

There is no reason to have them come back. Now, if you want to upgrade them to a Rival, and have them come back later as a more serious threat, sure, go ahead. But at it's base, whether you kill the minion, or make the minion run away, they are effectively removed from the game from that point forward.

To be honest Im actually not looking for a house rule round the dev ruling , just wanted to know what people thought about the odd result that gets thrown up as a result of it.

Having it apply as an AoE on the minions actually made sense in one way to me but not in others. One of those is that as it stands Fearsome could be a much more effective one off(per encounter but reusable against different targets) Scathing Tirade. As noted earlier against rivals or nemesis standing near you , you could step in and on average with fearsome 5 against 2 willpower get 3 strain damage on each opponent, as an incidental, then follow up with Scathing Tirade. Scathing Tirade, costs and action and with 5 coercion 6 willpower has an average result of around 4 success with 3 advantage with a triumph 1/3 of the time. For a grand total of 7 strain shared over 4 targets with a maximum of 4 on one . Although you could drop 2 advantage on No Escape (Warden) and cause one target in short range plus any that failed their fear check with 3 threat to lose their next free maneuver.

Assuming the character is a warden is actually a fair assumption as there are only 3 combinations that can lead to Fearsome 5 ,2 of which contain warden. Imagine though the combination of Terrify, Scathing Tirade and Fearsome in play add in overbalance disorient etc and it does get scary(pun intended)

8 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

And minions aren't likely to do that either. By design, minions are meant to be disposable. They are the extras in an action movie that never show up again after the fight scene they take part in. The guys who, while running away, spout out "I'm not paid enough for this *bleep*!" and exit stage right.

There is no reason to have them come back. Now, if you want to upgrade them to a Rival, and have them come back later as a more serious threat, sure, go ahead. But at it's base, whether you kill the minion, or make the minion run away, they are effectively removed from the game from that point forward.

depending on the minions I wouldn't necessarily run it that way...storm troopers or gang members might come back with more friends, however I would give one check per minion group. I would say minions would be of the mindset that they have more courage in numbers(if only to not look weak in front of their "friends", in which case its really fear of their friends overriding fear of you, in ). In fact i would give you a setback die if they outnumbered you, maybe two if they had more than double your numbers.

I'm not saying the minions would always come back, but I want my players to feel there are consequences for their actions. What their characters do has an actual influence on the world we are creating and decisions made today can affect what happens tomorrow, or next week.

49 minutes ago, stocke2 said:

depending on the minions I wouldn't necessarily run it that way...storm troopers or gang members might come back with more friends, however I would give one check per minion group. I would say minions would be of the mindset that they have more courage in numbers(if only to not look weak in front of their "friends", in which case its really fear of their friends overriding fear of you, in ). In fact i would give you a setback die if they outnumbered you, maybe two if they had more than double your numbers.

I'm not saying the minions would always come back, but I want my players to feel there are consequences for their actions. What their characters do has an actual influence on the world we are creating and decisions made today can affect what happens tomorrow, or next week.

Like I said, if you want them to come back, fine, but the whole point of the minion mechanic, as stated by the devs on multiple occasions, was to have a "throw away" form of antagonist for the PC's to move through. They aren't meant to have story arcs, or pathos, or character development. At their basic concept. If it makes sense in your game to have them come back, fine, but to counter your point about why you shouldn't just kill them, that has it's own ramifications to. Being the kind of person where everyone that meets you dies, has it's downsides, or at least it should if the GM is doing their job right. Being the kind of person who will at least allow those who don't want to die, the option to leave, is the more humane route. Not everyone that fights is willing to die for that cause. Especially minions, who are very often, literally hired help. It's a job, nothing more. They don't have any vested interest in your PC's.

So yes, letting them live might cause them to come back, and you can use the standard gamer mentality of "Kill Them All" if you like, but for the most part, when talking about minions, if they leave, either feet first, or by running away, the GM should generally just count them out.

I never said you SHOULD kill them, just that if you frighten them away, you might consider they might be possibl candidates to come back and haunt you later, especially if one of them gains influence later and maybe is no longer a minion...and he remembers you.

just saying, specially if you are going to allow them to apply it to each minion instead of each minion group the way you should, that you balance that out so the PC's dont think they can go around just frighten everyone they meet as a way of solving problems.

"kill them all" and frightening everyone away or scathing rebuking everyone are not the only ways to solve an encounter.

mainly saying it is a good way to introduce more story into the campaign, and I wouldn't have them come back in the same session....unless it was for story reasons.

1 hour ago, stocke2 said:

mainly saying it is a good way to introduce more story into the campaign, and I wouldn't have them come back in the same session....unless it was for story reasons.

Dead enemies also provide story opportunity, where the brother of some nameless mook bounty hunter you killed previously shows up as the BBEG of your next campaign. Live enemies though can be so much more fun.

25 minutes ago, syrath said:

Dead enemies also provide story opportunity, where the brother of some nameless mook bounty hunter you killed previously shows up as the BBEG of your next campaign. Live enemies though can be so much more fun.

absolutely, and I especially like the idea of some minion you've wrongd coming back later in the campaign as a nemesis possibly....after you've forgotten all about him. I mean he was just a faceless minion....but he hasn't forgotten you! That could b a fun story arc, even just finding out who this guy actually is.

like the creature in the hitchhikers guide who wants to kill Arthur Dent....and he turns out to be a guy who kept getting reincarnated and then subsequently killed by Arthur Dent as a fly or rabbit, or whale.