62 Premeasuring

62.1 Players can measure using the range ruler at any time.

62.2 Players can only use movement templates while performing
a move action. Movement templates cannot be used in any
way to measure or predict the outcome of a movement at any
other time during the game

So... I can measure whatever I want, whenever I want, for any reason, using the range tool, yes?

I can pick two arbitrary points and measure between them because I feel like it, or check range from a unit to an obstacle, or try and determine what range my two eyes are from one another, yes?

If not, why not?

That's my understanding. I think it's an odd departure from X-Wing. In any case, my impression was that this rule is part of what inspired this thread:

If you can accurately gauge your movement based on the range ruler, you virtually eliminate guessing and estimation from the game. Furthermore, if the tournament rules don't forbid marking your range ruler, you could even mark it up with movement distances on one side. I bet they would forbid that, but they still can't stop you from using your range ruler to guess at movement distances.

1 minute ago, Budgernaut said:

That's my understanding. I think it's an odd departure from X-Wing. In any case, my impression was that this rule is part of what inspired this thread:

If you can accurately gauge your movement based on the range ruler, you virtually eliminate guessing and estimation from the game. Furthermore, if the tournament rules don't forbid marking your range ruler, you could even mark it up with movement distances on one side. I bet they would forbid that, but they still can't stop you from using your range ruler to guess at movement distances.

You can do it in Armada.

Hell, in Armada you can measure, mark the measurement with a token, then measure again.

Not such a departure.

Xwing doesnt let you check measurements at all. Closest you can get to that is acquiring a targetlock, but if you are in range you must take the targetlock now. They might have decided to allow the range ruler premeasure since its actually not that useful in xwing for measuring. No idea why Armada lets you premeasure EVERYTHING but in that game its actually not that big a deal since it takes multiple turns to plan a ship's maneuver.

Funnily enough though, its amazing in RWM. The above link shows the maneuvers love to almost perfectly line up with the numbers on the ruler lol.

8 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Xwing doesnt let you check measurements at all. Closest you can get to that is acquiring a targetlock, but if you are in range you must take the targetlock now. They might have decided to allow the range ruler premeasure since its actually not that useful in xwing for measuring. No idea why Armada lets you premeasure EVERYTHING but in that game its actually not that big a deal since it takes multiple turns to plan a ship's maneuver.

Funnily enough though, its amazing in RWM. The above link shows the maneuvers love to almost perfectly line up with the numbers on the ruler lol.

If you use the range ruler backwards it lines up perfectly with the the straight march templates and removes the guesswork of exactly how long an inch actually is. All of the extra length is in the range one segment.

15 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

That's my understanding. I think it's an odd departure from X-Wing. In any case, my impression was that this rule is part of what inspired this thread:

If you can accurately gauge your movement based on the range ruler, you virtually eliminate guessing and estimation from the game. Furthermore, if the tournament rules don't forbid marking your range ruler, you could even mark it up with movement distances on one side. I bet they would forbid that, but they still can't stop you from using your range ruler to guess at movement distances.

Where wheels and turns will land you (and where the back corners of big blocks will end up) still ends up requiring some guessing.

P.11 of the Learn to Play book shows you how to use the Range Ruler. When measuring from one of your units, you place the 1 end against your unit tray. This prevents you from using the Range Ruler backwards (placing the 5 end against your unit trays) for any reason.

Rule 64, Range, tells you how to measure using the Range Ruler between two game components. Rule 62 on premeasuring does not say you can measure anything, anywhere, at any time. My interpretation is that Rule 62 is bound by the LTP rules (when not overridden by the RRG) and Rule 64. So you can use the Range Ruler to measure range between any two game components at any time. But you cannot use the Range Ruler backwards. The 1 end of the Range Ruler has to be placed against one of the game components you are measuring between.

10 minutes ago, kingbobb said:

P.11 of the Learn to Play book shows you how to use the Range Ruler. When measuring from one of your units, you place the 1 end against your unit tray. This prevents you from using the Range Ruler backwards (placing the 5 end against your unit trays) for any reason.

Rule 64, Range, tells you how to measure using the Range Ruler between two game components. Rule 62 on premeasuring does not say you can measure anything, anywhere, at any time. My interpretation is that Rule 62 is bound by the LTP rules (when not overridden by the RRG) and Rule 64. So you can use the Range Ruler to measure range between any two game components at any time. But you cannot use the Range Ruler backwards. The 1 end of the Range Ruler has to be placed against one of the game components you are measuring between.

Page 11 in the LTP is telling you how to measure range from one of your units. The section on premeasuring in the RRG doesn't place any restrictions on what you can measure. There's nothing that says that the measurement needs to be in relation to any game components.

RRG, pg. 15:
'62.1 Players can measure using the range ruler at any time'

2 hours ago, kingbobb said:

P.11 of the Learn to Play book shows you how to use the Range Ruler. When measuring from one of your units, you place the 1 end against your unit tray. This prevents you from using the Range Ruler backwards (placing the 5 end against your unit trays) for any reason.

Rule 64, Range, tells you how to measure using the Range Ruler between two game components. Rule 62 on premeasuring does not say you can measure anything, anywhere, at any time. My interpretation is that Rule 62 is bound by the LTP rules (when not overridden by the RRG) and Rule 64. So you can use the Range Ruler to measure range between any two game components at any time. But you cannot use the Range Ruler backwards. The 1 end of the Range Ruler has to be placed against one of the game components you are measuring between.

Firstly, the RRG always trumps the L2P guide.

Secondly, the example you're talking about is covered under "Range" in the RRG.

Finally, This in no way precludes or prevents players from using the range ruler any way they choose, to measure range between any two arbitrary points as per RR 62.1

That said, thank you for bringing this up, because it needs to be looked at completely.

My interpretation of section 64 is to explain the term "range" when used on cards and game effects. For instance, Ardus' ability is a range 1-3 check, if you held the range ruler backwards, it corrupts the range check, which is why they have the sections specifically describing use of the range ruler to measure the term "range" and when reading cards and ability, what "range" should be defined as.

I think the lack of additional information in section 62 is intentional to indicate the only restrictions are inability to use the movement templates and ability to use the range ruler (1 instrument rather than many, slowing the game down). If the intent was to avoid premeasuring, they would ban it, which they clearly, as written in the rules, are not doing. Using the range ruler backwards still does not give a clear measurement for turn or wheel modified movement, it is only more clear for straight movement.

Lastly, going strictly by the rule of using the range ruler only starting at the indicated 1, there are a lot of times when units are so close together that it is not possibly to lay the range ruler flat to determine accurately from the front edge where 1 should be. Many times I have had the hold the range ruler in the air, above the units, to pre-measure and at that time it would be technically breaking the rules if you have to measure from the very tip of range 1 on the edge of the unit. If it overlaps or extends at all, you would be breaking that range measuring rule.

Now, FFG can come back with a simple fix of "you may use the range ruler at any time, minding that you measure from range 1 out" or "you may premeasure with the range ruler at any time. This is not considered a range measurement, but a premeasurement therefore you may you do not follow range measurement rules".

On 5/12/2017 at 11:10 AM, Tvayumat said:

You can do it in Armada.

Hell, in Armada you can measure, mark the measurement with a token, then measure again.

Not such a departure.

I am pretty sure that you can't mark a position with a token then measure from the token. That would be more than one 'tool'

5 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

I am pretty sure that you can't mark a position with a token then measure from the token. That would be more than one 'tool'

You can, but only one marker token.

It was released via email and, after that, FAQ I believe.

Not using two tools means not using both range and speed templates to triangulate.

2 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

You can, but only one marker token.

It was released via email and, after that, FAQ I believe.

Not using two tools means not using both range and speed templates to triangulate.

What FAQ? Did they release one?

1 hour ago, Ywingscum said:

What FAQ? Did they release one?

Armada

On 5/19/2017 at 0:51 PM, Tvayumat said:

Firstly, the RRG always trumps the L2P guide.

Secondly, the example you're talking about is covered under "Range" in the RRG.

Finally, This in no way precludes or prevents players from using the range ruler any way they choose, to measure range between any two arbitrary points as per RR 62.1

That said, thank you for bringing this up, because it needs to be looked at completely.

Agree that the RRG trumps the LTP...when there's a conflict. It's the first bullet of the Golden Rule

• If something in this reference contradicts the Learn to
Play booklet, the Rules Reference takes precedence.

There's no conflict here. The RRG says you can measure at any time using the Range Ruler. It doesn't say you can measure movement options using the range ruler. Elsewhere in the RRG it says you measure using the Range Ruler to measure between two game elements. The LTP rules show you how to use the Range Ruler.

If folks want to read into the RRG that they can use the Range Ruler anyway they want, anywhen they want, that's up to them. But it IS reading stuff into the RRG, not taking rules out of the RRG. Taken collectively, the RRG says you can measure range between two game elements at any time using the Range Ruler. If you're using it to predict movement outcomes, you're doing so against the rules.

If you're measuring range properly, and can also discern useful information about movement from that legal act, more power to you.

It's reading the rules, and following the rules.

There is zero ambiguity.

You can measure with range ruler at any time.

It's incredibly ironic that the argument "you're reading too much into the rules" almost always comes along with an argument that reads too much into the rules, like deciding to insert assumed phrases such as "you can measure RANGE using THESE SPECIFIC GUIDELINES using the range ruler at any time"

Those words aren't there. Period.

1 hour ago, kingbobb said:

If folks want to read into the RRG that they can use the Range Ruler anyway they want, anywhen they want, that's up to them. But it IS reading stuff into the RRG, not taking rules out of the RRG. Taken collectively, the RRG says you can measure range between two game elements at any time using the Range Ruler. If you're using it to predict movement outcomes, you're doing so against the rules.

What rule says that you can't use the range ruler to predict movement outcomes? Please quote it.

19 hours ago, WWHSD said:

What rule says that you can't use the range ruler to predict movement outcomes? Please quote it.

What rule says you can't sweep all your opponent's figures off the table with your arm and declare yourself the winner? Please quote it.

I've walked through my reasoning, pointing to several sections of the rules that combine to tell you what you can...and can't...do when using the range ruler. You continue to ignore the rest of the rules and rely on a single sentence, read without any other context as provided by the rest of the rules. Until FFG releases something that clarifies one way or another, there's not much point in trying to discuss because the counter side refuses to address the rest of the rule points.

2 hours ago, kingbobb said:

What rule says you can't sweep all your opponent's figures off the table with your arm and declare yourself the winner? Please quote it.

I've walked through my reasoning, pointing to several sections of the rules that combine to tell you what you can...and can't...do when using the range ruler. You continue to ignore the rest of the rules and rely on a single sentence, read without any other context as provided by the rest of the rules. Until FFG releases something that clarifies one way or another, there's not much point in trying to discuss because the counter side refuses to address the rest of the rule points.

I'm not ignoring any rules. I'm just not making up rules that aren't there. You've pointed out rules sections that are only connected by the fact that they mention using the range ruler.

Section 64 describes the range ruler and explains how to use it when measuring between components and when using it to measure to an edge. How to measure these things need to be called out in the rules because those measurements are used for game effects and what points you choose to measure from matter. It doesn't matter how you measuring between two points for the sake of seeing how far apart they are because there isn't a game effect that depends on the outcome of that measurement.

The section on premeasuring tells you that you can measure with the range ruler. It then goes on to tell you that you can only ever use movement templates while performing a move and then specifically tells you that you can't use a movement template to predict movement.

' 62 Premeasuring

62.1 Players can measure using the range ruler at any time.

62.2 Players can only use movement templates while performing a move action. Movement templates cannot be used in any way to measure or predict the outcome of a movement at any other time during the game.'

You're drawing connections that aren't there.

2 hours ago, kingbobb said:

What rule says you can't sweep all your opponent's figures off the table with your arm and declare yourself the winner? Please quote it.

I've walked through my reasoning, pointing to several sections of the rules that combine to tell you what you can...and can't...do when using the range ruler. You continue to ignore the rest of the rules and rely on a single sentence, read without any other context as provided by the rest of the rules. Until FFG releases something that clarifies one way or another, there's not much point in trying to discuss because the counter side refuses to address the rest of the rule points.

So, you can't cite a rule supporting what you're saying?

You can point to the described method for determining the range between two components, and then you argue that the fact that there is a method (again, specifically for determining range between components) means that this is the only legal usage, despite a very clear, separate, and unambiguous rule that contradicts that notion.

I'm not buying it. Seems like an argument that assumes a lot of intent but is content to ignore RAW.

I'm not sure what rules you think I'm ignoring. Seems more like you're reading things that aren't there.

On 5/12/2017 at 10:04 AM, Tvayumat said:

62.2 Players can only use movement templates while performing
a move action. Movement templates cannot be used in any
way to measure or predict the outcome of a movement at any
other time during the game

Wouldn't this rule prevent you from measuring with the range ruler and then "comparing" with a movement template? It quite clearly states that the templates can not be used IN ANY WAY to predict movement. Nothing is stopping someone from memorizing how the range ruler and movement templates align, but it certainly seems that the intent of this rule is to prevent premeasuring for movement purposes; I don't think this is an unreasonable conclusion. Using the range ruler to predict movement would then be a violation of the rules. Of course, it's so easy to work around this using 62.1 that it largely negates the intent of the rule.

Incidentally, what exactly were you planning on using the range ruler to measure? You don't really mention it in the OP. Height of a carrion lancer? Length of your nose? Length of other ... anatomical features?

24 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

...but it certainly seems that the intent of this rule is to prevent premeasuring for movement purposes; I don't think this is an unreasonable conclusion. Using the range ruler to predict movement would then be a violation of the rules. Of course, it's so easy to work around this using 62.1 that it largely negates the intent of the rule.

If the intent was to prevent premeasuring for movement, then they would have stated you can't premeasure for movement, you can only premeasure for a ranged attack using the range ruler. Since they don't state that, you can't assume that is what they meant. They were very specific in writing out the rules, that you are allowed to premeasure using the range ruler tool, but not the movement templates. That is the full extent of the premeasuring rules section, there is no other exceptions or restrictions. I do fully agree that you can't stand there and use the range ruler and then also use the movement templates to "compare". What the rules do and do not clearly state is that you can't use the movement templates, it doesn't state you can't use "templates" to "predict movement". That ruling is specifically and only applied to the movement templates. FFG was very specific to only mention the movement templates in that ruling of predicting movement.

3 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

If the intent was to prevent premeasuring for movement, then they would have stated you can't premeasure for movement, you can only premeasure for a ranged attack using the range ruler. Since they don't state that, you can't assume that is what they meant.

When do they actually state what their intent is for most of these rules? I guarantee you that if you went through the rules, at least 90% would not have any "intent" stated, it is merely inferred (which is a VERY unfortunate aspect of most rulesets). Why specifically have two rules for premeasuring, one for the range ruler (used for ranged attacks and abilities), and one for movement templates (used for actual movement)? You can use one to premeasure, but not the other; what does that imply to you?

10 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

FFG was very specific to only mention the movement templates in that ruling of predicting movement.

Right, and they were also very specific to say that movement templates can not be used IN ANY WAY to predict movement. Does memorizing their length count?

7 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

When do they actually state what their intent is for most of these rules? I guarantee you that if you went through the rules, at least 90% would not have any "intent" stated, it is merely inferred (which is a VERY unfortunate aspect of most rulesets). Why specifically have two rules for premeasuring, one for the range ruler (used for ranged attacks and abilities), and one for movement templates (used for actual movement)? You can use one to premeasure, but not the other; what does that imply to you?

You imply that the range ruler can only be used to measure range. You implied that you can't premeasure movement. None of that shows up in the rules, unless you make interpretations on intent. My suggestion is that if you read the rules verbatim, you don't have to make any assumptions on intent or implications, simply that you can use the range ruler and you can't use the movement templates. Simple as that.

7 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

Right, and they were also very specific to say that movement templates can not be used IN ANY WAY to predict movement. Does memorizing their length count?

FFG knew people would figure out how the range ruler matches up with the movement templates. That's a no brainer. Any competitive gamer would figure out how to use the range ruler to determine the allowed premeasuring. You're assuming FFG, with plenty of competitive game experience, overlooked the possibility of a player figuring out how the range ruler and the movement templates match up. Not likely.

If they wanted to prevent a player from predicting movement, they would have either A. Not allowed any premeasuring, or B. Not allowed any premeasuring outside of range specifically. The clear absence shows that you are adding restrictions to the rules that simply are not present in the premeasurement rules.

1 hour ago, Casanunda said:

Wouldn't this rule prevent you from measuring with the range ruler and then "comparing" with a movement template? It quite clearly states that the templates can not be used IN ANY WAY to predict movement.

During a game? Yeah, it might. That gets into a semantic argument over whether or not using the range ruler to measure a template is using a movement template to predict movement.

Knowing the relationship between a movement template and a range ruler because you compared them outside of the game is clearly outside the scope of that block of rules. If all you are using to premeasure is the range ruler and your knowledge of how it compares to a movement template then you're in the clear and following the rules as written.

1 hour ago, Casanunda said:

Incidentally, what exactly were you planning on using the range ruler to measure? You don't really mention it in the OP. Height of a carrion lancer? Length of your nose? Length of other ... anatomical features?

It doesn't matter what they want to premeasure. The rules permit it as long as they are doing their measuring with the range ruler.