7 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Even in the face of whatever proof you want the penalty is NOT autonatic disqualification. Not anywhere in the rules does it say that.

So what? The argument isn't what the rules say to do. The rules leave it to the discretion of the TO. In this case, the TO badly misused his discretion, and that's the problem.

Because Frank Brooks so badly bungled this, the chances are good that FFG is going to feel pressure to actually create mandatory penalties. I, for one, consider that a damned shame. As I said, I'm in favor of TOs having discretion and using judgment, and I'm against mandatory penalties. But the unfortunate corollary of a discretion/judgment-based system is that is that you need TOs capable of exercising good judgment. When you don't have that, you get hyper-incensed people calling for (barely metaphorical) hanging.

Quote

The ONLY opinion that matters was Frank Brooks', whose job it was to make that call and was far better placed than either of us with all information available about what the objective and priorities of a TO at FFGs world championships.

There is literally no circumstance in which (1) allowing a win in which cheating occurred to stand, (2) while forcing the cheated-upon to take a loss, (3) and -- the extra special crap-snack in the whole thing -- giving a massive unearned win to a completely arbitrary other participant.

There is no circumstance in which that was good judgment. Full stop.

Quote

In my blog on the subject I said that one of the things that went right in the whole mess was that he got to play in day two. I stand by that, and I know I'm not alone in thinking it.

There are also people who hold the opinion that our planet is flat. They're not alone, either. It doesn't make their opinion any less ridiculously stupid.

Bungling the pairings for the game loss is entirely separate from demanding a DQ. And you have NO IDEA AT ALL what their motives and objectives are that led to them deciding a game loss was the ruling they wanted to give.

I won't waste more time here. It is what it is, and it will stay that way. I suggest you deal with it.

16 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Fun. You're playing for plastic target lock tokens... get a grip!

No, I'm taking a vacation where the highlight will be playing against some of the best players in the world in my chosen game system. Hosting a fair tournament where players will be held to a standard of honest play is a basic standard of expectation and at World's FFG showed that they have no interest in maintaining that standard.

1 minute ago, thecactusman17 said:

No, I'm taking a vacation where the highlight will be playing against some of the best players in the world in my chosen game system. Hosting a fair tournament where players will be held to a standard of honest play is a basic standard of expectation and at World's FFG showed that they have no interest in maintaining that standard.

He cheated, he got punished. They maintained the standard they saw was appropriate. It's their game, their rules, their yard.

4 minutes ago, SOTL said:

It is what it is, and it will stay that way.

I think the general theme about this is: We will see about that.
Same as for the allowed collusion in tournament, it was what it was until pressure was too high on FFG.

Just now, SOTL said:

He cheated, he got punished. They maintained the standard they saw was appropriate. It's their game, their rules, their yard.

Can you point me to the part where he got punished? I mean don't get me wrong, trading a guaranteed loss against a win and loss sounds not like punishment to me, especially when this guarantees survival of the round. Anyone would take those chances, especially when the rounds get harder and harder based on pairing.

2 minutes ago, SOTL said:

He cheated, he got punished. They maintained the standard they saw was appropriate. It's their game, their rules, their yard.

He was allowed into the cut and honest players were relegated out. The people punished were honest players, not the cheater.

4 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

He was allowed into the cut and honest players were relegated out. The people punished were honest players, not the cheater.

His record after punishment was good enough to make day two. This is functioning as intended.

Only the mess up of the how the game loss was awarded had any adverse impact on 'honest players' and very possibly had no impact at all on who progressed.

6 minutes ago, SOTL said:

His record after punishment was good enough to make day two. This is functioning as intended.

Only the mess up of the how the game loss was awarded had any adverse impact on 'honest players' and very possibly had no impact at all.

His record was so good based on the punishment. Cheating being advantageous is under those rulings ... apparently functioning as intended. The game loss for the cheated player btw was the reason for him not making the cut.

Do you have a grap how the system works or how can you call winning by cheating on an otherwise lost game and auto-losing a complete different game a punishment`? That is an advantageous trade-off which any player that far in the tournament should take.

edit:
Adding to that, I am looking forward to a player "accidently" literally flipping the table when a few points ahead based on shooting down a large ship to half points and taking a win in that game and a loss the next one to advance safely into the top 16. Because, hey why not?! ;-)

5 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

His record was so good based on the punishment. Cheating being advantageous is under those rulings ... apparently functioning as intended. The game loss for the cheated player btw was the reason for him not making the cut.

Do you have a grap how the system works or how can you call winning by cheating on an otherwise lost game and auto-losing a complete different game a punishment`? That is an advantageous trade-off which any player that far in the tournament should take.

edit:
Adding to that, I am looking forward to a player "accidently" literally flipping the table when a few points ahead based on shooting down a large ship to half points and taking a win in that game and a loss the next one to advance safely into the top 16. Because, hey why not?! ;-)

You cannot say the game loss for the cheated player was the reason they didn't make the cut. If they go into the 3-0 bracket not the 2-1 bracket their pairings for the rest of the day are harder. You can't say with any certainty whether it was the difference - they could well have finished on a worse record.

Yes I grasp how the system works, I've played the Pro Tour for Magic and won and lost thousands of dollars on the turn of a card. And the bottom line is that the system does not have DQ as a 'default' punishment and, proof or not, FFG have to rule in line with how they would rule the same offense in other circumstances where proof was less certain. The penalty for murder may be life imprisonment, but if the penalty for the crime is life then it's not upgraded to a death sentence just because they got it on CCTV and know that this particular guy definitely did it.

They got the punishment right (though the manner it was applied was dreadful). If he won all his other games he deserves to make day two. If he had won Worlds I'd have no complaints because aside from that defeat he'd have won all his other games.

FFG will run their events their way for their reasons. That's the end of it. If the only thing stopping your crooked little mind from cheating at plastic spaceships was the threat that you'd be punished very harshly for trying then... go right ahead. It obviously means a great deal to you.

Similar offenses got bans, not life time bans, but bans. ;-)
And he did not win all other games. Aferall he did not play one of the games and cheated in another one which he would have lost otherwise. Two games circumvated at the price of a single loss. Good trade at the stage of the game.

The normal punishment for cheating in sport events is a DQ and depending on severity of the offense a timed or lifetime ban. The tournament rules right before the last updated had a zero tolerance policy as well. The latest one were a bit more vague and that's it.
Besides, I don't intend to visit any FFG events based on their poor judges, so the question if I go ahead and cheat because the rules allow for gaining an advantage with it is rather mood. My crooked little mind can rest at ease. Your lack of restraint and fall back to insults is still amusing.

2 hours ago, SOTL said:

They got the punishment right (though the manner it was applied was dreadful). If he won all his other games he deserves to make day two. If he had won Worlds I'd have no complaints because aside from that defeat he'd have won all his other games.

Had this guy played fair, the results over the 2 games in question would be : loss (in the game he cheated) and uncertain (next game)

As it stands, he got a win (in the game he cheated) and a loss (next game).

This means that his 'punishment' puts him on par with the best result he could hope for if playing fair (1 win 1 loss). How is that in any way detrimental to him ?

4 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Had this guy played fair, the results over the 2 games in question would be : loss (in the game he cheated) and uncertain (next game)

As it stands, he got a win (in the game he cheated) and a loss (next game).

This means that his 'punishment' puts him on par with the best result he could hope for if playing fair (1 win 1 loss). How is that in any way detrimental to him ?

So you 100% know he was going to lose the game he cheated in?

Abd that's about how it was enforced not the ruling itself. You've got to separate the issues.

6 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Similar offenses got bans, not life time bans, but bans. ;-)
And he did not win all other games. Aferall he did not play one of the games and cheated in another one which he would have lost otherwise. Two games circumvated at the price of a single loss. Good trade at the stage of the game.

The normal punishment for cheating in sport events is a DQ and depending on severity of the offense a timed or lifetime ban. The tournament rules right before the last updated had a zero tolerance policy as well. The latest one were a bit more vague and that's it.
Besides, I don't intend to visit any FFG events based on their poor judges, so the question if I go ahead and cheat because the rules allow for gaining an advantage with it is rather mood. My crooked little mind can rest at ease. Your lack of restraint and fall back to insults is still amusing.

Apart from the many sports with sin bins/yellow cards that are used as the majority of punishments.

2 minutes ago, SOTL said:

So you 100% know he was going to lose the game he cheated in?

Abd that's about how it was enforced not the ruling itself. You've got to separate the issues.

I go with the common sense assumption that someone wouldn't cheat in a game they're winning although assuming common sense for a guy that cheats at plastic spaceships and does it in front of a camera might not be the smartest idea.

15 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I go with the common sense assumption that someone wouldn't cheat in a game they're winning although assuming common sense for a guy that cheats at plastic spaceships and does it in front of a camera might not be the smartest idea.

There's 'a game you're behind in' and 'a game you've definitely lost' though.

3 minutes ago, SOTL said:

There's 'a game you're behind in' and 'a game you've definitely lost' though.

His fleet couldn't attack and couldn't perform actions... until his dial mysteriously changed.

Highly likely.

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

Highly likely.

So we agree that he mysteriously benefited from a change in dials after looking at them (without permission), then after confirming his maneuver choice in full view of the camera it changed.

Do you realize that the top table showdown probably boasted about $6000 in travel costs between them as well as incredibly invasive background checks just to enter the country? Before any miniatures costs?

Do you realize just how bad FFG screwed this up? How this will literally kill the game in some areas?

FFG has one recourse here, and it's to issue a full throated apology and take decisive action to ensure this never happens again. EVER.

Yes.

Hyperbole.

Hyper-hyperbole.

No.

Let's flip it. This has been so disastrously handled that store champs attendances are going to be, what, 50% down on last year?

How many cancellation for European Champs have there been after this ruling? 50? 100?

Attendance for Worlds 2018 will be under 200, with no overseas players travelling?

8 hours ago, SOTL said:

He cheated, he got punished. They maintained the standard they saw was appropriate. It's their game, their rules, their yard.

And our money that runs the show

7 hours ago, SOTL said:

His record after punishment was good enough to make day two. This is functioning as intended.

7 hours ago, SOTL said:

You cannot say the game loss for the cheated player was the reason they didn't make the cut. If they go into the 3-0 bracket not the 2-1 bracket their pairings for the rest of the day are harder. You can't say with any certainty whether it was the difference - they could well have finished on a worse record.

We can't. But cheated guy was 1 win short of advancing - thats the fact.

After we do the match it looks like a PR disaster.

53 minutes ago, SOTL said:

So you 100% know he was going to lose the game he cheated in?

Of course not 100% - but its was pretty crucial turn. Did you watch the game?

So I assume you will not be buying wave 11 as a protest?

27 minutes ago, SOTL said:

So I assume you will not be buying wave 11 as a protest?

In fact you are right - that incident somehow was nail to a coffin in reducing my Xwing collection and not buying new ships until something really catches my eye.

(don't start about "how it touched you personally" - it did not, it just left some bitter taste on a cake that already was not so sweet as it used to)

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Yes.

Hyperbole.

Hyper-hyperbole.

No.

Can't check prices on next may, but expedia pegs flights from Singapore to Minnesota in early November (next World's) as starting at over $2400 round trip for any flights under 24 hours. Add 3 nights in a packed hotel at about $200 a night.

That's about $3000 for world champion Justin Phua to attend World's. Before taxes, models or attendance fees.

Nobody else is going to pay that when FFH can't or won't run a fair game.