1 minute ago, duder said:

I'll fully believe that when FFG issues a ban

It was dealt with whether they ban or not. Maybe not dealt with the way you'd deal with it, but it's dealt with and as it's THEIR call to make about THEIR game it's not really your place to say if they were right or wrong outside of just being your own opinion.

For the record, I do think we need a set of guidelines for cases like this, but only to remove social pressure from the individuals that dedicate their time to organize events for us, not because of the holy integrity of competetive X-Wing. The judges at the highest level demonstarted how difficult it is to make descisions under those circumstances on the spot. Wouldn't want the local TO to be put in the same unfortunate situation.

1 minute ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

For the record, I do think we need a set of guidelines for cases like this, but only to remove social pressure from the individuals that dedicate their time to organize events for us, not because of the holy integrity of competetive X-Wing. The judges at the highest level demonstarted how difficult it is to make descisions under those circumstances on the spot. Wouldn't want the local TO to be put in the same unfortunate situation.

This is the only really good argument for introducing guidelines.

First, what's the point in having an official ban list if it is not going to be used?

Second, I am I local TO, wish is why I want official floor rules. I'm even ok with a sliding scale depending on the type of event.

7 minutes ago, duder said:

First, what's the point in having an official ban list if it is not going to be used?

Second, I am I local TO, wish is why I want official floor rules. I'm even ok with a sliding scale depending on the type of event.

Your floor rules are that, as the local TO, you run the event your way. What more could you ask for?

45 minutes ago, duder said:

First, what's the point in having an official ban list if it is not going to be used?

It has been used, someone got banned from all official FFG events. It wasn't for X-Wing, it was for a different game. But it has been used.

Apparently in this case the crime didn't rise to the level deserving a permanent ban in the opinion of the Marshall, and since the Marshall has the final say, that's all that matters.

4 hours ago, VanorDM said:

Apparently in this case the crime didn't rise to the level deserving a permanent ban in the opinion of the Marshall, and since the Marshall has the final say, that's all that matters.

Okay, before I comment on this, I want to be very clear: I am against "mandatory sentencing" in X-Wing. I'm in favor of TOs using their discretion. I'm in favor of judges using judgment.

That said, this -- "since the Marshall has the final say, that's all that matters" -- is just a silly thing to say, without being very specific about the context. The final clause has zero logical connective tissue to the assertion it follows. Someone can have "the final say," and it "matters" if that someone's final say is idiotic. It may not matter in terms of the actual final outcome, but it matters a helluva lot in other ways. (Just for one major example, it matters as to whether or not players ever trust that TO to make good judgments again.)

The TO in this case was Frank Brooks (a nice guy, IMO), and he made a really, really bad judgment call. (At least one ... possibly multiple.) When one considers Frank's history with X-Wing rules questions, in conjunction with his call in this case, I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people giving the side-eye. His final say on this matters ... because it was idiotic.

I mean, if being caught cheating, on camera, doesn't even preclude making the cut to Day 2, what exactly would ? What single act would a player have to perform for Frank to say, "Whoa; no more tournament for you"?

Should have, but I'm still hoping a year ban happens

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Okay, before I comment on this, I want to be very clear: I am against "mandatory sentencing" in X-Wing. I'm in favor of TOs using their discretion. I'm in favor of judges using judgment.

That said, this -- "since the Marshall has the final say, that's all that matters" -- is just a silly thing to say, without being very specific about the context. The final clause has zero logical connective tissue to the assertion it follows. Someone can have "the final say," and it "matters" if that someone's final say is idiotic. It may not matter in terms of the actual final outcome, but it matters a helluva lot in other ways. (Just for one major example, it matters as to whether or not players ever trust that TO to make good judgments again.)

The TO in this case was Frank Brooks (a nice guy, IMO), and he made a really, really bad judgment call. (At least one ... possibly multiple.) When one considers Frank's history with X-Wing rules questions, in conjunction with his call in this case, I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people giving the side-eye. His final say on this matters ... because it was idiotic.

I mean, if being caught cheating, on camera, doesn't even preclude making the cut to Day 2, what exactly would ? What single act would a player have to perform for Frank to say, "Whoa; no more tournament for you"?

Maybe almost none, and maybe that's ok.

39 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Maybe almost [nothing would make Frank Brooks DQ a player], and maybe that's ok.

I suspect that -- even as wide a spectrum of opinion on this incident as exists, and as fully populated -- this is an extreme minority viewpoint.

On 12.05.2017 at 2:12 PM, tsondaboy said:

Currently we have an official ruling that says, "if you get caught changing your dials illegally during the activation phase, you will be granted a game loss".
Based on this ruling, what would prevent someone that is in a loosing game from changing his dials at any chance given?
They are already fighting a loosing battle and getting a game loss for changing their dials and possible turning the tables in their favor wont make their position any worst than it already is.
Is this kind of thing going to be left to peoples honesty and desire for fair play from now on?

Furthermore, as a TO in my small community of gamers I face a second problem. If I catch someone cheating like that, what am I supposed to do?
Follow the official ruling and give to the perpetrator a game loss, or go one step beyond the the official ruling and disqualify him from the tournament?
As much as I would love to take the second option, I consider myself bound the official rulings and will only grant a game loss.
I do not have the luxury to make my own rulings when there are official ones and risk being the bad guy on a power trip and start loosing players to that.

Regarding the recent incident, I firmly believe that the current ruling should not be amended or reverted.
I understand it was a hasty decision taken under pressure due to the cataclysmic flow of information.
Still, I beg for an official guideline that would discourage people from taking advantage of this precedent in the future.

I'm a TO/judge myself in a medium sized community of players (up to 20+ players for local tournaments, something around 60 for regionals) and frankly I don't see the problem. Firstly, any player caught at outright cheating will face consequences far greater than anything you might do to him as TO, just as Guidry suffered consequences far exceeding a game loss. Especially in the smaller communities the stigma of being a cheater will probably result in him quitting the game sooner rather than later as he simply won't feel comfortable in the community anymore.

Secondly, outright cheating results in a ban, period. The only reason why Guidry wasn't DQed was because the judges decided his intent was "not malicious". Without having heard what he told them I'm going to refrain from criticizing that judgment. That said, nobody ever claimed that YOU need to judge intentional tampering with dials as "not malicious". In fact, you're at a liberty to consider it as malicious as you want to, with all the consequences of that fact.

Finally, since you appear to be one of the leaders of X-wing community, could you please refrain from beating that dead horse over and over? The entire Guidry case has been overblown from the very beginning. We really, REALLY don't need another "omg cheating is allowed now" thread and from a TO to boot. Just because judges made one dubious decision at Worlds doesn't mean that cheating is allowed now in any shape or form. And frankly I'm a bit embarrassed I have to spell it out.

18 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

I've got tickets for the Armada champs at NoVa in August. I'm considering a refund, at the cost of hundreds of dollars for the event and hotel. I haven't even bought plane tickets yet. One time national tournament regulars in my area have put their full collections up for sale.

Don't stop. Flood the forums. Revolt. Refuse to engage in offiicial FFG tournaments until the person is retroactively permabanned and clear rules are offered stating that cheating is to result in an immediate ejection, then a loss. In that order.

If you give in now, just accept that there is no longer a purpose to the rules against cheating.

Thank you thecactusman17 for wording it so elegantly. If cheating is OK, then what is the purpose of rules!?

Bumping your Star Destroyer in Armada during a tournament? Not a problem, just nudge it out of the way. Your ships are chain bumping in X-Wing, not a problem, pick up the dial and change their direction.

And someone was suggesting that a TO will put it up for a vote to see if a cheater gets booted or not!? What if the cheater came with their friends and the person cheated on was by themselves?

Another person said they were too afraid to lose players if they got kicked out for cheating. In my opinion, you will lose way more players who don't have time to play and get cheated.

This is not real life, I want my gaming time to be devoted to a fair game, and all participants having fun. I am not sure FFG realizes the gravity of the situation here.

35 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I suspect that -- even as wide a spectrum of opinion on this incident as exists, and as fully populated -- this is an extreme minority viewpoint.

I wonder what evidence you've got that players should expect DQ to be a common ruling in an x-wing tournament?

5 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I wonder what evidence you've got that players should expect DQ to be a common ruling in an x-wing tournament?

There is no evidence, only opinion.

9 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I wonder what evidence you've got that players should expect DQ to be a common ruling in an x-wing tournament?

I wonder why in the world you think I said "players should expect DQ to be a common ruling."

Is that (somehow) what you actually think I wrote?

17 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I wonder why in the world you think I said "players should expect DQ to be a common ruling."

Is that (somehow) what you actually think I wrote?

Well if thinking almost nothing would get a DQ is puts me in an 'extreme minority' then surely the opposing view is that lots of things should get a DQ.

3 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Well if thinking almost nothing would get a DQ is puts me in an 'extreme minority' then surely the opposing view is that lots of things should get a DQ.

Uh ... no. ( ... Really?)

The opposing view is "something as extreme as getting caught cheating on camera should get a DQ."

3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Uh ... no. ( ... Really?)

The opposing view is "something as extreme as getting caught cheating on camera should get a DQ."

1. The camera should not have any bearing whatsoever

2. In your opinion, which is worth as little as mine.

9 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

For the record, I do think we need a set of guidelines for cases like this, but only to remove social pressure from the individuals that dedicate their time to organize events for us, not because of the holy integrity of competetive X-Wing. The judges at the highest level demonstarted how difficult it is to make descisions under those circumstances on the spot. Wouldn't want the local TO to be put in the same unfortunate situation.

While I do not agree that the pressure for those judges is that high, sure it's worlds, but it the world championship of a niche hobbyist group, making the referee for a third string european football league has more pressure, integrity requirements and fitness requirements, I still do fully agree that making everything easier for judges and players is the key reason for having better guidelines.

7 minutes ago, SOTL said:

1. The camera should not have any bearing whatsoever

2. In your opinion, which is worth as little as mine.

Of course the camera matters. It's proof . Jeeesus.

It's a fallacy that every person's opinion is equally worthwhile. You're proving it with literally every post at this point.

12 hours ago, duder said:

It shouldn't matter, an event is an event. They still cheated, FFG let it pass

But almost all FGLS stores are not FFG. Now with the Dailgate issue, yeah that was clearly FFG, and yes they just about let it pass and when confronted they were perhaps a little too soft handed on it. But again your complaint needs to be taken with the right people. You can take say a grievance about your neighbor's loud music with the President of the united States and at best you would just get ignored. Now take it up with the local police/sheriff or if in the same complex the landlord/HOA and you would get better results.

What I'm trying to say is FFG didn't let it pass, the store you went to let it pass. FFG is too far removed to take any "official" action in your case. Yeah I know it is throwing the responsibility on someone else but that is exactly how the world works. Delegate authority (which means you no longer have control) down and it is in reality out of your hands. Now sure that doesn't mean it always falls in the right hands but again, name someone better?

19 minutes ago, SOTL said:

1. The camera should not have any bearing whatsoever

2. In your opinion, which is worth as little as mine.

The camera proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the dial was changed by the player, and proves at the change was not corrected by the player on discovery.

Since your opinion matters so little, let me give mine: I've spent thousands of dollars on collecting FFG Star Wars miniatures and going to official FFG events in the United States.

And that will stop abruptly if this isn't publicly rectified. What is the point of playing competitive games if proven cheaters are allowed to progress at the expense of honesty players at the very highest levels of competition events?

10 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Of course the camera matters. It's proof . Jeeesus.

It's a fallacy that every person's opinion is equally worthwhile. You're proving it with literally every post at this point.

Even in the face of whatever proof you want the penalty is NOT autonatic disqualification. Not anywhere in the rules does it say that.

The ONLY opinion that matters was Frank Brooks', whose job it was to make that call and was far better placed than either of us with all information available about what the objective and priorities of a TO at FFGs world championships.

In my blog on the subject I said that one of the things that went right in the whole mess was that he got to play in day two. I stand by that, and I know I'm not alone in thinking it.

5 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

The camera proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the dial was changed by the player, and proves at the change was not corrected by the player on discovery.

Since your opinion matters so little, let me give mine: I've spent thousands of dollars on collecting FFG Star Wars miniatures and going to official FFG events in the United States.

And that will stop abruptly if this isn't publicly rectified. What is the point of playing competitive games if proven cheaters are allowed to progress at the expense of honesty players at the very highest levels of competition events?

Fun. You're playing for plastic target lock tokens... get a grip!

10 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Fun. You're playing for plastic target lock tokens... get a grip!

Plastic tokens, cards and a medal worth about $1000 for the top 16 at worlds.
If I just downright steal those plastic goodies, I am going for grand theft x-wing ;-)