In the group I play in almost every person felt disqualification would have been the proper decision. I have gamed for almost 40 years and in no case that I can remember was the player not disqualified. remember there are honest mistakes, but the case in point was if you watched the video clear what happened. In most cases it is difficult to determine when someone intentionally cheated, because it boils down too one persons word against another, but in cases where you have clear witnesses or evidence then I see no choice but disqualification.

As TO, you have to go with official rules and rulings.

HOWEVER, the precedent you are concerned by was NOT an official ruling. It was a decision based on information available to the TOs at worlds at the time the decision was made, and it was for exactly one case. Ffg has not set any precedent for future events, with the possible exception of future Worlds events (whole other can of worms and debate there).

Ffg says you have final say. Do what makes the most sense for your tournament, for your players, and for the offense in question.

14 hours ago, tsondaboy said:

Currently we have an official ruling that says, "if you get caught changing your dials illegally during the activation phase, you will be granted a game loss".

Untrue. He was given a game loss and a warning. Someone in the situation you described will have the additional penalty of a warning (if you decide to follow FFG's lead). What that warning means is up to you. Could be "next call is a DQ." Could be "three warnings in 6 months is a 3-month ban." Whatever you want.

double post

A precedent was set and at the highest form of proof (we can't read minds.... Can we?)

It is the TO decision but others have paid money, time, and emotions to participate and compete.

Mistakes are accidently bumping or picking up the wrong dial (Guilty here at GenCon - but didn't see the manuever thank goodness). Our society keeps calling getting caught a mistake and not calling out how someone took advantage of another, how they took away their rights to a fair game. Stop calling it a mistake but call it a violation against another player. The focus had been in the player who cheated but my focus is on the playerS who were cheated out of flying casual. Who is sticking up for ALL if them?

I guess it really doesn't matter to treat others with respect, kindness, and share a Star Wars X-Wing bond as long as you win.

As for anyone who has harassed the cheater, (telling it how it is while in X-Wing community is not harassment) they themselves should be banned for the same lack is respect.

Perhaps FFG can release a recommended floor rules listing options.

We actually don't have an official ruling. We had an official ruling in X-wing FAQ version 2.1 which stated such action as intolerable offenses. But that has been omitted in subsequent tournament rulings of the FAQ.

The dangerous precedent was not in the judges decision, but in not maintaining consistency with the FAQs and a shifting of focus from maintaining the game's integrity to a use as a mere balancing tool.

I don't think it's a good idea to treat TO decisions as precedents. Let's assume a TO in the US faces some new situation for which there is no precedent and he has to make a decision. A few weeks later, a TO in Poland happens to be facing the same situation. The Polish TO is then not in his right to come up with a ruling on the spot, he has to be aware of the precedent. This can, and will, get out of hand very quick.

And the problem is: it's not a solution. Because a TO will still have to make a decision if the situation he is facing is really the same as the one that set the precedent. So the TO is still the final arbiter, and a precedent gives no guarantee about how an infraction will be punished.

For example, let's assume for a moment that the player changing his dial after the planning phase was not dsiqualified because the TOs, after talking to him, came to the conclusion that he did it on a whim and not because he planned to do so before the game. This is important, because it means he will probably not do it again. Then, let's assume this sets a precedent. Both assumptions just for the sake of the argument.

This means that a TO who has to judge a player who does the same thing has to determine whether or not the player is going to do it again. If not, then he will suffer just a game loss. If he is likely to do it again, the he will be DQ'd. Now, a TO is suddenly forced to make a very difficult decision. Because of the precedent.

And finally, what about a player who was DQ'd for some infraction, but then finds out that at a previous tournament a player got away with merely a game loss? If TO rulings set a precedent, then the later decision would be misbehaviour on the part of the TO, and the player would have been illegally DQ'd. Again, this is not a desirable situation.

Do not use TO decisions as precedents. Keep the rulings of a single tournament in the hands of the organisers of that particular tournament.

On 13.5.2017 at 5:22 AM, skotothalamos said:

Untrue. He was given a game loss and a warning. Someone in the situation you described will have the additional penalty of a warning (if you decide to follow FFG's lead). What that warning means is up to you. Could be "next call is a DQ." Could be "three warnings in 6 months is a 3-month ban." Whatever you want.

^THIS^

IMO warning was the primary penalty and game loss was only because the proof was there.

In many cases claims of cheating are word against word and TO can really only issue a warning and keep an eye out.

On 5/12/2017 at 7:22 PM, skotothalamos said:

Untrue. He was given a game loss and a warning. Someone in the situation you described will have the additional penalty of a warning (if you decide to follow FFG's lead). What that warning means is up to you. Could be "next call is a DQ." Could be "three warnings in 6 months is a 3-month ban." Whatever you want.

9 minutes ago, Arthur_McGuire said:

^THIS^

IMO warning was the primary penalty and game loss was only because the proof was there.

In many cases claims of cheating are word against word and TO can really only issue a warning and keep an eye out.

I think the biggest outrage is that in a previous FAQ such action was declared "Not to be tolerated".

Now again you could go into interpretation and ask what does zero tolerance mean? Forfeit a match, DQ, suspended? However as I stated in the thread below the whole zero tolerance policy on changing dials in activation phase without the use of an effect such as Boba Fet or Stay on Target has been abandoned.

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

I think the biggest outrage is that in a previous FAQ such action was declared "Not to be tolerated".

Now again you could go into interpretation and ask what does zero tolerance mean? Forfeit a match, DQ, suspended? However as I stated in the thread below the whole zero tolerance policy on changing dials in activation phase without the use of an effect such as Boba Fet or Stay on Target has been abandoned.

Probably because the rules already forbid it. If one infraction is specifically designated as intolerable, it kind of suggests that there are tolerable infractions. And none of that would be very clear, because as you point out, 'intolerable' does not suggest a specific penalty.

1 minute ago, Verlaine said:

Probably because the rules already forbid it. If one infraction is specifically designated as intolerable, it kind of suggests that there are tolerable infractions. And none of that would be very clear, because as you point out, 'intolerable' does not suggest a specific penalty.

yeah but the rules merely say how the dials are supposed to work. There is no "forbidden" in the rules as they are more of an instruction on how to play the game not maintaining the integrity of the game like the FAQs. That one passage I looked up in a previous FAQ is no where to be found. I had to use my own personal archives I maintain of the FAQs to find it.

Now of just because the rules doesn't say specifically you are not allowed to change your dials in the activation phase, common sense would dictate that you don't do such a thing as the only statement about changing your dials is you are allowed to change your dials as long as the planning phase has not ended.

Still this is a result not only of a player trying to pull a fast one but an exposed oversight on the part of FFG. If the person who cheated got DQ, I think there would be less outrage, the only grievance would be not to award a win to the cheated player. Still there wouldn't be as much of an outrage as there was for this incident.

5 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

yeah but the rules merely say how the dials are supposed to work. There is no "forbidden" in the rules as they are more of an instruction on how to play the game not maintaining the integrity of the game like the FAQs. That one passage I looked up in a previous FAQ is no where to be found. I had to use my own personal archives I maintain of the FAQs to find it.

Now of just because the rules doesn't say specifically you are not allowed to change your dials in the activation phase, common sense would dictate that you don't do such a thing as the only statement about changing your dials is you are allowed to change your dials as long as the planning phase has not ended.

Still this is a result not only of a player trying to pull a fast one but an exposed oversight on the part of FFG. If the person who cheated got DQ, I think there would be less outrage, the only grievance would be not to award a win to the cheated player. Still there wouldn't be as much of an outrage as there was for this incident.

Nobody in the whole affair is unsure about how dials are supposed to work, and I don't think the rules reference is very ambiguous in this regard. So the problem doesn't appear to be that someone thought it is perfectly legal to just change a dial after the opponent made a few moves.

Otherwise, I agree that grievance and outrage are what creates a problem. Maybe caving in to that is the solution; it's possible to add some bit to the faq or tournament rules just to make people happy and give them the idea that the penalty is more appropriate.

If you really want to punish a player without going beyond the official rulings, then do the following:

1. Give them the game loss as per FFG ruling.
2. Tell everyone involved and ask for a vote about further punishment, probably tournament expulsion.
3. No doubt, they'll vote for no further punishment. There are a lot of reasons why, but mostly due to a sense of mercy.

This has a couple of benefits. You're obeying the policy, without being totally dependent on it. You're involving the community, bringing everyone closer together. Finally, you're publicly humiliating the cheater, which is the greatest punishment of all.

56 minutes ago, Astech said:

If you really want to punish a player without going beyond the official rulings, then do the following:

1. Give them the game loss as per FFG ruling.
2. Tell everyone involved and ask for a vote about further punishment, probably tournament expulsion.
3. No doubt, they'll vote for no further punishment. There are a lot of reasons why, but mostly due to a sense of mercy.

This has a couple of benefits. You're obeying the policy, without being totally dependent on it. You're involving the community, bringing everyone closer together. Finally, you're publicly humiliating the cheater, which is the greatest punishment of all.

Good points!

I told my Store Champ on saturday if they cheated I would not DQ. Instead they would get a game loss and swift kick to the balls. Under FFG's current guidelines was completely legal.

Also, no one cheated...

I like where this thread is going.

On 5/12/2017 at 1:12 PM, tsondaboy said:

Currently we have an official ruling that says, "if you get caught changing your dials illegally during the activation phase, you will be granted a game loss".
Based on this ruling, what would prevent someone that is in a loosing game from changing his dials at any chance given?
They are already fighting a loosing battle and getting a game loss for changing their dials and possible turning the tables in their favor wont make their position any worst than it already is.
Is this kind of thing going to be left to peoples honesty and desire for fair play from now on?

Furthermore, as a TO in my small community of gamers I face a second problem. If I catch someone cheating like that, what am I supposed to do?
Follow the official ruling and give to the perpetrator a game loss, or go one step beyond the the official ruling and disqualify him from the tournament?
As much as I would love to take the second option, I consider myself bound the official rulings and will only grant a game loss.
I do not have the luxury to make my own rulings when there are official ones and risk being the bad guy on a power trip and start loosing players to that.

Regarding the recent incident, I firmly believe that the current ruling should not be amended or reverted.
I understand it was a hasty decision taken under pressure due to the cataclysmic flow of information.
Still, I beg for an official guideline that would discourage people from taking advantage of this precedent in the future.

Humbly, to all TO's.

Please allow the dust to settle, I would expect that OP are/have sat down at FFG HQ and are coming up with the latest FAQ and Tournament guidelines.

If anyone wants to get mega-critical of this, consider.. "What would you do if the week before worlds you had come across a player who has changed his dial during the activation phase?" Bear in the mind the only previous incident I am aware of is worlds 2012?

On 14/05/2017 at 4:23 AM, rilesman said:

As for anyone who has harassed the cheater, (telling it how it is while in X-Wing community is not harassment) they themselves should be banned for the same lack is respect.

Do you have any proof of harassment against the cheater? It seems the "White Knights" started by Gold Squadron Podcast made up the harassment stories to make the cheater look like a victim. It also hides the fact that Gold Squadron Podcast ignored the twitch chat until the end of the game about the cheating incident.

Gold Squadron Podcast COULD have prevented this whole matter if they addressed the problem when the twitch chat TOLD them about it (AS SOON AS IT HAPPENED). But instead, Gold Squadron Podcast pretended they didn't see the chat and continued to ignore them until the end. By that time, the chat was pretty angry for being ignored. And so, Gold Squadron Podcast told the listeners to shut up and don't bring out the 'pitchforks'. They were just trying to cover their own butts. I have lost all respect for those guys and will never watch a stream or podcast from them again.

On the Technical side of things (for Floor Rules and Such, as people have discussed)

- For regular Tournaments, FFG Empowers Marshals/Organizers (as they are occasionally the same person) to do one thing as a penalty:

Disqualify, Remove from Tournament.

That is it.

That is the only officially sanctioned penalty that a "TO" can do in regards to "Unsportsmanlike Conduct", of which 'Cheating' is a sub-category of.

As per the Fundamental Event Document:

Unsporting Conduct

FFG OP exists to create a fair, safe, and inclusive environment for all participants. Unsporting conduct violates one or more of these elements which are critical to the integrity of an event. Intentional or habitual violations of event integrity could result in investigation, pursuant to the FFG Organized Play Participant Suspension Policy. The marshal role holds the responsibility of being the final authority on whether unsporting conduct has occurred. The organizer is responsible for determining whether the unsporting conduct was severe enough to warrant disqualification of a participant. Unsporting conduct is not limited to occurrences which happen during an event. It can extend to the time before and after the event, as well as digital spaces.

Unsporting behavior includes:
• Cheating
• Collusion
• Bribery
• Stalling
• Behaving in a manner which could be interpreted by a reasonable person as bullying, harassment, belligerent, stalking, vulgar, obscene, threatening, or hurtful
• Knowingly lying to an event leader
• Encroaching on a participant’s personal privacy or safety
• Purposely violating other behavior guidelines at a venue
• Repeatedly refusing to abide by the instructions of an event leader

T his is reinforced in the X-Wing Tournament Regulations (and is a direct copy/paste in the Armada Tournament Regulations, which I was more familiar with - but I did double-check the X-Wing one to be 100% before posting here)



Unsporting Conduct

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden.

The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsporting conduct.

That's it .

Then, you start getting into the FFG-Sanctioned Statements, such as the Suspension Policy:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/op/spolicy/

Which comes to this:

Suspension Procedure

When Fantasy Flight Games becomes aware of an incident that may have compromised the integrity of an official FFG Organized Play event, we attempt to collect statements and other evidence from all relevant parties. If we have reasonable suspicion of a serious violation, we may issue to that participant a temporary suspension from FFG Organized Play until the matter can be fully investigated.

After conducting a thorough investigation and considering all available evidence, FFG may issue a suspension for a length of time deemed appropriate.

FFG personnel will not confirm nor discuss any past or ongoing investigations beyond directing all such inquiries to the current FFG Organized Play Participant Suspension Policy.


Which is exactly where we are now...

(In essence, they did not feel a serious violation had occurred, so no temporary suspension was made)

But outside of Worlds, well, basically, all we have is Disqualification ... And this is reinforced the Suspension Policy,

Notifying FFG of Violations

FFG may become aware of a violation through any number of methods, but there are two that are most common: an organizer who disqualifies a participant during an event, or a participant sending a report of a suspected violation after the event.

Whenever an organizer disqualifies a participant from an official FFG Organized Play event, they should collect statements and other evidence, along with contact information, from all relevant parties. The organizer will also compose a statement themselves, advising how serious the violation was and outlining their process in deciding to disqualify that participant. Immediately after the event, the organizer will include that information in an e-mail to [email protected] with “Disqualification Report” in the subject line.

In cases where no action was taken during the event, or evidence of a violation came to light after an event, concerned participants with substantial evidence to submit can take action. Any participants who were present when the potential violation occurred at an official FFG Organized Play event should compose an email to [email protected] with “Violation Report” in the subject line. The participant should include any statements or other evidence to which they have access, along with any contact information for relevant parties, including a personal statement.

So if there was a Disqualification (our only penalty), it gets reported. If there was not a Disqualification, then a Violation report can be sent in by any participant (of which technically, 'spectator' is a participant).

That's it.

There's otherwise a mixed message in that TOs are the Gods of their game and their word is law, but them having very little actual, formal notice of what they are doing...

... Very Technically, a TO who doesn't follow the rules of the Organised Play Guidelines - can be sanctioned themselves.

So unless there is a massive amendment, note that, as of right now - the only thing a TO, operating under the Fundamental Event Document for Organised Play, can do, is Disqualify. We're not FFG or FFG Organised Play Employees, so those are the rules we abide by to run their events, and cannot take precedence from anything else - because those rules are the rules, love 'em or hate 'em...

52 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:

Do you have any proof of harassment against the cheater? It seems the "White Knights" started by Gold Squadron Podcast made up the harassment stories to make the cheater look like a victim. It also hides the fact that Gold Squadron Podcast ignored the twitch chat until the end of the game about the cheating incident.

Gold Squadron Podcast COULD have prevented this whole matter if they addressed the problem when the twitch chat TOLD them about it (AS SOON AS IT HAPPENED). But instead, Gold Squadron Podcast pretended they didn't see the chat and continued to ignore them until the end. By that time, the chat was pretty angry for being ignored. And so, Gold Squadron Podcast told the listeners to shut up and don't bring out the 'pitchforks'. They were just trying to cover their own butts. I have lost all respect for those guys and will never watch a stream or podcast from them again.

Please do not bring this discussion here. There is another mega-thread dealing with this matter.
Lets keep this thread relative to what FFG needs to do in the future to prevent situations like this to arise again.

42 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

On the Technical side of things (for Floor Rules and Such, as people have discussed)

- For regular Tournaments, FFG Empowers Marshals/Organizers (as they are occasionally the same person) to do one thing as a penalty:

Disqualify, Remove from Tournament.

That is it.

That is the only officially sanctioned penalty that a "TO" can do in regards to "Unsportsmanlike Conduct", of which 'Cheating' is a sub-category of.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So unless there is a massive amendment, note that, as of right now - the only thing a TO, operating under the Fundamental Event Document for Organised Play, can do, is Disqualify. We're not FFG or FFG Organised Play Employees, so those are the rules we abide by to run their events, and cannot take precedence from anything else - because those rules are the rules, love 'em or hate 'em...

I am not attacking you here, but please let me highlight these two points and see if I understand what you say.

Regular TOs are abide to the guidelines described in the Organized Play document and the only penalty they can administer is to disqualify/ remove a perpetrator from a tournament.

FFG Organized Play Employees are not abide to the guidelines described in the Organized Play document and may administer a different penalty on their discretion.

In other words, do as we say but not as we do?

9 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

I am not attacking you here, but please let me highlight these two points and see if I understand what you say.

Regular TOs are abide to the guidelines described in the Organized Play document and the only penalty they can administer is to disqualify/ remove a perpetrator from a tournament.

FFG Organized Play Employees are not abide to the guidelines described in the Organized Play document and may administer a different penalty on their discretion.

In other words, do as we say but not as we do?

Of course.

Do you really expect anything else from people who have the power to make rules?

... Really ?

I mean, that's the process. Basically, it boils down to how high you can "dob in" in that regard... You can't dob FFG in to FFG... They're FFG... But anyone who isn't FFG are subject to that Authority.

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Do you really expect anything else from people who have the power to make rules?

Cough......
Cough....
Buuullshrhrhrhrhrit....
Cough....
Cough....

On 12.5.2017 at 3:02 PM, Stoneface said:

With a small community like the OP stated, follow the official rules. The community will sort it out. The cheat will not find opponents to play against.

I don't think FFG has set any precedents, yet. We don't know what the end result will be. They very well may come up with a set of floor rules and official sanctions for similar situations. If they don't, then the precedent has been set.

Rules are not based on past rulings, but on written terms. Those say you can do whatever you want as a TO, which is exactly that the TO should do. Do whatever suits his game community from just a warning to a house ban, all legit options.

On 2017-05-15 at 5:37 AM, Marinealver said:

I think the biggest outrage is that in a previous FAQ such action was declared "Not to be tolerated".

Now again you could go into interpretation and ask what does zero tolerance mean? Forfeit a match, DQ, suspended? However as I stated in the thread below the whole zero tolerance policy on changing dials in activation phase without the use of an effect such as Boba Fet or Stay on Target has been abandoned.

I have personal experience in sending a video of someone changing their dia to FFG OP. They did nothing.