Currently we have an official ruling that says, "if you get caught changing your dials illegally during the activation phase, you will be granted a game loss".
Based on this ruling, what would prevent someone that is in a loosing game from changing his dials at any chance given?
They are already fighting a loosing battle and getting a game loss for changing their dials and possible turning the tables in their favor wont make their position any worst than it already is.
Is this kind of thing going to be left to peoples honesty and desire for fair play from now on?

Furthermore, as a TO in my small community of gamers I face a second problem. If I catch someone cheating like that, what am I supposed to do?
Follow the official ruling and give to the perpetrator a game loss, or go one step beyond the the official ruling and disqualify him from the tournament?
As much as I would love to take the second option, I consider myself bound the official rulings and will only grant a game loss.
I do not have the luxury to make my own rulings when there are official ones and risk being the bad guy on a power trip and start loosing players to that.

Regarding the recent incident, I firmly believe that the current ruling should not be amended or reverted.
I understand it was a hasty decision taken under pressure due to the cataclysmic flow of information.
Still, I beg for an official guideline that would discourage people from taking advantage of this precedent in the future.

Stop.

5 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Stop.

Could not resist

8 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Stop.

Yes. Please stop. I agree with TasteTheRainbow

They've already set a dangerous precedent by making crap like the Quadjumper and Auzituck instead of fixing some of the older ships.

Also where's the **** Gunboat already?

Beyond the hyperboles in the OP lies a valid point IMO: as a TO, in a similar situation, which official precedent do you follow? Game loss, or lengthy ban?

10 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Beyond the hyperboles in the OP lies a valid point IMO: as a TO, in a similar situation, which official precedent do you follow? Game loss, or lengthy ban?

Remember that time everyone took IDs? FFG went away, thought about it, and changed the rules. I'm sure if people are patient we'll get something official sooner rather than later.

I wouldn't expect a statement saying they're working to that end like last time though. No matter how outraged people are this was still one single incident during Swiss that in all probability (no offence to the guy who got cheated) had no bearing on the end result of the tournament, unlike the entire top 8 IDing going into the cut.

With a small community like the OP stated, follow the official rules. The community will sort it out. The cheat will not find opponents to play against.

I don't think FFG has set any precedents, yet. We don't know what the end result will be. They very well may come up with a set of floor rules and official sanctions for similar situations. If they don't, then the precedent has been set.

As there is no official ruling, only precedence, you are as TO at your own discretion here. I hate that that is how it is for now as it puts a lot of pressure on judges (which by the way is the reason why in the precedence case a bad call has been made), but you are the ultimate authority in your tournament.

1 hour ago, tsondaboy said:

Furthermore, as a TO in my small community of gamers I face a second problem.

If you're the TO/Judge then you can do whatever you feel is appropriate to deal with the situation. The fact that one Judge did something a given way doesn't mean all other Judges must rule the same way. The tournament rules are quite clear on this, the Marshal has final say in pretty much everything.

If someone tries to push back and because FFG did it differently, then tell them they're welcome to go play at a FFG tournament.

7 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

If you're the TO/Judge then you can do whatever you feel is appropriate to deal with the situation. The fact that one Judge did something a given way doesn't mean all other Judges must rule the same way. The tournament rules are quite clear on this, the Marshal has final say in pretty much everything.

If someone tries to push back and because FFG did it differently, then tell them they're welcome to go play at a FFG tournament.

Precisely how it works at present.

Your tournament, your call, your word is final.

3 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

If someone tries to push back and because FFG did it differently, then tell them they're welcome to go play at a FFG tournament.

This is the exact thing I am trying to avoid. Official rules and rulings is one of the few things that keep small groups coherent IMO. And to that point I have followed all official rules to the letter up to now. I definitely do not want to have people think this is "my tournament" and the best way not to have people think I treat it as such is to follow the official rules without deviation.

37 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

If they don't, then the precedent has been set.

When it comes to dealing with situations like this, there is no precedent, there is only the way a single person ruled in a single situation.

Again the tournament rules are quite clear on this point...

Quote

A marshal also determines if unsporting conduct has occurred and what the appropriate remedy is, referring any recommendations for disqualification to the organizer.

It also says that the Organizer must perform the responsibilities of the marshal role if one isn't appointed.

Loss, lose, and losing all have one O. J ust one.

Loose would be how tight you might tie a noose when forming a lynch mob.

1 minute ago, tsondaboy said:

Official rules and rulings is one of the few things that keep small groups coherent IMO.

But you're not dealing with official rules, the ruling a Judge makes about anything is not binding and doesn't set precedent... There's a lot of times a question about the interaction of different abilities comes up, and just because they rule one way at Worlds doesn't mean that will show up in the FAQ.

The only thing that really matters is the published rules, and they are quite clear about what you can do.

7 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

This is the exact thing I am trying to avoid. Official rules and rulings is one of the few things that keep small groups coherent IMO. And to that point I have followed all official rules to the letter up to now. I definitely do not want to have people think this is "my tournament" and the best way not to have people think I treat it as such is to follow the official rules without deviation.

And the official rules are that as a TO it's your tournament, your call, your word is final. It is your tournament - you bought the store kit, right?

The likelihood of this type of situation occurring in a local tournament is fairly low, but each situation will be different, depending on the nature of discovery. The "official ruling" in this case only applies to this particular situation and the events and information at hand. Assuming there is not a video stream, there are a few scenarios that you have to consider:

1) A player accuses another player of cheating. In this case, the TO would have to hear the details and determine if there is a case or any evidence to support the claim. If there is nothing conclusive, then the TO has to counsel the players and observe more closely what is happening. If there is evidence, like a stacked or incomplete damage deck, then the TO would have discretion to give the player a loss or kick him out of the tournament entirely. A lot depends on the nature of the offense.

2) The TO observes a player cheating. This should warrant calling attention to both players and stopping the game to address the problem. Determination must be made if something is due to ignorance of the rules (like doing the same action in one round) or circumventing the rules (as in trying to secretly change your maneuver dial.)

I think one thing that would help us all would be if FFG would elaborate on a number of issues, like pre-measuring, proper handling of dials after they are set, and addressing the best practices for handling rules issues. They could involve a number of respected players in the game to establish some guidelines, including recommendations for the number of marshalls needed based on the number of players involved in the tournament.

In several ways, this addresses itself. Players and TOs are aware of the recent problem and will be wary of how a player handles their dials. I would not be surprised to see local events establishing guidelines for play beyond what is written in the published documents from FFG. A good TO involves their players in this kind of thing and makes decisions that are best for the game.

This is also a call to TOs to make sure they are aware of the existing rules to be able to make decisions quickly. I recently printed out copies of the FFG documents and made a notebook for the store I play at to keep on hand for reference. In a lot of situations, this is quicker than trying to pull them up on a laptop, tablet, or smart phone.

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

And the official rules are that as a TO it's your tournament, your call, your word is final. It is your tournament - you bought the store kit, right?

But it's paid through player entry fees. It's the players' tournament and they deserve to be judged based on FFG's rules and precedents.

1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

But it's paid through player entry fees. It's the players' tournament and they deserve to be judged based on FFG's rules and precedents.

And FFG's rules are that TOs have final say in their tournaments.

1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

It's the players' tournament and they deserve to be judged based on FFG's rules and precedents.

They are, and FFG's rules say that the Marshal and TO have the final say on how to deal with situations like cheating. Judges/Marshals are naturally quite welcome to use other rulings to guide them, but per the rules it's up to them to make the final call.

Also, it's everyone's tournament and no one person has some special rights to attend or have a given experience. So if one person is disrupting the event and making the everyone else's experience worse than that situation must be dealt with.

In the end, it is the TO's decision he/she wields "UNLIMITED POWAHHHHH".

That said, this entire thread's discussion would be solved with a floor rules guideline furnished by FFG.

I really didn't want in this mess but I felt the need to point something out. Worlds is akin to the Olympics, hear me out, it is the top level of competition in a multi-national setting. The Olympic commitee has absolutely dealt with cheating in the past and their punishments have been severe from stripping medals to bans.

One thing that should be addressed and hasn't much is that in a global setting you embarace your country as much as yourself, hense the german gentleman's anger at the way this was handled. I also see many aggrivated at the public attacks on this guy but that is part of the punishment. Don't want these things to happen don't cheat it really is that simple.

Now obviously plastic toys do not have the fine history and tradition of the Olympic games but the analogy is sound and people have gotten death threats over Olympic cheating so yeah the severity is in context. Should it be dropped? In the long run yes but it should never be forgotten and to add to the insult I think the ruling they make on floor guidelines should be the Parker ruling just to drive home the penalty for this behavior.

6 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Worlds is akin to the Olympics

I like it lol

Why to overanalyze everything FFG does, it's actually pretty lame already!

10 hours ago, Timathius said:

In the end, it is the TO's decision he/she wields "UNLIMITED POWAHHHHH".

That said, this entire thread's discussion would be solved with a floor rules guideline furnished by FFG.

Yup, a guideline is what we need.
So that people are discouraged from cheating at official events and take away some of the heat from the local TOs.