because defensive powers are rare and harder to come by and offensive powers are easy and plentiful. Of all the defensive powers only force sense power and dodge create despair. and dodge is pretty spread out over a lot of trees getting to an additional rank in dodge will usually take a lot of xp There are several combats where 1-2 despair at the right time ends the combat in the players favor. A lot of people crap on triumph and despair and say they are not powerful or its only 8 ish % but trust me in a narriative game it really matters and with the ability to trigger it multiple times per round it is very powerful.

1 hour ago, amrothe said:

because defensive powers are rare and harder to come by and offensive powers are easy and plentiful. Of all the defensive powers only force sense power and dodge create despair. and dodge is pretty spread out over a lot of trees getting to an additional rank in dodge will usually take a lot of xp There are several combats where 1-2 despair at the right time ends the combat in the players favor. A lot of people crap on triumph and despair and say they are not powerful or its only 8 ish % but trust me in a narriative game it really matters and with the ability to trigger it multiple times per round it is very powerful.

Now I'm getting mixed signals. First it would be broken because dodge was not rare and hard to come by and reasonably easy to stack, which would be broken compared to the equivalent stacking of upgrades of the offensive variety.

And I'm not saying that they're not powerful, what I'm saying is that there are so many offensive boosts that adding a defensive boost to one species would not be unreasonable. To take the example I gave previously, 40XP gives 4 yellow die and one green compared to 55xp to get 2 red and one purple. I'm not saying that Triumph or Failure aren't strong, I'm looking at that disparity, and thinking to myself "That's why the most optimal choice is Auto-fire and try to kill everyone before you die". There's no meaningful defensive choices in the place of offensive ones.

Yes despair strong, but you either think triumph is weak, or that despair is unfathomably powerful with the way you see their comparative value. And I just can't wrap my head around that.

4 hours ago, Reylan Mass said:

Now I'm getting mixed signals. First it would be broken because dodge was not rare and hard to come by and reasonably easy to stack, which would be broken compared to the equivalent stacking of upgrades of the offensive variety.

And I'm not saying that they're not powerful, what I'm saying is that there are so many offensive boosts that adding a defensive boost to one species would not be unreasonable. To take the example I gave previously, 40XP gives 4 yellow die and one green compared to 55xp to get 2 red and one purple. I'm not saying that Triumph or Failure aren't strong, I'm looking at that disparity, and thinking to myself "That's why the most optimal choice is Auto-fire and try to kill everyone before you die". There's no meaningful defensive choices in the place of offensive ones.

Yes despair strong, but you either think triumph is weak, or that despair is unfathomably powerful with the way you see their comparative value. And I just can't wrap my head around that.

It's incredibly easy to get 3 ranks of dodge as a "close call" scar talent (scar talents are on the last 2 pages of forged in battle), especially if you engage in friendly sparring with a pc martial artist (so he can give you the critical hits you want to take).

14 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

It's incredibly easy to get 3 ranks of dodge as a "close call" scar talent (scar talents are on the last 2 pages of forged in battle), especially if you engage in friendly sparring with a pc martial artist (so he can give you the critical hits you want to take).

I'll have to try to find that book, thanks for the heads up. But I will say that sparring bit seems a bit...meta

Would you say that the game is still heavily offense-biased as it seems to be from examination? Would you agree with the assertion that allowing a defensive dice as a racial would be far more powerful than the offensive dice that are given for racial effects currently?

For me it's a stye difference. Some people like to turtle, and some like to deathblossom, if a defensive option holds the same space as an offensive option, then you've got a choice, and as long as the two are equal, it makes good gameplay.

Is a defensive upgrade that much more powerful than an offensive one in this system?

16 minutes ago, Reylan Mass said:

I'll have to try to find that book, thanks for the heads up. But I will say that sparring bit seems a bit...meta

Would you say that the game is still heavily offense-biased as it seems to be from examination? Would you agree with the assertion that allowing a defensive dice as a racial would be far more powerful than the offensive dice that are given for racial effects currently?

For me it's a stye difference. Some people like to turtle, and some like to deathblossom, if a defensive option holds the same space as an offensive option, then you've got a choice, and as long as the two are equal, it makes good gameplay.

Is a defensive upgrade that much more powerful than an offensive one in this system?

Currently there isn't much in the way of handing out offensive dice as a racial ability, you can take a starting skill rank or 2 (which long term does not elevate you above another character long term because they can just but skill ranks) or ocasional talent but not dice outright, I think there is a species on lords of nal Hutta that might get a rank of lethal blows (not sure my memory is accurate on this). And there are species with a base brawn of 3, but they can'take increase their brawn to a higher cap than a different species. And a species might get claws or tusks which is +1 damage. But to the best of my recollection, no species just gets bonus dice. If you want a bonus die to melee defense I would suggest giving them the (unranked) superior reflexes talent, which fits the theme of echani. But if this were me i'd probably go with an echani martial arts talent that lets the character use agility instead of brawn for melee and brawl checks (but leaves the base damage depending on brawn) and starting with 90 xp. I.e. what you previously proposed except leaving out lightsaber to not step on the toes of the aturu technique talent.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Currently there isn't much in the way of handing out offensive dice as a racial ability, you can take a starting skill rank or 2 (which long term does not elevate you above another character long term because they can just but skill ranks) or ocasional talent but not dice outright, I think there is a species on lords of nal Hutta that might get a rank of lethal blows (not sure my memory is accurate on this).

I think I phrased it wrong when I said buy dice. Maybe this will be better. Dodge is basically a defensive skill rank. Actually, from a mechanical perspective, it's identical to a defensive skill rank that costs both strain and experience to make use of. So while offensive skill ranks (Brawl, melee, Ranged, Ect..) are available and prevalent as Racial traits, their defensive versions are not as easy to acquire. Especially as I can decide that my offensive pool will start with 4 dice, as I'm going to invest in 4 brawn or agility, but defensive dice pools are determined by attack type.

And to be honest, that may be fine, but its a bit of a culture shock when my previous tabletop experience was with the saga system And glass cannon systems tend to be degenerative when maximized, which makes me nervous.

1 hour ago, Reylan Mass said:

I think I phrased it wrong when I said buy dice. Maybe this will be better. Dodge is basically a defensive skill rank. Actually, from a mechanical perspective, it's identical to a defensive skill rank that costs both strain and experience to make use of. So while offensive skill ranks (Brawl, melee, Ranged, Ect..) are available and prevalent as Racial traits, their defensive versions are not as easy to acquire. Especially as I can decide that my offensive pool will start with 4 dice, as I'm going to invest in 4 brawn or agility, but defensive dice pools are determined by attack type.

And to be honest, that may be fine, but its a bit of a culture shock when my previous tabletop experience was with the saga system And glass cannon systems tend to be degenerative when maximized, which makes me nervous.

It's not hard to go down in FFG star wars, but it's really hard for PCs to actually die.

29 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

It's not hard to go down in FFG star wars, but it's really hard for PCs to actually die.

That kind of goes hand in hand with the ease of access to offensive options but not so much defensive ones. It's what's most often the cause for degenerative gameplay in systems.

Part of why a defensive option seemed interesting here.

1 minute ago, Reylan Mass said:

That kind of goes hand in hand with the ease of access to offensive options but not so much defensive ones. It's what's most often the cause for degenerative gameplay in systems.

Part of why a defensive option seemed interesting here.

I actually think that FFG gets the relative strengths of offense and defense right or at least a lot better than Saga (don't get me wrong, I thing Saga was the best d20 system [I haven't played D&D next]). High level combats in saga take forever and a day, FFG combats are generally over in 3 to 4 rounds. A storm trooper minion group is a threat to anyone in FFG but dies at about the right speed. what you're probably not taking into account is that FFG star wars is a lot less random than saga. The number of successes are pretty small compared the base damage of blaster carbine (8), while in Saga a 3d8 blaster carbine could be anywhere from 3 to 24 (before you consider attributes, feats, talents, and critical hits). Because damage, soak, etc and pierce (to discount soak without increasing max damage) the rate at which some PC goes down is pretty predictable compared to saga, and it seems to be calibrated around 3-4 rounds, luck die rolling could make it 2 rounds, or overwhelming numbers or an min maxed build could do the same, or an optimized defensive build might let you stay up 4-5 round on average. The point is that maximizing defense isn't as important because you don't need as much protection against flukey dice rolls.

4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

The point is that maximizing defense isn't as important because you don't need as much protection against flukey dice rolls.

Fair enough, not as important, but would you feel it was unduly powerful as it was described earlier?

4 minutes ago, Reylan Mass said:

Fair enough, not as important, but would you feel it was unduly powerful as it was described earlier?

One rank of dodge is usually inconsequential, it'll change a purple to a red... not that big a deal considering the attack that would have almost certainly hit will still almost certainly hit for about the same amount of damage. If you have 3 ranks of dodge that means you'd be changing 2 purples to a red (so about a 50% chance of a despair coming up in a 3 round combat) and adding a purple, and that starts to have a noticeable impact on the statistics, but that means you spent 3 strain each for 3 rounds, or 9 strain, so that's pretty darn balanced in my book (not overpowered).

Personally, dodge really becomes worthwhile if and only if you have the sense force power with the double defense upgrades, then you can commit a force die and spend 1 strain as needed to get your 2 red 1 purple pool.

The "coordination dodge" talent is a whole other ball of wax, it allows you to potentially add 5 failures to an incoming attack roll at will. That's Hella powerful, and I would not allow it as a species trait in my game.

But really, if you want to have a noticeable impact on the stats, you need to pile on black dice with talents like superior reflexes, moving target, etc. Armor with defense or gear with the defensive trait.

If you want a meaningful defensive impact give them the superior reflexes talent. That's useful, gives the echani a leg up over other species, but I think that's a lot more game changing (i'd be more afraid to allow it in my game, i'd probably let them try it out on the condition that if it got out of hand it'd be revoked) than an echani matrial arts talent that let's the character use agility in place of brawn for melee and beawl. Seriously, the most positive impact of the attribute substitution talent is that it gives a ranged character a better than average melee/brawl back up attack that is worse noticably worse than a dedicated brawler/melee-er and significantly worse than your primary attack so it's really a lot better to not use your melee/brawl back up attack if you can avoid it.

4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

But really, if you want to have a noticeable impact on the stats, you need to pile on black dice with talents like superior reflexes, moving target, etc. Armor with defense or gear with the defensive trait.

Ok this is what I was thinking. Was going for something that would have an effect, but be not be dominant. Which I feel is appropriate for an innate racial when compared to the others that are available. If this is the case I feel like I've got a pretty good idea for the system now and a better idea of the effect economy in the system.

This was a useful discussion, thanks for the help.

3 minutes ago, Reylan Mass said:

Ok this is what I was thinking. Was going for something that would have an effect, but be not be dominant. Which I feel is appropriate for an innate racial when compared to the others that are available. If this is the case I feel like I've got a pretty good idea for the system now and a better idea of the effect economy in the system.

This was a useful discussion, thanks for the help.

For a racial ability, superior reflexes gets you 1 black die and it's worth at least 25 xp (it's a bottom row talent) and i'd recommend 30 xp since you don't have to buy through prerequisites to get it. If you want to go this route for a character you play in game, then I recommend starting as soldier:vanguard the spec has a bunch of bodyguard related talents (which I think are appropriate to an echani) and at least 2 copies of the moving target talent, which add a black dice to your defense (might be ranged only) as long as you've already acted that round. 2 ranks of rapid reaction, dynamic fire, and "seize the initiative" which once per game session for one round only let's all of your allies act on your initiative slot instead of on their own (use it in the first round of a big fight, you take the teams top slot, and all the PCs could go before all the NPCs, which will let you thin out/reduce the number of NPCs that are still alive to act on their turn, the equivalent of swat throwing a flashbang in the room at the start of a coordinated takedown). Totally awesome spec. I've got a devaronian gunslinger vanguard npc named inigo Montoya (pirates loosely based of characters from "the princess bride". I wanted to give my PCs a *fair* fight (one that they have a serious/even chance of losing)

My Star Wars characters for, really, anything are either a Miraluka Jedi or Zeltron Bounty Hunter, so I probably won't be running an Echani. This was to get a feel for the system more than anything else, and if both of those species were already done I'd have found two others to do.

But that Vanguard sounds nuts though.

9 hours ago, Reylan Mass said:

My Star Wars characters for, really, anything are either a Miraluka Jedi or Zeltron Bounty Hunter, so I probably won't be running an Echani. This was to get a feel for the system more than anything else, and if both of those species were already done I'd have found two others to do.

But that Vanguard sounds nuts though.

For a zeltron, try the falleen from I think fly casual and boost the low Stat (I think cunning or willpower) and just refluff/reskin/call it a zeltron (falleen have pheromones too).

If the vanguard didn't "waste" talents on the bodyguard stuff (I'm "selfish"/self-interested like that), or it was easy to get to the dedication (without buying through some expensive bodyguard stuff) it'd be one of my *favorite* (as in I still think it's pretty darn cool) specs. Right now demolitionist and martial artist take my top spots for not force sensitive favorites. By the waya gank bounty hunter:operator/squadron-leader makes for a really awesome pilot. Probably the best in the game long term. Gank because their cyborgs and the agility increasing cybernetic arm and that other cybernetic implant that gives you a free rank in pilot space and planetary as long as you have at least 1 normal rank in them (so your base pool could eventually be 6 yellow and 1 green, admittedly you could do this with any species but it makes the most narrative sense for ganks for whom cybering up is expected normal behavior while for everyone else it's abhorrent behavior) Operator because of the offensive driving talent, squadron leader because it has 2 ranks of defensive driving and combining offensive driving and defensive driving is totally awesome.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

For a zeltron, try the falleen from I think fly casual and boost the low Stat (I think cunning or willpower) and just refluff/reskin/call it a zeltron (falleen have pheromones too).

There's a pretty good Zeltron attempt from the unofficial species menagerie that was included in the Oggdude character creator so that's what I've been using. It will probably be the character that's used in this system, as neutral Force users don't seem to fit in when you take conflict into account, so my Miraluka would be a no-go.