1 hour ago, Stevey86 said:

You've seen the Jumpmaster right?

You think they playtest? ?

I think they do. I just doubt that they playtest for balance, they might playtest to sell more expansions and imperial veterans and the raider sold well enough. ;-)
(This is a joke, Hanlon's Razor does apply)

1 hour ago, Stevey86 said:

You've seen the Jumpmaster right?

You think they playtest? ?

This is the obvious retort that I think we all can agree with, but.....

2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

I think they do. I just doubt that they playtest for balance, they might playtest to sell more expansions and imperial veterans and the raider sold well enough. ;-)
(This is a joke, Hanlon's Razor does apply)

I've read (on this forum and another) that the designers at FFG actually were not involved in play-testing the Jumpmaster, but it was 'outside play-testers' exclusively. Perhaps this dovetailed with the fact that they were getting a lot of heat from Scum players that their ships were under-performing and I also think orders and sales of those models (save the Starviper/Autothrusters) was lagging way behind the other faction's ships. Seems it was a perfect storm for letting potentially game-powerful details slide. These are not facts, they are just some regurgitated blather that is in my head, so....with a grain of salt my friends, with a grain of salt.

Actually most wanted seem to have sold rather well and the crackshot expansion was sold out multiple times, outselling the autothruster expansion by large margins.

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

Actually most wanted seem to have sold rather well and the crackshot expansion was sold out multiple times, outselling the autothruster expansion by large margins.

To be fair, thats only because you only needed 1 Autothruster exapansion (Max2) over upto 6 Crackshot to get your 100/6 full amount

11 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

This is the obvious retort that I think we all can agree with, but.....

I've read (on this forum and another) that the designers at FFG actually were not involved in play-testing the Jumpmaster, but it was 'outside play-testers' exclusively. Perhaps this dovetailed with the fact that they were getting a lot of heat from Scum players that their ships were under-performing and I also think orders and sales of those models (save the Starviper/Autothrusters) was lagging way behind the other faction's ships. Seems it was a perfect storm for letting potentially game-powerful details slide. These are not facts, they are just some regurgitated blather that is in my head, so....with a grain of salt my friends, with a grain of salt.

Also add to that the fact that big ship generics were seeing little to no use, with the Outer Rim Smuggler being notoriously bad, it is easy to see how the Contracted Scout came out so good as a way to not repeat past mistakes. Sadly, data points to them over doing it.

13 minutes ago, Shockwave said:

To be fair, thats only because you only needed 1 Autothruster exapansion (Max2) over upto 6 Crackshot to get your 100/6 full amount

There is another crackshot in the YV-666, which seems to be ignored by most crack swarm players for unknown reasons. °_^
And to be fair, you need 2 autothruster expansions for a fun triple aces list … at least if you keep Vader at home … my first tournament list in April 2016, Imperial Aces, The Inqusitor's TIE. Those autothrusters and steal devices were a small fortune compared to the rest of the list.

edit: Though I had a of fun on that tournament with basically everyone else flying jumpmasters and cursing my dice and autothrusters. ;-)

17 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Actually most wanted seem to have sold rather well and the crackshot expansion was sold out multiple times, outselling the autothruster expansion by large margins.

Ah...OK, salt yep. Well, our LGS wasn't moving Scum save Starvipers....so, local 411 only there.

15 minutes ago, Shockwave said:

To be fair, thats only because you only needed 1 Autothruster exapansion (Max2) over upto 6 Crackshot to get your 100/6 full amount

Was that the Karaxeraxerax?

8 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Also add to that the fact that big ship generics were seeing little to no use, with the Outer Rim Smuggler being notoriously bad, it is easy to see how the Contracted Scout came out so good as a way to not repeat past mistakes. Sadly, data points to them over doing it.

Yes, it's so obvious, true.....it was an obvious apology kinda thing; way overboard.

When I said sold out, I mean globally, the K-Fighter went indeed into reprint runs.

15 hours ago, Thormind said:

- All ships with a combination of hull/shield lower than 4 are allowed to roll their agility dices to counter bomb damage. The number of defense dices rolled cannot exceed the total potential damage of a bomb. For example if a bomb can do at the most 1 damage, the ship is allowed 1 defense die. Once rolled, all defense dices cannot be modified or canceled.

That's a pretty bad idea, sorry. 2 factions have neither Sabine nor Slam-action, no reason to bash on the bombs.

Bombs range from 2-5pts, the better ones at 4+.

With your proposal against small ships with a 3/8 risk both the bomber's maneuvring (and now potentially risky new place) and the expensive point cost for the bombs have been thrown out of the window. There are also 2 bombs which are specifically good against small ship swarms (ion, proton), this would make them much worse.

17 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Yeah, I kinda can see that. But here's two thoughts to ponder: 1) I may be incorrect, but I don't think Emperial ships outclass in stats or abilities their similar Rebel counterparts (typical ships Biggs escorts), yet they have no Biggs green dice/shields/hull upgrade option; and 2) I would contend Imperial ships/crew post-Palp were created with his abilities in mind, yet they nerfed him anyway. Maybe that's why we see the resulting drop-off and what we might see if Biggs were nerfed?

I'll try and share my thoughts on these points but they are pre-faced by this disclaimer: This is just my opinion formed from my observations as a player over a few years with a wide experience in X-wing from high level tournaments to HotAC, it is not necessarily correct, factual or even agreeable. I'm also pretty bad at actually translating the whirlwind in my brain into words so apologies is it's a bit haphazard.

1. The X-wing designers knew they had painted themselves into a corner with Biggs a bit from the early days. It's unlikely they'd feel the need to add another similar ability to the Imps arsenal for design space reasons. Other thing to consider is the marked differences in playstyle between Imps and Rebels in the early days. The Imperials answers to Biggs were TIE swarms (just pure jousting efficiency) and not getting shot (arc dodgers). They made efforts to separate the factions not just visually but in play style. To have just made Rebels and Imperials have the same types of units would have been a very bland landscape to get people in on a new game. Rebels were designed to be able to take a hit or two and still swing the haymaker but Imps were designed to dodge and weave using jabs to wear their opponent down. Biggs is the ultimate "take the hit" tool. It stops Wedge or Luke taking the hit before they swing the haymaker. With the introduction of the Lambda, a ship that didn't fit the Imps playstyle and was clearly not able to dodge and weave; they introduced the closest thing to a Biggs ability the Imps have. Captain Kagi. This is still a very powerful ability; it doesn't control your targeting options but it does control your action use. The main difference though is the chassis and price. Biggs is cheaper and has the chance to get some shots off before he dies where as the Lambda is a space cow. It just sits there and grazes whilst it gets outflanked and burnt down. If this ability was on another ship I think we have our Imperial Biggs but the ability is just not strong enough to compensate for the deficiencies of the frame; unlike Biggs. I know I'm rambling a bit here but I guess my point is Kagi=closest thing to Imp biggs and it doesn't work because the Lambda can't formation fly with TIE's. Other Imp ships always specialised in not getting shot or out jousting. Also interesting to note the game designers have said in various interviews that the TIE Fighter was better than the X-Wing; they feel that from day 1 the TIE's were simply better value for points so may well have had that in mind whilst developing pilot abilities etc. (Pure speculation on that last bit).

2. I honestly think part of the drop off in Imps is that reason entirely. Palp was what was reducing the variance for a high variance faction in a world of auto damage and ALL the dice. Imps have been having a hard time with high AGI low health ships in a world where AGI becomes less important as auto-damage is rife. The current meta does not favour the Imps very well and Palp was about the best tool they had to reduce that variance they live and die by. Biggs is the sacrificial pawn that stops the queen getting taken early game in a world full of auto damage and all the dice. Now people are already moving away from Biggs due to things like Rauboats torping other ships and bypassing Biggs. Rebel lists seem to be moving more towards Jess/Ashoka and the like. Captured TIE is also really powerful when combined with Scavenger crane. Controlling who you can't shoot is part of what Biggs does. So does Ashoka. Jess is a good replacement too because you now give your opponent a tough choice; ignore her and allow all the re-rolls or try and put her down first whilst she has all the re-rolls. Rebel lists are still using control elements and action efficiency to do what Biggs and support ships have always done for Rebels. I'm not sure we'd see a drop off like we did with the Imps as people are already moving with the meta to cover for Biggs weakness. I do believe we'd see a lot more Ashoka and Jess to fill the gaps though. I'm not sure nerfing Biggs would change much in the overall meta but I do feel it would leave chunks of the Rebel arsenal feeling a little underwhelmed. I guess what I'm trying to say is the meta moves as people adapt to the threats they face, Biggs is being countered as it is in a lot of lists. I get it; he's annoying as hell if you're not prepared but then so are torp boats, mindlink lists, TLT's, Dash etc. Imps just don't have some of the counters to Biggs and mindlink or other heavy meta contenders that the other 2 factions do. Good flying will only account for so much at a high level event where pressure, fatigue and sometimes just a little bad luck can make or break your chances. I think Imps CAN still win but it takes a lot of mental effort and a bit of luck; which over a 3 day event is a lot of effort. Lists like Mindlink or Kanan/Biggs are easier to play than most Imp lists so people go for whats less taxing as they want to win. TL:DR - Not sure we'd see the rebel drop off but I'm pretty sure we'd see a narrowing of viable options.

It's nice to have a sensible conversation about this sort of thing. The forums and FB groups get a bit heated at times. I'd be keen to hear your musings on these points too.

12 minutes ago, Smutpedler said:

It's nice to have a sensible conversation about this sort of thing

How dare you bring sense in here!

Nerf everything!

Buff the X-Wing!

GUNBOAT!

NERF ORANGE BASES!

3 hours ago, Smutpedler said:

I'll try and share my thoughts on these points but they are pre-faced by this disclaimer: This is just my opinion formed from my observations as a player over a few years with a wide experience in X-wing from high level tournaments to HotAC, it is not necessarily correct, factual or even agreeable. I'm also pretty bad at actually translating the whirlwind in my brain into words so apologies is it's a bit haphazard.

((great thoughts, please see original post above, edited for space))

It's nice to have a sensible conversation about this sort of thing. The forums and FB groups get a bit heated at times. I'd be keen to hear your musings on these points too.

Very well typed. Intelligence and sensibility are fine traits sir. Your specific experience may be drawn from different paths than mine, but I to have viewed the same landscape. It seems the original design intent of the game, born of and drenched in the original movie cannon lore, has run up against some of the designers game-space explorations and subsequent balancing issues and the FFG crew has found themselves wanting. It seems to me that they have been in a kind of 'punting mode' and are now resigned themselves into abandoning the heart of the game in its mechanics, attempting to give it new life through destroying its childhood. All recent releases and indications of future expansions indicate their inability to hold the line; factions are being watered-down in uniqueness and are, in many instances, gaining the same tools (the TIE/SF, Protectorate, Stolen TIE, and Aggressor come quickly to mind). I think most players clearly see this new direction if they chose to admit it or care to even ponder it. As for me, I've recognized it for quite a while, and I think it unwise at best.

3 hours ago, Smutpedler said:

NERF ORANGE BASES!

Come on! I just bought three sets of orange bases...

22 minutes ago, Arthur_McGuire said:

Come on! I just bought three sets of orange bases...

At least you didn't buy green. Those are DOA I got some orange bases at a narrative event a few weeks back in a goody bag the organisers gave out and gave them a spin at an escalation tourney last weekend. Ended up winning the tourney and the orange base thing has become a bit of a joke between myself and @Stevey86 since then.

31 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Very well typed. Intelligence and sensibility are fine traits sir. Your specific experience may be drawn from different paths than mine, but I to have viewed the same landscape. It seems the original design intent of the game, born of and drenched in the original movie cannon lore, has run up against some of the designers game-space explorations and subsequent balancing issues and the FFG crew has found themselves wanting. It seems to me that they have been in a kind of 'punting mode' and are now resigned themselves into abandoning the heart of the game in its mechanics, attempting to give it new life through destroying its childhood. All recent releases and indications of future expansions indicate their inability to hold the line; factions are being watered-down in uniqueness and are, in many instances, gaining the same tools (the TIE/SF, Protectorate, Stolen TIE, and Aggressor come quickly to mind). I think most players clearly see this new direction if they chose to admit it or care to even ponder it. As for me, I've recognized it for quite a while, and I think it unwise at best.

Thank you for your kind words on my drivel I'm honestly a bit confused about the current design direction. The last few waves haven't really excited me much but FFG have snuck a few crackers in there that have brought some genuinely interesting options to the game. On the whole though; I fully agree with your sentiment about how the factions are being a bit watered down in their respective uniqueness. It's not a direction I particularly like either but I can only see a small bit of the road ahead so I'm placing my faith in FFG (for better or for worse) to not invalidate everything I've spent money on so far. This may or may not prove to be wise but I've done a fair bit of work with other local players to build up a really decent X-Wing community locally so I'd hate to see that all go the dogs.

8 hours ago, Managarmr said:

That's a pretty bad idea, sorry. 2 factions have neither Sabine nor Slam-action, no reason to bash on the bombs.

Bombs range from 2-5pts, the better ones at 4+.

With your proposal against small ships with a 3/8 risk both the bomber's maneuvring (and now potentially risky new place) and the expensive point cost for the bombs have been thrown out of the window. There are also 2 bombs which are specifically good against small ship swarms (ion, proton), this would make them much worse.

I should have been more clear, sorry. Some of the changes i suggest don't need to apply at the same time. For example if SLAM and TLTs get fixed, there would be no need to modify Miranda. Same for Sabine, if she's fixed there is no need to modify most other bombs.

About your last point: Swarms are already in a bad position. Is there really a need for such an aggressive counters?

6 hours ago, Smutpedler said:

NERF ORANGE BASES!

Oh, please. Orange bases are fine. It's those purple bases that are OP.

Pshhh this used to be a clear bases forum only! Back in my day....

49 minutes ago, ZoraTheHutt said:

Pshhh this used to be a clear bases forum only! Back in my day....

Clear bases were obviously underperforming and need a buff to bring them back in line with the power creep of the colored bases

You've lost in the list building phase if you bring clear bases to a major event. Problem is any further buff will just buff the clear pegs too; which is unthinkable.

I'd errata the Mindlink to give Stress to all linked ships whether they have one or not.

If you can get twice as focused why not twice as panicked?

22 minutes ago, Mef82 said:

I'd errata the Mindlink to give Stress to all linked ships whether they have one or not.

If you can get twice as focused why not twice as panicked?

You can only get twice as focused by being given a focus token after mindlink already gave you one. Similarly, you can get twice as stressed by being given a stress after mindlink already gave you one. It's exactly the same right now. If all stress should get passed, then all focus tokens should too

I'd give the HWK-290 +1 atk and not change it's squad point cost at all.

I to like to live dangerously.

Good thing OP is not in charge of the FAQ. The major problem with the FAQs now these days is that they are focusing on balance and not rule integrity. Hence dialgate was one of the results of inconstant FAQ updates.

3 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

I'd give the HWK-290 +1 atk and not change it's squad point cost at all.

I to like to live dangerously.

I honestly don't think that would break anything.