TIE fighters are OP. Please nerf.

I'm far in favor of lowering the ceiling than raising the floor. Tie fighters should always be relevant, and not just the crackswarm, but the 8 tie swarm as well. That's the ultimate standard for rewarding great flying with brain melting concentration. It doesn't even come close to comparing where we are now with easily obtainable 3-4 double-modded red dice and green dice negation.

Also, a tie "fix" made by adding another upgrade slot just means more to buy. There are other ships that need this treatment too. How about phantoms, kihraxz, Bs, and Ys without TLT or stressbots? There is no reason there should only be 1 pilot per expansion worth fielding.

I argue that this game needs to be dialed back to the point where there is reason to put generics on the table. Ace-wing is great, but it also heavily emphasizes consistancy. A little consistency is probably a good thing, but varience and solid flying is what makes this game so much fun to play and watch. Extreme cost efficient consistency is a cancer to these games.

Which is also why blinded pilot should stay .

3 hours ago, atkrull said:

I like the idea of getting rid of all nerfs, give me back good ole palapatine and decloak at activation and you will see the empire roar back

The "nerfed" decloak is actually better against bombs. Means a lower PS bomber cna't just fly over wherever you happent o be, they have to account for the 3 different places you can end up from decloaking.

2 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

I'd lower blaster turret cost by 1 and remove the token spend requirement.

I'm all for buffing blaster turret

2 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Increase PTL cost by 1 or 2.

PTL doesn't need a nerf. It's hardly OP nowadays.

2 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Increase VI cost by 1.

If you do this, Adaptability needs to go up to 1 point

2 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Each TLT shot is a separate attack and can proc effects, also the first shot uses up blinded pilot so you can still fire the second shot.

Attaini mindlink can be used by all factions.

Just what everyone wants, MORE mindlink.

2 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Playing a TLT hwk and losing your entire attack due to blinded pilot is the biggest NPE I have ever experienced in this game. That's how.

EVERYONE loses their entire attack due to blinded pilot. Why should TLT be the exception?

2 hours ago, Keffisch said:

Nope, you said:

Imperials didn't take the hardest hit, the Paratanni archetype did (and thus Scum). :)

Paratanni didn't take the hardest hit. The exact paratanni build made top 16 at worlds. And a variant with a scout instead of manaroo made top 8. If anything, Dengaroo took the hardest hit, but it was already out of vogue by then anyway. Commonwealth defenders took a way harder hit than paratanni with palp AND x7 both getting nerfed. Also, scum had plenty of other option.

2 hours ago, Keffisch said:

Also, whereas you can't play Paratanni in its original form, you can still use Defenders, you can still use Palp, but with Scum being the top dog currently, and rebels being back to employing Stress/Control (thank god there's no regen on top of that). There's very little point in doing so, until a card comes out that makes the TIE/D viable.

See above about paratanni in the top 16 at worlds. You know what wasn't there? Defenders. Palp made it at least.

37 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I see 0 mention of the imperial faction... why?

- Attani: just make it a free focus action.

Kills the card

37 minutes ago, Thormind said:

-ALL ships with a regular front arc primary weapon, 2 attack dices and no secondary weapon upgrade can roll an extra attack die after reroll and modification. That die cannot be modified in any way.

TIE swarms don't need all the ships to get an extra attack die, thanks, even if it cna't be modified.

37 minutes ago, Thormind said:

- All ships with a combination of hull/shield lower than 4 are allowed to roll their agility dices to counter bomb damage. The number of defense dices rolled cannot exceed the total potential damage of a bomb. For example if a bomb can do at the most 1 damage, the ship is allowed 1 defense die. Once rolled, all defense dices cannot be modified or canceled.

Why not just make it all ships period? The higher health stuff tends to have lower agility anyway.

37 minutes ago, Thormind said:

-Tie/X7: New text changed to "After doing a 3-4 or 5 speed maneuver, if you did not overlap an obstacle, you may assign 1 evade token to your ship"

No

37 minutes ago, Thormind said:

-Palpatine: New text changed to: "Once per round, you may change a friendly ship's die result to any other dice result. If used on a defense or attack die, it must be done before reroll and modifications. That die result cannot be changed again."

No. This is basically old palp

2 minutes ago, Test Pilot said:

I'm far in favor of lowering the ceiling than raising the floor. Tie fighters should always be relevant, and not just the crackswarm, but the 8 tie swarm as well. That's the ultimate standard for rewarding great flying with brain melting concentration. It doesn't even come close to comparing where we are now with easily obtainable 3-4 double-modded red dice and green dice negation.

Also, a tie "fix" made by adding another upgrade slot just means more to buy. There are other ships that need this treatment too. How about phantoms, kihraxz, Bs, and Ys without TLT or stressbots? There is no reason there should only be 1 pilot per expansion worth fielding.

I argue that this game needs to be dialed back to the point where there is reason to put generics on the table. Ace-wing is great, but it also heavily emphasizes consistancy. A little consistency is probably a good thing, but varience and solid flying is what makes this game so much fun to play and watch. Extreme cost efficient consistency is a cancer to these games.

Which is also why blinded pilot should stay .

Solid flying, yes. Variance turning that solid flying into disappointment and wasted potential, not so much.

36 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Or you can raise the floor to better keep in step with the new design space. I have more confidence in the design of things that came out in the mid waves than I do the early ones, so the idea of using those early waves as the design standard seems to discount the lessons and new ideas that X-Wing has had over it's life.

^This.

We shouldn't try to nerf everything until Expose or Elusiveness are 'good'. The early game was designed without the prior knowledge that it would become the most popular mini game on the market and have a massive competitive scene. I much prefer the mid to later wave design ethos.

1 minute ago, Test Pilot said:

I'm far in favor of lowering the ceiling than raising the floor. Tie fighters should always be relevant, and not just the crackswarm, but the 8 tie swarm as well. That's the ultimate standard for rewarding great flying with brain melting concentration. It doesn't even come close to comparing where we are now with easily obtainable 3-4 double-modded red dice and green dice negation.

Also, a tie "fix" made by adding another upgrade slot just means more to buy. There are other ships that need this treatment too. How about phantoms, kihraxz, Bs, and Ys without TLT or stressbots? There is no reason there should only be 1 pilot per expansion worth fielding.

I argue that this game needs to be dialed back to the point where there is reason to put generics on the table. Ace-wing is great, but it also heavily emphasizes consistancy. A little consistency is probably a good thing, but varience and solid flying is what makes this game so much fun to play and watch. Extreme cost efficient consistency is a cancer to these games.

Which is also why blinded pilot should stay .

Blinded pilot should have a condition card where you roll x dice and for each combination of results you have to follow that condition during activation... from random maneuvers to random actions. Because you're a blind pilot flailing around a cockpit hitting all sorts of buttons inadvertently in your panicked state. Heck, include one result where you roll 1 attack die against each ship in your firing arc and range regardless of friendly or foe. That's my idea of a blind pilot.

3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Solid flying, yes. Variance turning that solid flying into disappointment and wasted potential, not so much.

This game uses dice. Variance is a key element coupled with practice and solid decision making. The main complaints we see this last year have to do with consistency upgrades. TLT, Mindlink, Sabine Bombs, Palp, X7, Zukuss, and I'm sure there are others. Consistency is the theme in every one of these calls for nerfs.

Embrace the variance! Make green dice great again!

11 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

^This.

We shouldn't try to nerf everything until Expose or Elusiveness are 'good'. The early game was designed without the prior knowledge that it would become the most popular mini game on the market and have a massive competitive scene. I much prefer the mid to later wave design ethos.

I'm not suggesting nerfing to wave 1 Xwing level. (or goodness forbid, wave 2 Awing level) The Tie Fighter standard has been lip service for several waves now, but it IS an already accepted standard.

15 minutes ago, Test Pilot said:

This game uses dice. Variance is a key element coupled with practice and solid decision making. The main complaints we see this last year have to do with consistency upgrades. TLT, Mindlink, Sabine Bombs, Palp, X7, Zukuss, and I'm sure there are others. Consistency is the theme in every one of these calls for nerfs.

Embrace the variance! Make green dice great again!

Oh, I wish fickle were still around to answer that last line.

If you notice, top lists are about reducing variance, not trusting it. Aside from Sabine bombs (which removes green dice entirely), I have no problem with the other stuff (though Zuckess is probably more in line with his point cost now).

Varience can negate good flying because that range one shot you perfectly positioned for and executed? All for nothing because you rolled (and even rerolled) blanks.

Varience isn't a strength, it is an obsitcle. A fickle mistress that can come to your favor, but mostly leads to distraction. Now, I'm not saying dice should be cut. They are a built in obstacle to be overcome.

13 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

... but it IS an already accepted standard.

Proof? And proof that it should remain as such, despite becoming obsolete?

1 hour ago, Smutpedler said:

I think that's different because everything since the Core set has been designed with Biggs in mind . Remove the design datum and you have a mess of a faction. If Biggs were a relatively new addition that would be a different story. Every Rebel ship and ability has been designed with Biggs in mind where as a huge chunk of the Imperial arsenal existed before Palp.

As I said earlier too; I think there are plenty of tools to deal with Biggs these days. If he's a heavy contender in your meta; pack some tools for the job

Yeah, I kinda can see that. But here's two thoughts to ponder: 1) I may be incorrect, but I don't think Emperial ships outclass in stats or abilities their similar Rebel counterparts (typical ships Biggs escorts), yet they have no Biggs green dice/shields/hull upgrade option; and 2) I would contend Imperial ships/crew post-Palp were created with his abilities in mind, yet they nerfed him anyway. Maybe that's why we see the resulting drop-off and what we might see if Biggs were nerfed?

IA brought the Xwing up to Bwing level efficency, which was comparable to the Tie Fighter standard. The Khilrazx was an alternate Xwing buff, also to about the same power level. The Heavy Scyk erratta brings it into the same range. Awings, imperial aces, even post LWF punishers are in the same rough power level.

Scum is not playing at that power level. Jumpmasters, attani, old zuckuss crew, old manaru... there's more, but it's easier to clear out the top until we get down to everything else.

5 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

IA brought the Xwing up to Bwing level efficency, which was comparable to the Tie Fighter standard. The Khilrazx was an alternate Xwing buff, also to about the same power level. The Heavy Scyk erratta brings it into the same range. Awings, imperial aces, even post LWF punishers are in the same rough power level.

Scum is not playing at that power level. Jumpmasters, attani, old zuckuss crew, old manaru... there's more, but it's easier to clear out the top until we get down to everything else.

That sounds more like supposition rather than data. Also, it's not just scum. Biggs, Miranda, Stresshog, some Ghost builds, Dash, Corran, Jess Pava, Norra, and Braylen are competing on that level.

Just now, SabineKey said:

That sounds more like supposition rather than data. Also, it's not just scum. Biggs, Miranda, Stresshog, some Ghost builds, Dash, Corran, Jess Pava, Norra, and Braylen are competing on that level.

you'll notice my post of things I would nerf includes biggs, the turret used by miranda, stresshog and some ghosts, and corran/nora's favorite droid.

4 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

you'll notice my post of things I would nerf includes biggs, the turret used by miranda, stresshog and some ghosts, and corran/nora's favorite droid.

So more and more stuff are showing up on the upper scale. Seems to me there is a lot of work going either direction, so let's go with the one that isn't obsolete.

Yeah, not really sure if this is what we need. There is reason that FFG has development department for play testing stuff before they do changes to game, all though sometimes it feels that they do sloppy things there but usually they do good job. And there is reason that we don't do nerfs or other changes to the game, because we are not doing any testing.

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

So more and more stuff are showing up on the upper scale. Seems to me there is a lot of work going either direction, so let's go with the one that isn't obsolete.

Not really. 4 jumpmaster pilots, 1 scum only action efficency card, 1 droid that's defined an architype since the boxed set, 1 pilot that has defined rebel listbuilding since the boxed set. (In addition to what FFG has already done to zuckuss, manaru, palp and x7.) I throw in a very minor "do you really want to use this this turn" on Advance Slam, but sabine might also need review if bombs in general get a multi faction buff.

1 minute ago, Rakaydos said:

Not really. 4 jumpmaster pilots, 1 scum only action efficency card, 1 droid that's defined an architype since the boxed set, 1 pilot that has defined rebel listbuilding since the boxed set. (In addition to what FFG has already done to zuckuss, manaru, palp and x7.) I throw in a very minor "do you really want to use this this turn" on Advance Slam, but sabine might also need review if bombs in general get a multi faction buff.

And an early Astromech, a turret, Miranda possibly after that, and what ever you missed the first time around that will grow to prominence. All for an obsolete standard.

Just now, SabineKey said:

And an early Astromech, a turret, Miranda possibly after that, and what ever you missed the first time around that will grow to prominence. All for an obsolete standard.

still easier than bringing the Tie fighter, tie intercepter, tie bomber, tie punisher, tie advance, tie phantom, tie adv proto, Lambada, Firespray, Scyk, Khilrazx, Starviper, Z95, Awing, Bwing, Attack Shuttle, and Uwing, all up to the jumpmaster level.

12 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

still easier than bringing the Tie fighter, tie intercepter, tie bomber, tie punisher, tie advance, tie phantom, tie adv proto, Lambada, Firespray, Scyk, Khilrazx, Starviper, Z95, Awing, Bwing, Attack Shuttle, and Uwing, all up to the jumpmaster level.

Some of them already where at one point or another. And they got pushed out by other stuff, not always the Jumpmaster.

there are actually easier ways to bring some of those up. The idea of Squadron bonuses have been thrown around, and I believe could do wonders for thematic lists, possibly focusing on generics. With what they've learned with previous fix titles and experiments in errating in fixes to old titles, I feel a couple of those ships could be seen to using this method easily enough as well.

Once again, I have more confidence in the later set design then I do the early waves. Returning things to the standard of those early waves seems too backwards to me.

7 hours ago, Stevey86 said:

Just because FFG have failed miserably to sort out the other 2, doesn't mean that the Imp nerfs were wrong. And lets be honest, the only reason people are salty about it is because they've made the conscious choice to limit themselves to 1/3 of a game experience.

Actually, yes it means exactly this. They teach you this in game design 101. ;-)
A game with different player options has a power curve and that curve orientates itself by the strongest options avaible for players, not the average, and certainly not the worst either. If a game had 7 extremly strong options and you nerf just 2 of them down to the average you decreased player options in competitive play and failed to achieve your design goal.

So yeah, just because FFG failed to address the other options their overall approach failed. You can balance with an everything is OP approach or can you try to balance for a rather close to average power curve, both are solid ways to do things, what you can not do is to mix both approaches on different factions, because your player base will run storm against that and rightfully so. ;-)

5 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Actually, yes it means exactly this. They teach you this in game design 101. ;-)
A game with different player options has a power curve and that curve orientates itself by the strongest options avaible for players, not the average, and certainly not the worst either. If a game had 7 extremly strong options and you nerf just 2 of them down to the average you decreased player options in competitive play and failed to achieve your design goal.

So yeah, just because FFG failed to address the other options their overall approach failed. You can balance with an everything is OP approach or can you try to balance for a rather close to average power curve, both are solid ways to do things, what you can not do is to mix both approaches on different factions, because your player base will run storm against that and rightfully so. ;-)

And as I already said in another comment after this, they did try.

Scum/Jumps got hit with the 3rd FAQ in a row. Trouble is the one thing that actually needs fixing is the one think they can't errata their way out of, and that's the ship's stats.

Short of invalidating an entire expansion, that's gonna be pretty ******* difficult to do. (and if you think the player base is mad now, see what reaction you'd get from everyone who'd bought 3 Jumps!)

+1 defence die vs turrets on range 3 (TLT fix, doesn't affect other turrets. Primary weapon turrets allready have this defence modifier. Make cannons&torpedos&missiles better on range 3 than secondary weapon turrets).

1 minute ago, Stevey86 said:

And as I already said in another comment after this, they did try.

Scum/Jumps got hit with the 3rd FAQ in a row. Trouble is the one thing that actually needs fixing is the one think they can't errata their way out of, and that's the ship's stats.

Short of invalidating an entire expansion, that's gonna be pretty ******* difficult to do. (and if you think the player base is mad now, see what reaction you'd get from everyone who'd bought 3 Jumps!)

They did not not even looked at Attani, which in many ways is like x7, especially as most scum ships are a little overcost, well the old ones at least, the new ones naturally thrive with Attani, which brings them into a pretty bad spot for balancing btw. ;-)
Furthermore, do or do not. There is no try. They clearly did not, and even a little bit of playtesting should have shown them this quite easily. Now that the defenders got hit so hard surprised me a little, until I released that we had jet another wave with more damage which naturally deals with those defenders quite well.

The reaction from everyone who bought three jumps seems like it would have been quite mild, in comparison to everyone who bought Palpatine ;-)

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

and even a little bit of playtesting should have shown them this quite easily.

You've seen the Jumpmaster right?

You think they playtest? ?