2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:And, like I've stated in EVERY thread to date: don't worry, just wait, if they work great on the Aggressors, they'll hit it with the nerf bat within two months, definitely before Worlds, guaranteed.
That seems sadly accurate.
3 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:The real problem is that it can be spammed. One TLT in a list is pretty easy to outfly. 4 of them become a nightmare. What if they just made it unique?
Yet, quad TLTs aren't doing great currently (and won't at least until the Aggressor drops and/or torp scouts receive another nerf). The only TLTs lists doing great right now AFAIK have just one (Miranda or Ghost).
Ok then, let's do eet. Nerf em. But also since we're at it why don't we also just remove all green dice from the game too. That darn fenn rau and his multiple evade dice plus autothrusters isn't fun so let's get rid of that too. Heck why don't we just ban everything released after wave 1 and make x-wing great again. Oh wait tie fighters dominated then. Ban them too! Only xwings are allowed in x-wing!
The idea is silly. TLT isn't destroying anything right now on the top tables. If you can't defeat someone using TLT then as the Carolina Krayts say "git gud"
Edited by maniacmcgoo7 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:The real problem is that it can be spammed. One TLT in a list is pretty easy to outfly. 4 of them become a nightmare. What if they just made it unique?
Well, that would save FFG money as they wouldn't need to pack two into every K-Wing pack any more.
Will be interesting to see what happens when the Aggressor drops, but the obvious implication will be that there'll be more of them around. Since TLTs have already contributed to the death of aces, potentially having more around just means aces will be that much further away from making a competitive return
5 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:Since TLTs have already contributed to the death of aces, potentially having more around just means aces will be that much further away from making a competitive return
Have they really? Most ace builds typically have autothrusters (witha a couple of exceptions) and repositioning moves after the tlt carrier.
I've never really had a problem against TLTs when flying aces (mostly Fenn, also Poe), where they are really effective is against the high health low agility ships who pretty much take 2 damage per turn per tlt.
15 minutes ago, asters89 said:Have they really? Most ace builds typically have autothrusters (witha a couple of exceptions) and repositioning moves after the tlt carrier.
I've never really had a problem against TLTs when flying aces (mostly Fenn, also Poe), where they are really effective is against the high health low agility ships who pretty much take 2 damage per turn per tlt.
Yes, they have. They are a big reason why Aces have seen less and less table time since the K-Wing was released - they are the first reason usage started to drop, in fact. Since then Aces have also been hit in other ways, including increased damage from bombs plus (in the Empire's case) the Great Palp Nerf, which has pushed them further down the curve.
TLTs also contributed greatly to the demise of BroBots, only one wave after they became a thing.
I agree that they are really effective against low agility/high health ships as well - which was the point of the suggestion on page one - they're currently good against everything.
Focus their use against low agility / high health ships make that the TLT's main target, instead of being the universal can opener they are right now.
Edited by FTS Gecko1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:Yes, they have. They are a big reason why Aces have seen less and less table time since the K-Wing was released - they are the first reason usage started to drop, in fact. Since then Aces have also been hit in other ways, including increased damage from bombs plus (in the Empire's case) the Great Palp Nerf, which has pushed them further down the curve.
TLTs also contributed greatly to the demise of BroBots, only one wave after they became a thing.
Huh? 3 greens+Autothrusters+tokens are largely doing fine vs TLTs.
Especially in the case of Brobots, I really doubt TLTs played that much of a role in their demise, especially since Glittercrack brobots can usually PS kill an Y-wing on first round.
Nerf Opportunist!
1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:Yes, they have. They are a big reason why Aces have seen less and less table time since the K-Wing was released - they are the first reason usage started to drop, in fact. Since then Aces have also been hit in other ways, including increased damage from bombs plus (in the Empire's case) the Great Palp Nerf, which has pushed them further down the curve.
Hmm... And there was me thinking that (particularly) aces were doing pretty well in the wave 8 (deadeye u-boat meta) and then got pushed out a bit by defenders being more effcient and finally the palp nerf and the current (relatively) stress heavy meta slamming the door on them.
1 hour ago, asters89 said:Hmm... And there was me thinking that (particularly) aces were doing pretty well in the wave 8 (deadeye u-boat meta) and then got pushed out a bit by defenders being more effcient and finally the palp nerf and the current (relatively) stress heavy meta slamming the door on them.
Slam one door. Then receive one stress token.
Nerf competitive x-wing! It's ruining the game! People keep flying the same, flavor of the meta lists just because they find it more important to win than to fly a list that thematically inspires them.
Who really finds Jumpmasters that interesting? Who would be flying them if they weren't such an efficient path to victory? Does winning make it worthwhile to suck the fun out of an awesome game? How much TLT spam would you worry about while playing thematic, casual games with friends?
I'm not seriously trying to attack competitive play. I know it helps drive interest in the game and therefore keep it in print. However, I seriously question the importance of winning a tournament as weighed against playing what we like without worrying about nerfs, FAQs and metas?
There were exactly TWO (2) TLT upgrade cards in the top 16 at worlds. The first card was knocked out before top 8 and the second was knocked out before the final.
If you want to nerf something doing well competitively right now, just ban the scum faction from tournament play entirely. </tongue from cheek>
4 minutes ago, MarekMandalore said:Nerf competitive x-wing! It's ruining the game! People keep flying the same, flavor of the meta lists just because they find it more important to win than to fly a list that thematically inspires them.
Who really finds Jumpmasters that interesting? Who would be flying them if they weren't such an efficient path to victory? Does winning make it worthwhile to suck the fun out of an awesome game? How much TLT spam would you worry about while playing thematic, casual games with friends?
I'm not seriously trying to attack competitive play. I know it helps drive interest in the game and therefore keep it in print. However, I seriously question the importance of winning a tournament as weighed against playing what we like without worrying about nerfs, FAQs and metas?
Is it hard to believe people can like the versatility a Jumpmaster brings? That fans of bounty hunters and Dengar in general want to play with him?
There is also those that enjoyed playing Palp Aces, but with the recent nerfs (and some fatigue of flying the shuttle), Fangaroo looks awfully inticing.
And I'll go on record as saying an immortal Tel build is actually kind fun to play.
14 minutes ago, SabineKey said:Is it hard to believe people can like the versatility a Jumpmaster brings? That fans of bounty hunters and Dengar in general want to play with him?
There is also those that enjoyed playing Palp Aces, but with the recent nerfs (and some fatigue of flying the shuttle), Fangaroo looks awfully inticing.
And I'll go on record as saying an immortal Tel build is actually kind fun to play.
That's all well and good, but without the competitive meta in mind and the tournament scene, I would hazard to guess that anyone who truly enjoys those lists would also enjoy other things. I'm not saying those lists wouldn't be played. I'm just suggesting that if tournament victories weren't our focus, you wouldn't see them as much. Even their biggest fans would probably enjoy flying other lists from time to time.
I don't think Jm5k, TLT, or pre-nerf Palp are really the problem. I think the problem is player attitudes, on the part of those who insist playing the same abusive lists at every event, regardless of their opponent's enjoyment (or lack thereof) because winning trumps a fun game.
Such an approach is toxic to the game and the community. When you realize how much others hate flying against the list you've been using, you're more likely to keep others around to play with if you change up your list. Or, better yet, just fly varying lists from the start so that people don't get sick of facing whatever list you bring. Rely more on your skills at maneuvering than on card synergies.
Then again, my opinion is clearly biased as I was attracted to the X-wing MINIATURES Game, and turning it into a deck building game annoys me.
20 minutes ago, Sephlar said:There were exactly TWO (2) TLT upgrade cards in the top 16 at worlds. The first card was knocked out before top 8 and the second was knocked out before the final.
So what you're actually saying there is that TLTs were represented in twice as many lists, and progressed further than the entire Imperial faction at Worlds. Your choice of statistics, not mine.
22 minutes ago, Sephlar said:
If you want to nerf something doing well competitively right now, just ban the scum faction from tournament play entirely. </tongue from cheek>
No one's saying Scum shouldn't be smacked repeatedly with the Nerf bat as well. A lot of problems with the one-faction dominance at Worlds could be dealt with by swatting the JM5K hard. Then there's SabineSLAM to consider as well. The fact is if you just knock, say, the JM5K down, then one of the other over powered elements in the game will step up to the plate. TLT is one of the top contenders.
But this thread isn't about balancing the Scum part of the equation, it's about balancing the TLT part of the equation.
35 minutes ago, Sephlar said:If you want to nerf something doing well competitively right now, just ban the scum faction from tournament play entirely.
Best idea in the whole thread.
If you're going to balance the TLT, I would do the following,
"Attack: Perform this attack twice, even against a target outside your firing arc. The defender may add 1 to his agility vs this attack. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage then cancel all dice results"
Giving the defender an extra green dice would cut down on the damage of the TLT a little bit.
The other option is to make the TLT more expensive.
1 minute ago, MarekMandalore said:That's all well and good, but without the competitive meta in mind and the tournament scene, I would hazard to guess that anyone who truly enjoys those lists would also enjoy other things. I'm not saying those lists wouldn't be played. I'm just suggesting that if tournament victories weren't our focus, you wouldn't see them as much. Even their biggest fans would probably enjoy flying other lists from time to time.
I don't think Jm5k, TLT, or pre-nerf Palp are really the problem. I think the problem is player attitudes, on the part of those who insist playing the same abusive lists at every event, regardless of their opponent's enjoyment (or lack thereof) because winning trumps a fun game.
Such an approach is toxic to the game and the community. When you realize how much others hate flying against the list you've been using, you're more likely to keep others around to play with if you change up your list. Or, better yet, just fly varying lists from the start so that people don't get sick of facing whatever list you bring. Rely more on your skills at maneuvering than on card synergies.
Then again, my opinion is clearly biased as I was attracted to the X-wing MINIATURES Game, and turning it into a deck building game annoys me.
But the problem is with such a diverse player base, going by what might annoy other players would probably eliminate most if not all lists. I hate the Stressbot in all its forms. Should other people stop using it because of me? Should an accomplished ace player stop playing aces if a jouster opponent doesn't like it? Every game comes with it's flaws and problems. Being able to move past them is not only a part of the game, but also a good life lesson.
While winning at all costs is toxic, I think everyone plays to win. I would be astonished if someone starts a game going "I hope I lose". Winning is about properly using your skill, knowledge, and luck. And having that pay off is a sweet feeling.
I agree that some put too much emphasis on it, but saying that the "winning trumps fun" sentiment is the problem is too slippery a slope to base on how the game should be played.