39 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Sounds like you'd be happier with a different game where you buy once and you're done. Maybe something like chess. It's been pretty popular for about 1500 years and you'll never have to buy an expansion pack.

It sounds like you want to play at a super competitive level... requiring the purchase of unneeded models to get specific cards... without having to spend the required money. If you're more of a casual player, this is a non issue. Just play with what you have.

The problem will emerge when FFG will cross the magic border of greediness, and then this company will become synonymous with "evil corporation sucking their playerbase dry".
We saw this already with GW. This company for many years was de facto monopolist when it comes to customizable miniatures games - yet constant disregard for playerbase and increasing greed made them universally hated by all.
These days they just focus on fixing their tarnished image.

I started to buy FFG products in 2013 and they get constant customer in me - and that was possible because I get great value for the buck - I remember I was amazed how much stuff and gameplay did I get in Twilight Imperium, Runewars or Rune Age. It was in stark contrast with GW greediness. Fast forward a few years and I see reversed trend - GW publish more and more really cheap and solid products and meanwhile FFG starts to stretch consumers when it comes to how much value do you get for your money - look at how cut Eldritch Horror is, you need to buy one small expansion from the get go; look at how thin Runbeound 3rd ed. is comparison with previous edition; look at how expensive are small expansions for Battlelore, Descent or Imperial Assault.
Look at how expensive were small expansions for Runebound - initial outcry was so big that FFG lowered absurd initial retail price. What do you think that was? FFG was testing waters how much they can rip off.

Thus I am concerned - unfortunately FFG policies made me very careful when it comes to picking their games - because in no way I got guarantee I will get fair value for my money.

If I really want that upgrade card, then I'll buy the blasted expansion. Usually, however, I can't sped $25 to buy a single upgrade card. So what do I do? I just don't include that upgrade in my lists. I'll buy the expansions I want and use whatever upgrades come in those. Will I say, "Gee, I wish I had an extra copy of X," from time to time? Absolutely. I'm used to that from X-Wing. But being sad that I can't afford an upgrade doesn't give me some justification to go print out whatever card I want. You're not just buying a piece of paper when you buy an upgrade card, you're also buying development time, and testing time, and all that stuff. I don't feel right playing with those cards for free, so I just live without the ones I can't afford.

It reminds me of when Magic: The Gathering started. They put in a few powerful cards in the packs with the idea that people were gonna spend $60 or so on cards and that was it. Some people would have these powerful cards, and others not-so-powerful. The intent was that people just build decks with what they have. When people started spending 100s of dollars on packs, looking for powerful cards, the company wasn't really ready for it (though they quickly adapted to take advantage of it). I play FFG's miniatures games with that original MtG mentality of spending a set amount of money and then making the best army I can from that.

I intend to mainly play casual games, so I'll just proxy extra copies of cards if I need to. I will buy more of something for the models though if I happen to need those. If I play a competitive match, then I'll just build a list that doesn't require lots of 1 card. It's not like I'm good enough to need to play some meta list anyway. I would assume that any competitive player would be used to shelling out the big bucks for upgrade cards by now based on FFG's other games, but if they decide to revolt against that now then... honestly I'm all for it. If it makes it easier for casuals like me to get the cards I need, great! You could do a rule pretty easily where you use those number tokens (i.e. 1, 2, 3 etc.) to match 1 upgrade card to multiple units. FFG could just make something like that tournament legal and then there'd be no loss of clarity.

7 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

The problem will emerge when FFG will cross the magic border of greediness, and then this company will become synonymous with "evil corporation sucking their playerbase dry".
We saw this already with GW. This company for many years was de facto monopolist when it comes to customizable miniatures games - yet constant disregard for playerbase and increasing greed made them universally hated by all.
These days they just focus on fixing their tarnished image.

I started to buy FFG products in 2013 and they get constant customer in me - and that was possible because I get great value for the buck - I remember I was amazed how much stuff and gameplay did I get in Twilight Imperium, Runewars or Rune Age. It was in stark contrast with GW greediness. Fast forward a few years and I see reversed trend - GW publish more and more really cheap and solid products and meanwhile FFG starts to stretch consumers when it comes to how much value do you get for your money - look at how cut Eldritch Horror is, you need to buy one small expansion from the get go; look at how thin Runbeound 3rd ed. is comparison with previous edition; look at how expensive are small expansions for Battlelore, Descent or Imperial Assault.
Look at how expensive were small expansions for Runebound - initial outcry was so big that FFG lowered absurd initial retail price. What do you think that was? FFG was testing waters how much they can rip off.

Thus I am concerned - unfortunately FFG policies made me very careful when it comes to picking their games - because in no way I got guarantee I will get fair value for my money.

Well I think the issue has been a bit exaggerated here, I'm mostly playing devils advocate. I'm actually a huge fan of FFG and I buy a lot of stuff from them with little thought because they make quality products. I rarely have issue with anything they do, but I do believe in this instant of "buying models you don't need for the cards", its very scamy and there really is no reason for them to do it. They have customer loyalty and a great reputation, I don't see why they do this sort of scamy business on the side. Just put the bloody cards on print on demand and solve the problem. They have absolutely nothing to lose, people will buy the expansions for the models and if they don't need the models its because they bought more core set. Either way they are making out like bandits. I don't really understand this extra level of greed they have infused in this model, it really serves no logical purpose.

4 minutes ago, Willange said:

You could do a rule pretty easily where you use those number tokens (i.e. 1, 2, 3 etc.) to match 1 upgrade card to multiple units. FFG could just make something like that tournament legal and then there'd be no loss of clarity.

While there would still be people that complain that they need to buy any cards, I think rules that allow for a single card to be used in multiple units would be make most people happy. Maybe have some numbered tokens that have a readied and exhausted side and a matching number to put on the actual card?

2 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

I don't really understand this extra level of greed they have infused in this model, it really serves no logical purpose.

As I said already they become more greedy with each coming product.
Look at Dice Tower, it is hard to tell they got anything against FFG - in fact they are perfect definition of fanboys when it comes to their games - and yet even them called FFG out on dirty practice of providing too small pool of dice to their games. To have normal game you need to buy second core set or buy horribly overpriced expansion with 6 plastic dice.
Those things are typical from FFG lately, and are not a fair treating of the customer in my opinion - thus my reserve when it comes to picking new title from them.

1 hour ago, BigKahuna said:

Well no one has to do that, I can get a 25 cards printed at my local printing shop for 5 bucks that will come out the same quality that FFG can produce anyway and I promise you even under a microscope you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between "official" and "proxy". Nothing on gods green earth could get me to buy a box of models for the cards, HELL TO THE NO.

I will happily drop my entire bank account on good solid games, but I will have none of this kind of BS.

That's... quite distasteful.

I don't mean to be unwelcoming, rude, or needlessly unkind, but if you are that much of a skinflint that you will play a game a company sunk time, effort, money and manpower into producing by cheating them out of frankly paltry amounts of money...

Some of us like to, ya know, SUPPORT companies, so they can expand, support , and create more games.

Edit: I see where you note that you wouldn't necessarily do this, and you yourself support FFG, but I stand by my strong distaste for this attitude.

20 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

That's... quite distasteful.

I don't mean to be unwelcoming, rude, or needlessly unkind, but if you are that much of a skinflint that you will play a game a company sunk time, effort, money and manpower into producing by cheating them out of frankly paltry amounts of money...

Some of us like to, ya know, SUPPORT companies, so they can expand, support , and create more games.

Edit: I see where you note that you wouldn't necessarily do this, and you yourself support FFG, but I stand by my strong distaste for this attitude.

Well I can only say that I respond in kind when it comes to companies because I don't see how their hard earned money is any more valuable then mine. There are good ways to make money and then there are bad ways to make money. Usually I wouldn't care as I let my wallet do the talking but in the case of FFG it makes no sense to provide quality products, provide great service and support and then spoil the whole thing by adding obvious scams into the pool. As I said, there is no logic or benefit to gain from it, its really just a extremely unfair way to treat their loyal patrons for as you said "paltry amount of money". The way I see it if a company is willing to scam, I don't see why their consumers should be held to a different standard.

4 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Well I can only say that I respond in kind when it comes to companies because I don't see how their hard earned money is any more valuable then mine. There are good ways to make money and then there are bad ways to make money. Usually I wouldn't care as I let my wallet do the talking but in the case of FFG it makes no sense to provide quality products, provide great service and support and then spoil the whole thing by adding obvious scams into the pool. As I said, there is no logic or benefit to gain from it, its really just a extremely unfair way to treat their loyal patrons for as you said "paltry amount of money". The way I see it if a company is willing to scam, I don't see why their consumers should be held to a different standard.

Who is scamming whom?

You're the one disregarding the value of their cards, the time of their creators, designers, playtesters...

Do you REALLY believe intellectual property has no value besides the paper it's printed on?

49 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Who is scamming whom?

You're the one disregarding the value of their cards, the time of their creators, designers, playtesters...

Do you REALLY believe intellectual property has no value besides the paper it's printed on?

Come on, you can't be serious with this. I think the only reason you think this way is because the product in question is in the entertainment category. This has nothing to do with them setting the value, its a question of business practices. They have created a situation in which the only way to get 4 cards is to pay 25 bucks and with it comes models you may not need or want and as a cherry on top for competitive players they make it a requirement that you collect multiple copies of the card, while designing the game in a way to ensure if you don't buy it you don't stand a chance comparatively (The Meta). Its a jury rigged system, its not necessary to make money, its simply set up out of greed to create artificial value. Its roughly the equivalent of selling tires in bundles of 3 tires, forcing you to buy 6 to get the set of 4 you actually need.

Its simply about ethics, this setup shows the lack thereof and what your basically saying is that if we act in the same manner, we are criminals, but if they do it, they are just a business. Its a lame double standard American consumers have swallowed like the Trump pill. Its complete nonsense.

3 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Come on, you can't be serious with this. I think the only reason you think this way is because the product in question is in the entertainment category. This has nothing to do with them setting the value, its a question of business practices. They have created a situation in which the only way to get 4 cards is to pay 25 bucks and with it comes models you may not need or want and as a cherry on top for competitive players they make it a requirement that you collect multiple copies of the card, while designing the game in a way to ensure if you don't buy it you don't stand a chance comparatively (The Meta). Its a jury rigged system, its not necessary to make money, its simply set up out of greed to create artificial value. Its roughly the equivalent of selling tires in bundles of 3 tires, forcing you to buy 6 to get the set of 4 you actually need.

Its simply about ethics, this setup shows the lack thereof and what your basically saying is that if we act in the same manner, we are criminals, but if they do it, they are just a business. Its a lame double standard American consumers have swallowed like the Trump pill. Its complete nonsense.

I'm not going to argue with you any further on this subject.

I'll agree it's about ethics, though not the way you seem to think it is.

The most stereotypically American attitude I'm seeing here is a strong sense of entitlement.

11 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I'm not going to argue with you any further on this subject.

I'll agree it's about ethics, though not the way you seem to think it is.

The most stereotypically American attitude I'm seeing here is a strong sense of entitlement.

Well I won't argue with that, its a fair enough assessment. I'm definitely entitled, but its not because I want something for nothing, its because I work for a living, make a crap ton of money and believe I'm entitled to determine the value of that money and the value of the things I buy with it, definitely not the people who are trying to sell me stuff. I know when something is a crap deal and I'm definitely entitled to ***** about it and do something about it. But for the record I'm not American.

2 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Well I won't argue with that, its a fair enough assessment. I'm definitely entitled, but its not because I want something for nothing, its because I work for a living, make a crap ton of money and believe I'm entitled to determine the value of that money and the value of the things I buy with it, definitely not the people who are trying to sell me stuff. I know when something is a crap deal and I'm definitely entitled to ***** about it and in some cases even do something about it. But for the record I'm not American.

You're entitled to make those decisions, yes. You're also entitled to make your opinions and reasons known.

You're also entitled to not buy the product, or to play with the product in any way you see fit.

That's not what we are talking about though. You are most certainly NOT entitled to counterfeit product you don't want to pay for.

1 minute ago, Tvayumat said:

You're entitled to make those decisions, yes.

You're also entitled to not buy the product, or to play with the product in any way you see fit.

That's not what we are talking about though. You are most certainly NOT entitled to counterfeit product you don't want to pay for.

You do realize that copying something for personal use is neither counterfeiting or illegal. I have a printer, I can print whatever the hell I please.

Let's get this clear to both parties. These kind of games are luxury games. They are much more expensive than a box of Monopoly. That being said, the customization honestly is not going to make having 3 combat ingenuity must have. There will be plenty of options. You could use carrion lancers for blight in a much more durable platform. We still are missing some stuff from the infantry upgrade pack too.

I think the hostility is overblown for a miniature game. You spend your money on what you guys want.

1 minute ago, BigKahuna said:

You do realize that copying something for personal use is neither counterfeiting or illegal. I have a printer, I can print whatever the hell I please.

Uh huh. So well people couldn't even tell the difference with a microscope, I believe you said.

Sure, pal. That's not counterfeit. Whatever you say.

Just now, Tvayumat said:

Uh huh. So well people couldn't even tell the difference with a microscope, I believe you said.

Sure, pal. That's not counterfeit. Whatever you say.

Good, glad we cleared that up

2 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Uh huh. So well people couldn't even tell the difference with a microscope, I believe you said.

Sure, pal. That's not counterfeit. Whatever you say.

This is a ******* miniature game. If he doesn't want to buy additional packs then FFG won't get his money. That said he will probably buy newer packs still supporting the game.

2 hours ago, jek said:

I'm with you, I have no issue with this model. But hey we are just prolonging a problem...but who cares? Not me...

I have no problem with the system. i have never had a Fantasy battles army that cost me less than 1000$, this game is a steal. Most armies take me 400 plus hours to build and paint. So worth every penny. I have 4 cores. So cheap per model.

29 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

This is a ******* miniature game. If he doesn't want to buy additional packs then FFG won't get his money. That said he will probably buy newer packs still supporting the game.

I've run multiple RMG tournaments allowing proxies of multiple cards as long as you have at least one.

I will continue to do so in the future.

That's a **** far sight from producing cards that are intentionally deceptive.

But hey, do what you want. Don't expect people to like it, though.

If I knew someone producing cards like this, I would be hesitant to allow them in a regional or higher. Maybe that's just me.

2 hours ago, Embir82 said:

As I said already they become more greedy with each coming product.
Look at Dice Tower, it is hard to tell they got anything against FFG - in fact they are perfect definition of fanboys when it comes to their games - and yet even them called FFG out on dirty practice of providing too small pool of dice to their games. To have normal game you need to buy second core set or buy horribly overpriced expansion with 6 plastic dice.
Those things are typical from FFG lately, and are not a fair treating of the customer in my opinion - thus my reserve when it comes to picking new title from them.

To be fair, I think Runewars is the first FFG game I've bought that I've not needed to buy extra dice for right away.

This may change somewhat pending future expansions, but the core dice have served well for what is needed in game - a far cry from their other games as far as included dice is concerned.

42 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I've run multiple RMG tournaments allowing proxies of multiple cards as long as you have at least one.

I will continue to do so in the future.

That's a **** far sight from producing cards that are intentionally deceptive.

But hey, do what you want. Don't expect people to like it, though.

If I knew someone producing cards like this, I would be hesitant to allow them in a regional or higher. Maybe that's just me.

As long as he doesn't sell them I don't think it will upset anyone.

I have never quite understood where this requirement of needing multiple of the same card comes from. Sure FFG might mandate this for thier tournament play, but we certainly don't need to follow it. If we as a community all just agree only one copy is nessesary ( which this thread seems to indicate), problem solved for 98% of the time.

Honestly for 30 points have two single carrion lancers just spit out blight at opponents. And they are more durable than a tray of archers.

29 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Honestly for 30 points have two single carrion lancers just spit out blight at opponents. And they are more durable than a tray of archers.

Archers can blight engaged units. Lancers can't.