1 minute ago, BigKahuna said:

The only issue I have seen so far is that you will want upgrade cards from expansions for units in the core set and you will always be short.

For example with the Core Set you have an Archer unit, but no combat ingenuity, so you buy the expansion but you only get 1 copy. hence you have 2 2x1 units but only one of them has combat ingenuity.

In the end, while far more expensive (I calculate about 250% more) to not have a mismatch of cards vs. field-able units its better to skip the core set and buy only the expansion sets and buy the Essentials Pack.

Its worth pointing out the most important cards (the future meta cards for organized play) and been specifically put into the expansion packs to create a situation of having to buy packs for cards, even though FFG has explicitly said they wouldn't do that. Though in their defense they said you wouldn't have to buy other factions to have all the cards, they didn't actually say they wouldn't arrange the meta to ensure you would have to do it anyway.

Its annoying, they should simply allow us to buy the cards, I don't understand why they always have to make this **** so **** complicated and F'ed up.

You seem to be assuming that you'll always be fielding minimum sized units. I think this is a false assumption.

In X-Wing, fielding 6 upgraded TIE Fighters will require 6 upgrade cards. Imagine if you could instead field them in mini squadrons of three linked TIEs. You'd only need 2 upgrade cards. That's how Runewars works.

Ignoring upgrades, a 2x1 of Reanimate Archers rolls two dice to attack, doing 2 damage per hit. A 3x2 of Reanimate Archers rolls the same two dice to attack but does 3 damage per hit and gets a free reroll. The 3x2 is also cheaper per model than the 2x1 unit. You'd need one upgrade card per 6 bases instead of one card per 2 bases.

MAYBE we see multiple small units dominate the meta... but I doubt it. A 3x2 of Reanimate Archers has about a 60% chance of dealing 6+ damage to a unit. That'll render a 2x1 of anything more or less useless. Putting all your eggs into 2x1 shaped baskets seems a little dicey.

"If you are referring to column tactics thats already coming out for Daqan at the same time as the Latari get it."

has this been revealed? I have not seen anything showing that.
Do the Undead get it at the same time?

1 minute ago, BigKahuna said:

Well no one has to do that, I can get a 25 cards printed at my local printing shop for 5 bucks that will come out the same quality that FFG can produce anyway and I promise you even under a microscope you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between "official" and "proxy". Nothing on gods green earth could get me to buy a box of models for the cards, HELL TO THE NO.

I will happily drop my entire bank account on good solid games, but I will have none of this kind of BS.

Sounds like you'd be happier with a different game where you buy once and you're done. Maybe something like chess. It's been pretty popular for about 1500 years and you'll never have to buy an expansion pack.

It sounds like you want to play at a super competitive level... requiring the purchase of unneeded models to get specific cards... without having to spend the required money. If you're more of a casual player, this is a non issue. Just play with what you have.

With every game I've ever seen that has optional expansion packs... spending more => more options => more competitive.

2 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

You seem to be assuming that you'll always be fielding minimum sized units. I think this is a false assumption.

In X-Wing, fielding 6 upgraded TIE Fighters will require 6 upgrade cards. Imagine if you could instead field them in mini squadrons of three linked TIEs. You'd only need 2 upgrade cards. That's how Runewars works.

Ignoring upgrades, a 2x1 of Reanimate Archers rolls two dice to attack, doing 2 damage per hit. A 3x2 of Reanimate Archers rolls the same two dice to attack but does 3 damage per hit and gets a free reroll. The 3x2 is also cheaper per model than the 2x1 unit. You'd need one upgrade card per 6 bases instead of one card per 2 bases.

MAYBE we see multiple small units dominate the meta... but I doubt it. A 3x2 of Reanimate Archers has about a 60% chance of dealing 6+ damage to a unit. That'll render a 2x1 of anything more or less useless. Putting all your eggs into 2x1 shaped baskets seems a little dicey.

In this particular case (Reanimate Archers w/Combat Ingenuity) you don't really care about hits. You want to maximize the amount of Blight that they can spread so more small units is better than a big unit that is more cost effective with higher damage output.

While we're on the topic, let's get the exact wording that was used by an employee of FFG (Frank Brooks) so we know exactly what was said. By the way, this is the only sources that states anything about the distribution model.

"Part of our distribution model is going to be very much that you should be able to buy one faction and be able to support everything in that. ... We don't want to stress out players by being, like, 'Oh, I gotta collect this unit for this upgrade for a faction and I, I don't even play them!' and all that, because it's a lot more investment to get into one army in Runewars than it would be to like -... you could buy two ships (if you bought the right ships) and have a list for X-Wing."

Just now, Hidatom said:

"If you are referring to column tactics thats already coming out for Daqan at the same time as the Latari get it."

has this been revealed? I have not seen anything showing that.
Do the Undead get it at the same time?

The Undead don't yet have a unit that would benefit from it. I would imagine that the inevitable Waiqar cavalry unit will include Column Tactics.

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

In this particular case (Reanimate Archers w/Combat Ingenuity) you don't really care about hits. You want to maximize the amount of Blight that they can spread so more small units is better than a big unit that is more cost effective with higher damage output.

I was talking damage... I didn't mention Combat Ingenuity. Blight is nice, but wiping is frequently better.

2 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Sounds like you'd be happier with a different game where you buy once and you're done. Maybe something like chess. It's been pretty popular for about 1500 years and you'll never have to buy an expansion pack.

Or Runewars, the board game. I highly recommend it, and the expansion isn't even really necessary. I think that's an awesome 1-time purchase for anyone interested in fantasy or remotely interested in the Runewars Miniatures Game.

1 minute ago, Hidatom said:

"If you are referring to column tactics thats already coming out for Daqan at the same time as the Latari get it."

has this been revealed? I have not seen anything showing that.
Do the Undead get it at the same time?

It is shown as coming with the Heavy Crossbowmen. I wouldn't be surprised if it also comes with the Deathknights or Barghests or whatever undead unit is scheduled to release that the same time is.

2 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

"If you are referring to column tactics thats already coming out for Daqan at the same time as the Latari get it."

has this been revealed? I have not seen anything showing that.
Do the Undead get it at the same time?

yes column tactics is in the crossbow reveal it is the face up card in their picture

1 minute ago, KrisWall said:

The Undead don't yet have a unit that would benefit from it. I would imagine that the inevitable Waiqar cavalry unit will include Column Tactics.

^^^THIS! I don't want to get a card in an expansion box if it isn't going to benefit my faction.

3 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Sounds like you'd be happier with a different game where you buy once and you're done. Maybe something like chess. It's been pretty popular for about 1500 years and you'll never have to buy an expansion pack.

It sounds like you want to play at a super competitive level... requiring the purchase of unneeded models to get specific cards... without having to spend the required money. If you're more of a casual player, this is a non issue. Just play with what you have.

With every game I've ever seen that has optional expansion packs... spending more => more options => more competitive.

I have no problem with buying expansions, I even don't have a problem supporting FFG or this game as a sort of communal obligation. But if I need 3 combat ingenuity for my 3 2x1 units I'm not going to buy 3 expansion packs for 75 dollars to get them and I would consider anyone who would take that deal to be a sucker, not a competitive player.

1 minute ago, KrisWall said:

I was talking damage... I didn't mention Combat Ingenuity.

You didn't mention it but you were replying to a post that was complaining about Archers and Combat Ingenuity. This is the exact situation that people will feel like they are buying expansion packs just for a single card.

23 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

For example with the Core Set you have an Archer unit, but no combat ingenuity, so you buy the expansion but you only get 1 copy. hence you have 2 2x1 units but only one of them has combat ingenuity.

I think I like a point made by @KrisWall . He talked about using archers without combat ingenuity. Everyone has been playing mostly core stuff, and have seen how important blight is for the Waiqar....right now. Im guessing not thaaat many people have played a few 3x2 archer squads. Maybe when you're averaging 6 damage an attack you dont need blight, the other thing is dead already. And if the "raining blight" army is what you definitely want then buying the xpacs to get CI shouldn't be that big an issue. Because now we are moving from a competitive army, to a tightly designed competitive army. In X-wing there is way to make a $100 competitive army. But if you want to follow a SPECIFIC strategy, you might be spending more than that. Same with MtG. Same with basically any game I can think of short of like codex where sirlin doesnt really do xpacs.

Even if we decide you want a blightning bolt army, it wont be that expensive in the long run. 2x1 archers = 18 points. Lets assume you want all of them to have CI, and you want 3 of them. That's 66 points (think CI is 4?). So that is literally 1/3 of your army for 75$. And now you're gonna want meatshield reanimates and some carrion lancers (that you got from the core you "wasted" money on.

1 minute ago, taylorcowbell said:

Even if we decide you want a blightning bolt army, it wont be that expensive in the long run. 2x1 archers = 18 points. Lets assume you want all of them to have CI, and you want 3 of them. Thats 66 points (think CI is 4?). So that is literally 1/3 of your army for 75$. And now youre gonna want meatshield reanimates and some carrion lancers (that you got from the core you "wasted" money on.

The problem is that you already have 2 2x1 blocks of archers before you've bought you first archer expansion pack. By the time that you have enough CI to field 3 2x1 units you now have enough models for 5 2x1 units. The $50 that you spent on 2 archer expansions just for CI could have gotten you another Carrion Lancer, 2 more trays of archers, 4 trays of Reanimates, and another Ardus to chop up for parts.

6 minutes ago, taylorcowbell said:

I think I like a point made by @KrisWall . He talked about using archers without combat ingenuity. Everyone has been playing mostly core stuff, and have seen how important blight is for the Waiqar....right now. Im guessing not thaaat many people have played a few 3x2 archer squads. Maybe when you're averaging 6 damage an attack you dont need blight, the other thing is dead already. And if the "raining blight" army is what you definitely want then buying the xpacs to get CI shouldn't be that big an issue. Because now we are moving from a competitive army, to a tightly designed competitive army. In X-wing there is way to make a $100 competitive army. But if you want to follow a SPECIFIC strategy, you might be spending more than that. Same with MtG. Same with basically any game I can think of short of like codex where sirlin doesnt really do xpacs.

Even if we decide you want a blightning bolt army, it wont be that expensive in the long run. 2x1 archers = 18 points. Lets assume you want all of them to have CI, and you want 3 of them. That's 66 points (think CI is 4?). So that is literally 1/3 of your army for 75$. And now you're gonna want meatshield reanimates and some carrion lancers (that you got from the core you "wasted" money on.

Yeah i think your kind of missing the point a bit.

Most people didn't go out and buy 1 core set. 2 is the average, many went directly to 3 core sets (myself included). At this point I don't need any more Archer or reanimates Model, I just need 3-4 copies of all the cards in the Archer and Reanimates expansion packs.

And really I have two beefs to pick with this setup. First, I call bull on Archer and Reanimates "expansion". There is 4 cards in it and the same exact models as in the core set at a 200% mark-up. How the **** does that qualify as an expansion?

Secondly why didn't they just add these bloody cards in the core set? Its 4 freaking cards..

This is a scam, plain and simple and I wouldn't even be pissed about it if people weren't defending this BS. I understand why FFG did it, they are a company trying to make money. I don't get why the community accepts this sort of crap.

1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

The problem is that you already have 2 2x1 blocks of archers before you've bought you first archer expansion pack. By the time that you have enough CI to field 3 2x1 units you now have enough models for 5 2x1 units. The $50 that you spent on 2 archer expansions just for CI could have gotten you another Carrion Lancer, 2 more trays of archers, 4 trays of Reanimates, and another Ardus to chop up for parts.

But the extra cost is a result of you wanting to have a more specialized army. Im willing to bet you could build a good 200 point army with 1 copy of combat ingenuity. But you're spending the extra 50$ to make a specialized one. Its rare to be able to have every option for every single thing you play with be official. If its not official go nuts with proxies. If you want to play at a regional and up level, shell out the 50$? If im playing warhammer and want all my guys to have a certgain weapon, I have to buy enough stuff to put that weapon on my guys. If im playing summoner wars and want to play 10 smashers, I buy a second tundra orcs deck.. Its just what you have to do if you want to be specialized.

2 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

And really I have two beefs to pick with this setup. First, I call bull on Archer and Reanimates "expansion". There is 4 cards in it and the same exact models as in the core set at a 200% mark-up. How the **** does that qualify as an expansion?

Secondly why didn't they just add these bloody cards in the core set? Its 4 freaking cards..

Because if I want another 2 trays of archers but not another worm/ardus or whatever Id rather spend 25 than 100$?

Core sets are always better value than expansion packs, no matter what game youre playing, but expansion packs let you get just what you need.

1 minute ago, taylorcowbell said:

But the extra cost is a result of you wanting to have a more specialized army. Im willing to bet you could build a good 200 point army with 1 copy of combat ingenuity. But you're spending the extra 50$ to make a specialized one. Its rare to be able to have every option for every single thing you play with be official. If its not official go nuts with proxies. If you want to play at a regional and up level, shell out the 50$? If im playing warhammer and want all my guys to have a certgain weapon, I have to buy enough stuff to put that weapon on my guys. If im playing summoner wars and want to play 10 smashers, I buy a second tundra orcs deck.. Its just what you have to do if you want to be specialized.

Sorry to say but, you quite literally exemplify the problem. Ok competitive or not, the setup is designed to make "paying more" feel "exclusive".

12 minutes ago, taylorcowbell said:

But the extra cost is a result of you wanting to have a more specialized army. Im willing to bet you could build a good 200 point army with 1 copy of combat ingenuity. But you're spending the extra 50$ to make a specialized one. Its rare to be able to have every option for every single thing you play with be official. If its not official go nuts with proxies. If you want to play at a regional and up level, shell out the 50$? If im playing warhammer and want all my guys to have a certgain weapon, I have to buy enough stuff to put that weapon on my guys. If im playing summoner wars and want to play 10 smashers, I buy a second tundra orcs deck.. Its just what you have to do if you want to be specialized.

Spending $25 for a card that happens to come with 4 free models turns people off.

I stopped playing Imperial Assault because FFG,smodel of requiring me to buy expansions (blister and the bigger boxed expansions) just for the tournament maps and mission cards. The last time I considered going to a tournament I realized that it was going cost me almost $75 to get the required map and mission cards. That's not $75 to special my squad or update it to something new and cool. That was $75 bucks so I could show up at a tournament and pay $10-15 to play a squad that I've owned for a year.

Then again having to buy rules and army codexes is a turn of for a lot of people as well.

2 minutes ago, taylorcowbell said:

Because if I want another 2 trays of archers but not another worm/ardus or whatever Id rather spend 25 than 100$?

Core sets are always better value than expansion packs, no matter what game youre playing, but expansion packs let you get just what you need.

I get that and I totally agree that its a good system to be able to buy a small amount of units if thats all you need. So why not let us buy the cards we need?

I'm sure ffg will release play kits for this game like armada and x-wing. Some of those harder to obtain cards will show up as alt-arts or something of the sort, making them easier to obtain.

although how you do alt-arts of these cards is a mystery to me haha.

4 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Sorry to say but, you quite literally exemplify the problem. Ok competitive or not, the setup is designed to make "paying more" feel "exclusive".

Cool I will continue to be a member of this problem, I am not going to make anyone else part of the problem but I am also not going to go and ask a print shop to commit a felony to save my 20 bucks(thats what you are planning to do when you talk about get duplicates made) Sorry that my desire to give a company money for a product that I enjoy upsets to so much, your desire to not give them money and look for ways around it upsets me equally if not more.

Just now, jek said:

Cool I will continue to be a member of this problem, I am not going to make anyone else part of the problem but I am also not going to go and ask a print shop to commit a felony to save my 20 bucks(thats what you are planning to do when you talk about get duplicates made) Sorry that my desire to give a company money for a product that I enjoy upsets to so much, your desire to not give them money and look for ways around it upsets me equally if not more.

You assume I live in America, I don't and its not illegal. A private person can print anything he likes for his own use where I live. Besides I'm not planning on doing anything quite so elaborate I was simply illustrating that 4 cards are not worth 25 bucks to print.

19 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Sorry to say but, you quite literally exemplify the problem. Ok competitive or not, the setup is designed to make "paying more" feel "exclusive".

I guess I don't see it as a problem? If you're not playing big events, don't spend the money, if you are, consider it an entry fee.

4 minutes ago, taylorcowbell said:

I guess I don't see it as a problem? If you're not playing big events, don't spend the money, if you are, consider it an entry fee.

I'm with you, I have no issue with this model. But hey we are just prolonging a problem...but who cares? Not me...