Ok.

I am carefully weighting if I should step in this game or not. But I need more info.
The most important thing at the moment is - does factions need upgrade cards that are only in expansions from other armies? In X-Wing for example I have to buy Starviper to get autothrusters.
If exactly same model is in this game I am definetly out.

No. Neutral upgrades will be in every factions pack. Though Some factions will get these before others it seems. So no you don't need to buy the other faction packs.

3 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Ok.

I am carefully weighting if I should step in this game or not. But I need more info.
The most important thing at the moment is - does factions need upgrade cards that are only in expansions from other armies? In X-Wing for example I have to buy Starviper to get autothrusters.
If exactly same model is in this game I am definetly out.

I can't find the link at the moment, but in an interview, Frank Brooks (now working as a developer on Runewars) said that they are not going to package upgrades you need in a different faction because it doesn't make sense in this game with the hobby aspect. In X-Wing it's okay because you can still play that A-wing out of the box, but you have to assemble and paint the Runewars figures.

What we've seen so far seems to indicate that this is true, but we can't verify 100% because no expansions have been released yet, so we don't know all the upgrades and which packs they come in.

Nope. All neutral upgrade cards will (eventually) be available to every faction. You might just have to wait for the next release to get the neutral cards another faction got in this release. If you're patient, you get everything in one faction. If you want all the upgrades NOW, you'll have to buy cross faction.

Also note, you will field a lot more units in this game than X-wing. There will most likely be upgrade cards in one expansion you'll want more copies of than the units contained in it. So that silliness will still happen I am sure.

1 minute ago, Mep said:

Also note, you will field a lot more units in this game than X-wing. There will most likely be upgrade cards in one expansion you'll want more copies of than the units contained in it. So that silliness will still happen I am sure.

Ok then, I am off the Runewars boat.

4 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Ok then, I am off the Runewars boat.

Sad face. Weren't you one of the participants in the BattleLore: Command tournaments? It would be nice to have you in this community.

2 minutes ago, Mep said:

Also note, you will field a lot more units in this game than X-wing. There will most likely be upgrade cards in one expansion you'll want more copies of than the units contained in it. So that silliness will still happen I am sure.

You can already kind of see that happening with Reanimate Archers and Combat Ingenuity, especially for people that bought multiple core sets for cheaper units. Each archer expansion will only come with a single copy of Combat Ingenuity while it seems like deploying multiple 2x1 formations of archers with Combat Ingenuity instead of just using a larger formation with the same number of bases might be a good choice.

7 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Ok then, I am off the Runewars boat.

Something tells me you were never that close to being on it if "you'll have to buy some expansions" shut you down that fast.

8 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Ok then, I am off the Runewars boat.

Unless you are playing at FFG supported events, there's not any real reason to need the right number of upgrade cards.

1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

Unless you are playing at FFG supported events, there's not any real reason to need the right number of upgrade cards.

This.

I've run two tournaments so far where we allow proxies of multiple upgrades as long as you own one copy.

This is going to be fairly common at low level events.

3 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Sad face. Weren't you one of the participants in the BattleLore: Command tournaments? It would be nice to have you in this community.

I wasn't participant, I organized them
Also, I love Battlelore and fantasy is my favourite genre when it comes to tabletop games thus I was really interested in this game.
Unfortunately Runewars is such a huge investment that I want to know how much it could cost me - given the fact that I already invested heavily in X-Wing (got all ships from all factions, some multiple copies), and lets face it FFG games are lately everything but cheap to collect.

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Unless you are playing at FFG supported events, there's not any real reason to need the right number of upgrade cards.

I am heavily competitve. Thus unofficial play is not enough for me. Thus I want to now how much it would cost to field fully tournament-legal list.

5 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Something tells me you were never that close to being on it if "you'll have to buy some expansions" shut you down that fast.

I've got nothing against buying additional expansions - I am against buying expansion just to get one card. Given the fact that it is not cheap and gets me models I won't ever use.
I was ready to accept this marketing model in X-Wing, because it is much easier to get into another faction and make it fully playable. In Runewars this model is unacceptable for me.

Just now, Embir82 said:

I've got nothing against buying additional expansions - I am against buying expansion just to get one card. Given the fact that it is not cheap and gets me models I won't ever use.
I was ready to accept this marketing model in X-Wing, because it is much easier to get into another faction and make it fully playable. In Runewars this model is unacceptable for me.

Models you'll never use?

So, you get one combat ingenuity per archer pack, and two trays of archers...

How is that buying models you'll never use? You literally get the upgrade you want for the unit along with the unit you'll use it on.

If anything, you'll wind up with UPGRADES you'll never use before models.

People have been very cynical, shouting that the sky is falling in regard to upgrade distribution, and it really makes zero sense if you take the time to consider how many upgrades you need for fielding an average 5-7 units.

4 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

I've got nothing against buying additional expansions - I am against buying expansion just to get one card. Given the fact that it is not cheap and gets me models I won't ever use.
I was ready to accept this marketing model in X-Wing, because it is much easier to get into another faction and make it fully playable. In Runewars this model is unacceptable for me.

The issue will be exaggerated when you are building an army around the minimum sized formations of units that are included in the core set (and likely the other faction starter sets) that use upgrades only found in the expansions. This is offset by the fact that you do get a lot of models in the core set for what you are paying. If you split core sets with a friend then you end up with 15 trays of stuff (not counting the duplicate unique). That's less than $7 a tray if you payed MSRP for the core set.

I have no idea at this point what will actually be "competitive" but I'm expecting to spend around $300 bucks. That will obviously grow as more content is released.

This entire thread is making me think about the money I have spent and will spend on FFG games. Armada, Runewars, Arkham Horror LCG, Imperial Assault, Legend of the 5 Rings, plus the inevitable sweet board games and expansions for the likes of Rebellion and Mansions of Madness...

This makes me a sad panda...

At least I'm done with X-Wing...

39 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

This.

I've run two tournaments so far where we allow proxies of multiple upgrades as long as you own one copy.

This is going to be fairly common at low level events.

I totally see store championships run like this.

maybe not regionals, definitely not nationals or worlds.

i play casual and it's a proxy life for me. Heck I even proxies in men of Gondor and Moria goblins already haha

I agree with the OP, but I have already put time and energy into the game so I won't be getting off the boat...yet.
this was not what I expected when they said "you won't need to buy other factions to get all the upgrades" ...how many months does one faction have to wait to get that ONE upgrade they want / need?

44 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Ok then, I am off the Runewars boat.

Were you only thinking about playing the Waiqar? and if so were you planning on always running 3 units of archers? Every card has not been revealed, but everyone is just looking at Combat Ingenuity and treating it like it is the only option in list building...I don't understand...yeah it is an awesome card and the results are clear that if you are running 2x1 archers it is a really good option and I plan on running a lot of it, and I am upset that I have 3 cores worth of archers that I will probably be buying more archers then I would possibly field in current lists, however...In a few months we will see new stuff for Waiqar, we will possibly see more copies of CI in other expansions, and if you haven't actually bought into the game then you aren't in the boat where buying a few boxes of archers will hurt you...Honestly at this point with the new expansions coming I wish I had waited to get the expansions instead of 3 cores, then just fill out the larger units by buying broken down cores...Is there a cost to this game, yes, is there a phantom cost like x-wing where a ship might be terrible until another card comes out from a set you would never need? no

2 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

...how many months does one faction have to wait to get that ONE upgrade they want / need?

If you are referring to column tactics thats already coming out for Daqan at the same time as the Latari get it...soooooo yeah...it seems like the plan is waves will be getting the same neutral upgrades across the faction...fire rune and wind rune have already been shown in waiqar and daqan release so until it doesn't seem like this is going to be the case can you please stop crying wolf that FFG is lying to you? They said they were going to not make you buy out of faction and they are now showing you that you shouldn't have to buy out of faction even to get a card first...

@jek Isn't Combat Ingenuity a Waiqar exclusive?

@TallGiraffe yes but I mean it will be in other waiqar packs in the future to avoid having to just buy more and more archers

Heck! There is even a waiqar specific training with the reanimates box so MAYBE it is there too!?...

I understand people wanting to wait when only the core is out, its reasonable you want to see if the game will be good you want to get in when you have some options...I wish FFG had released some extra units at launch that would have been cool but that isn't how they handled their games in the past. I do wish that they had launched all the factions from the get go because people I have come to like on this forum @Budgernaut i'm looking at you, would be playing the game with the faction they are waiting for. But is this the point where you should just be like, nope this game is going to suck or cost to much because FFG is deceptive? No. Basically @Embir82 if you are interested in the setting and like fantasy just wait a few months. I don't think the way they package stuff for this game will be anything like X-wing, and I like x-wing. I just think once the first set of expansions are out there will be a lot of customization you can do with the upgrades and there will be other choices than the CI archer spam.

The only issue I have seen so far is that you will want upgrade cards from expansions for units in the core set and you will always be short.

For example with the Core Set you have an Archer unit, but no combat ingenuity, so you buy the expansion but you only get 1 copy. hence you have 2 2x1 units but only one of them has combat ingenuity.

In the end, while far more expensive (I calculate about 250% more) to not have a mismatch of cards vs. field-able units its better to skip the core set and buy only the expansion sets and buy the Essentials Pack.

Its worth pointing out the most important cards (the future meta cards for organized play) and been specifically put into the expansion packs to create a situation of having to buy packs for cards, even though FFG has explicitly said they wouldn't do that. Though in their defense they said you wouldn't have to buy other factions to have all the cards, they didn't actually say they wouldn't arrange the meta to ensure you would have to do it anyway.

Its annoying, they should simply allow us to buy the cards, I don't understand why they always have to make this **** so **** complicated and F'ed up.

1 minute ago, BigKahuna said:

Though in their defense they said you wouldn't have to buy other factions to have all the cards, they didn't actually say they wouldn't arrange the meta to ensure you would have to do it anyway.

Yeah, "You don't have to buy models to get a specific card" is light-years away from "You won't have to buy models outside your faction to get the cards you need." If anyone thought they wouldn't have to buy packs for cards, they were deceiving themselves because we all know how FFG does miniatures games and we all knew that expansions would come up with upgrade cards.

4 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

Yeah, "You don't have to buy models to get a specific card" is light-years away from "You won't have to buy models outside your faction to get the cards you need." If anyone thought they wouldn't have to buy packs for cards, they were deceiving themselves because we all know how FFG does miniatures games and we all knew that expansions would come up with upgrade cards.

Well no one has to do that, I can get a 25 cards printed at my local printing shop for 5 bucks that will come out the same quality that FFG can produce anyway and I promise you even under a microscope you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between "official" and "proxy". Nothing on gods green earth could get me to buy a box of models for the cards, HELL TO THE NO.

I will happily drop my entire bank account on good solid games, but I will have none of this kind of BS.