The problems with the whole "Let's make very strong Shadowlands cards that will tempt the players because it makes their deck stronger but will have corrupted consequences in the story" are :

- the players that will win events with storyline consequences have to care about the story. Otherwise, they are just super strong cards that have no "side cost". It was seen several times in AEG's time, it will be the same here: not everyone cares about the story, far from it. And when those players win story prizes and it corrupts the clan they played, it "punishes" players from that clan who care about the story and who purposely "weaken" their deck to avoid the corruption when this limit is non-existant to those who don't care.

- it assumes that FFG's storyteam will want to have that degree of impact from tournaments on the storyline, which is far from confirmed. And seeing the mess AEG's L5R story became thanks to the over-involvement of players, I really hope that FFG will vastly reduce it.

IMHO, even if the notion of tainted/corrupted deck was fun, it caused too many problems compared to what it brought to the game, so I hope we won't see it back.

15 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

The problems with the whole "Let's make very strong Shadowlands cards that will tempt the players because it makes their deck stronger but will have corrupted consequences in the story" are :

- the players that will win events with storyline consequences have to care about the story. Otherwise, they are just super strong cards that have no "side cost". It was seen several times in AEG's time, it will be the same here: not everyone cares about the story, far from it. And when those players win story prizes and it corrupts the clan they played, it "punishes" players from that clan who care about the story and who purposely "weaken" their deck to avoid the corruption when this limit is non-existant to those who don't care.

- it assumes that FFG's storyteam will want to have that degree of impact from tournaments on the storyline, which is far from confirmed. And seeing the mess AEG's L5R story became thanks to the over-involvement of players, I really hope that FFG will vastly reduce it.

IMHO, even if the notion of tainted/corrupted deck was fun, it caused too many problems compared to what it brought to the game, so I hope we won't see it back.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the older Shadowlands cards from the later 90s somewhat "powerful" enough to tempt players?

Late-run AEG didn't factor deck construction unless the winner specifically requested it.

Which made sense.

5 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the older Shadowlands cards from the later 90s somewhat "powerful" enough to tempt players?

Yeah, there was a time where the tainted/corrupted deckbuilding was directly send to the story, and it caused the problems I mentionned several time. That's probably one of the main reason they decided to stop doing it after a while.

4 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Yeah, there was a time where the tainted/corrupted deckbuilding was directly send to the story, and it caused the problems I mentionned several time. That's probably one of the main reason they decided to stop doing it after a while.

About how many problems? Was it a MtG Affinity problem where the vast field was pretty much one deck? Of course the big difference between the two games was the story and loyalty element.

I'm pretty sure that any deck which included more than 2 Shadowlands cards was considered "corrupt" and was listed as such when determining story results.

What prevented the first run of decks in Imperial Edition from going all in on the Shadowlands was likely a combination of things. There wasn't a stronghold amongst the original 6 that could support the amount of honor loss caused by decks with heavy Shadowlands presence. The unique rules made Oni no Akuma a very risky proposition. The cards pool was limited and most of the gold schemes were rather weak as well as their being fewer options to using a mix of Shadowlands and non-Shadowlands. There were also cards that wiped out all Shadowlands card for free....so it was a rather risky option few people were willing to try.

Ruined Fortress of the Scorpion changed this and I'd argue it's one of the best stongholds for Shadowlands of all time...but once it got replaced by the weaker Junzo's Army shadowlands was never as competitive again.

I still believe there will be Shadowlands cards I the core as I can see them being much easier to balance within the design of Nu5R.

Man I hope we get an Ogere bushi card in the core. That was my favorite thing out of ivory edition of old5r all the crazy decks that had him as this dueling wreaking ball lol.

3 hours ago, Fumi said:

I think Kinzen's point was the story team acts as the GM. Which they always have all along, in regards to the ongoing plot.

Also, just because there isn't a villain faction it doesn't mean you can't play villains. For example, if you have X number of shadowlands cards in your deck, you count as a villain. In other storylines Kolat cards could fill that role, etc.

This also solves the 7 vs 1 problem that otherwise comes up with a villain faction, because you can turn any faction into a villain "faction", and identifying the good guys isn't as easy as looking at their mon. Plus, it helps represent the temptation of corruption, as long as there are villain cards that are good.

P.S. you might want to turn the smug condescension down a notch. You're really not doing yourself any favors with it.

+1 to every bit of this, down to the commas.

Shadowlands/Maho cards should exist, at some point at least. But I would hope for them to lure the players not for being more powerful than the regular stuff but for giving options that regularly you would not have access to (like that limitation to 1 outside clan in conflict with influence). Some stuff, like Onis, would have to be stronger because reasons but regular Samurai Joe with some taint is far from being powerful as an Oni. He may be able to perform unexpected (tainted) tricks but that is.

About how FFG should handle possible corruptions, probably by Deus Ex Machina rather than deck building or story prizes. But as a story player, I would miss the "Oh, noes! If I use those cards I am corrupt!" (or kolat, being a Unicorn and that tempting Kolat Assassin ). Not that I would miss much.

1 hour ago, KerenRhys said:

The problems with the whole "Let's make very strong Shadowlands cards that will tempt the players because it makes their deck stronger but will have corrupted consequences in the story" are :

- the players that will win events with storyline consequences have to care about the story. Otherwise, they are just super strong cards that have no "side cost". It was seen several times in AEG's time, it will be the same here: not everyone cares about the story, far from it. And when those players win story prizes and it corrupts the clan they played, it "punishes" players from that clan who care about the story and who purposely "weaken" their deck to avoid the corruption when this limit is non-existant to those who don't care.

- it assumes that FFG's storyteam will want to have that degree of impact from tournaments on the storyline, which is far from confirmed. And seeing the mess AEG's L5R story became thanks to the over-involvement of players, I really hope that FFG will vastly reduce it.

IMHO, even if the notion of tainted/corrupted deck was fun, it caused too many problems compared to what it brought to the game, so I hope we won't see it back.

These are legitimate concerns. Balancing corrupt cards well would be critical. I feel the best way to do it would be to, rather than make the corrupt cards stronger, let them do something you can't do any other way. So going corrupt would expand your options, rather than just let you field stronger personalities or whatnot.

Alternatively, rather than going by cards in your deck, there could be some kind of stronghold modifier that makes your deck villainous. Then it would be a pretty simple choice on whether you're corrupt or not - either play that modifier or don't. Either the modifier would contain both benefits and drawbacks, or there would be alternative non-corrupt modifiers you could play instead that are just as good.

I think the design of Nu5r makes shadowlands cards much easier to integrate and balance appropriately.

No honor requirements means that every clan has equal access to them.

The fact that honor is integrated into the card economy means that honor losses have a real cost. So shadowlands cards can have a lower fate cost to balance their honor hit, and then they become balanced overall, while still having an appealing and thematic 'shortcut' aspect to them.

Instead of new factions I would like to see something like All Clan Senseis which focus on specific traits: Ronin, Imperial, Shadowlands, Naga, Nezumi, ... perhaps even Monk, Spirit and Ninja.

The only faction that I really want to see would be the minor clan alliance. Simply to show off the variety of Rokugans minor clans.

17 minutes ago, Yandia said:

The only faction that I really want to see would be the minor clan alliance. Simply to show off the variety of Rokugans minor clans.

My idea for a Minor Clan Alliance deluxe expansion would be that it would be a "neutral" expansion with sets of Minor Clan dynasty characters (each with their own Clan's mon markings) that can only be included in Great Clan decks you use a certain Minor Clan Sensei. Sensei would also allow inclusion of that Minor Clan's actions without spending Influence at the cost of having a minimum number of that clan's cards in the conflict deck. The Minor Clan Alliance Stronghold would allow the creation of decks using only Minor Clan cards.

1 hour ago, Fumi said:

These are legitimate concerns. Balancing corrupt cards well would be critical. I feel the best way to do it would be to, rather than make the corrupt cards stronger, let them do something you can't do any other way. So going corrupt would expand your options, rather than just let you field stronger personalities or whatnot.

Alternatively, rather than going by cards in your deck, there could be some kind of stronghold modifier that makes your deck villainous. Then it would be a pretty simple choice on whether you're corrupt or not - either play that modifier or don't. Either the modifier would contain both benefits and drawbacks, or there would be alternative non-corrupt modifiers you could play instead that are just as good.

I suppose you could create some personalities that have the option of coming into play as corrupted or not. If corrupted, they get a card token like the honored/dishonored, and some other effect.

Keeping the strongholds the same is fine without having a corrupted or non-corrupted version (not counting an alt art version that could be made via tourney kits) just to provide some measure of mystery to the opponent. At the same time, I wouldn't mind seeing a shadowlands Clan stronghold. I did love the Kitsu Tombs. I'll put here for those who didn't know it.

On a side not, I'd love to see the old rpg Ogre Bushi school and a possible plot line of redeemed Ogres. Probably wouldn't happen but we all love the redeemed evil stories. I quite liked Oni no Okura.

Personally, I'd be fine with no additional faction. I've been a Mantis players for years, and Aramasu and Yoritomo are still my favorite 21 Mantis guys, but a reboot is a fine opportunity to keep the story about 7 great clans.

12 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

My idea for a Minor Clan Alliance deluxe expansion would be that it would be a "neutral" expansion with sets of Minor Clan dynasty characters (each with their own Clan's mon markings) that can only be included in Great Clan decks you use a certain Minor Clan Sensei. Sensei would also allow inclusion of that Minor Clan's actions without spending Influence at the cost of having a minimum number of that clan's cards in the conflict deck. The Minor Clan Alliance Stronghold would allow the creation of decks using only Minor Clan cards.

This. !!!

What you are suggesting would also greatly benefit the 7 Great Clans as it (the Deluxe set) would allow ample room for releasing additional Neutral cards which would further support the existing Clans.

Excellent suggestion!

As for the Minor Clans I can see some coming back:

Fox: Shugenja. Healing (ie: bow and/or discard this personality to put fate on another personality), kitsune shapeshifters.

Mantis: Military. Clan could be founded by a ronin who united some costal fishing villages who rely on piracy during hard times.

Sparrow: Political. A rural minor clan with storytellers who rely on oral traditions to learn anything.

Hare: Scouts. With no idea how big a role Shadowlands and Kolots will play this would be their role.

Those are the four I would like to see in the card game then the rest introduced in the RPG, though the Wasp (depending if there is going to be ranged attacks in the LCG and how they work) or the Badger could replace the Mantis on this list (The Wasp could also replace the Hare as the specialty clan).

Dragonfly, Centipede, and Bat were all Shugenja mostly clans that I don’t know if you could mechanicly include in the card game.

For most of the CCG the Boar was dormant, the Oriole was a clan of swordsmiths and would duplcate the Agasha Swordsmith card, and the Tortoise may not have a reason to exist depending on the history of FFG’s Rokugan.

47 minutes ago, ldorn said:

Dragonfly, Centipede, and Bat were all Shugenja mostly clans that I don’t know if you could mechanicly include in the card game

Presumably the same way you can mechanically include the Phoenix.

One thing to remember is that Provinces and Holdings can also be Clan aligned. Minor Clans will be defined not just by their characters but also their Events, holding and provinces.

That said, I imagine they can bring in the following minor clans fairly easy:

• Fox - Shugenja dynasty characters with a good number of animal spirit conflict characters
• Mantis - Pirate military characters that gain benefits when attacking provinces with holdings (to represent raiding)
• Sparrow - low glory political characters with a "humble" honor focus
• Centipede - political shugenja with a honor focus
• Hare - Military with a fair amount of "ninja" tricks
• Dragonfly - shugenja with a divination focus.
• Oriole - artisans with a number of good attachments.
• Badger - solid military characters
• Wasp - Bounty hunters that are good at going after dishonored personalities
• Monkey - Cheap characters that get better the more Fate invested in them

3 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

One thing to remember is that Provinces and Holdings can also be Clan aligned. Minor Clans will be defined not just by their characters but also their Events, holding and provinces.

That said, I imagine they can bring in the following minor clans fairly easy:

• Fox - Shugenja dynasty characters with a good number of animal spirit conflict characters
• Mantis - Pirate military characters that gain benefits when attacking provinces with holdings (to represent raiding)
• Sparrow - low glory political characters with a "humble" honor focus
• Centipede - political shugenja with a honor focus
• Hare - Military with a fair amount of "ninja" tricks
• Dragonfly - shugenja with a divination focus.
• Oriole - artisans with a number of good attachments.
• Badger - solid military characters
• Wasp - Bounty hunters that are good at going after dishonored personalities
• Monkey - Cheap characters that get better the more Fate invested in them

You made the same omission that I did: If the Toritaka aren't a Crab Family, what kind of Military would they be as a Minor Clan?

48 minutes ago, ldorn said:

You made the same omission that I did: If the Toritaka aren't a Crab Family, what kind of Military would they be as a Minor Clan?

The Falcon clan are a bit tricky. How do you represent Ghostbusting Bushi when there are no ghosts to bust?

8 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

The Falcon clan are a bit tricky. How do you represent Ghostbusting Bushi when there are no ghosts to bust?

Whatever can bust a ghost can most likely bust a bushi too.

9 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

The Falcon clan are a bit tricky. How do you represent Ghostbusting Bushi when there are no ghosts to bust?

Great!

Now I know what yo print on my t-shirt when I go to the next con. ?