I was surprised to hear some much negativity at worlds regarding the scum hunter "meta". Two things to consider, 2 of the 3 maps are thematically relative to scum hunters. Anchorhead Cantina a wretched hive of scum and villainy. And Jabba's Palace...enough said. The second thing is to consider that there are at least iconic star wars characters involved in the games, weequays, Jabba, Greedo, etc. Take a look at the top 10 lists for X-wing. Only one pilot from the movies (Biggs) and he dies in Star Wars. I'm not trying to slight X-wing as I think it's still a fun game when it's played against players with integrity. But IA is in a stellar place right now. I still maintain that it's 4 hobbies in one. So stop spoiling it all you naysayers. Say yay! LOL

So to summarize, it's healthy for the game to have 15 players out of the final 16 at Worlds playing practically identical scum lists because two of the maps in rotation are "on Tatooine" and hence it's thematically appropriate?

I think the Skirmish game is in a significant transition. The figures in Jabba's Realm wave and the rule for scoring victory points per defeated figure changed the game in good and bad ways. The kinks are going to get worked out as each new wave is released.

I can understand folks looking at the Worlds' top 16 lists and feeling frustrated at the lack of creativity. But the lack of creativity was due to the singular goal of Worlds: Win. As the game expands, we'll still see lots of similar lists at Regionals and Worlds because winning is the goal. The same thing happens in nearly every nerdy strategy game - MtG, X-Wing, etc.

What I expect is that this Droid wave, the Heart of the Empire Wave and (hopefully) the next Force User wave will provide more options on equal footing for different army types. We're already seeing this in the Darth Vader skirmish upgrade attachment, in the new Power Tokens mechanic and in the Force User A&Vs packs.

It could be Worlds 2018 Top 16 is gonna still have lots of mirrored lists. But there'll be new options that keep the game fun and fresh to play when you're not trying to beat DT.

For the record, it wasn't necessarily negativity more so criticism. I think you can accurately criticize something without being negative, that is always my goal anyway. So please don't paint the discussion with such broad strokes.

Most of us stated what we didn't like about Worlds, which was mostly true, but then said "Oh well, looks like the next few waves should fix those problems, FFG is on top of it, lets promote more diverse lists next year!". That doesn't seem overly 'negative' to me..

Also your point about X-Wing isn't really accurate for IA, we don't have the same figures to draw from.

Just to be clear, I don't think Skirmish is in a terrible place. I think it needs some work to get to a good state, but we're talking "there are several archetypes in each faction that could use a key piece or two to get to where they need to be", not "everything but scum hunters is literally unplayable". I believe you can field competitive lists out of each faction right now, and I don't think Worlds 2017 really represented the state of the game.

I just find the argument that the game is healthy because the lists are the same faction as the maps currently in rotation a little ... odd.

Though I have little Skirmish experience, from what I can see, Jabba's Realm really gave the Scum/Hunter type a shot in the arm. Perhaps too much, right now.

And from what I can gather from Wave 9, it looks like droids are suddenly going to become a very appealing type, as well.

However- from what little we've seen of HotE, it looks like there's a clever and even distribution of types. Wookies, heavies, vehicles, tons of types look like they're getting bolstered by units that look like they'll really be able to hold their own. Hopefully, now that the game seems to not be as beholden to the settings of the films, FFG will have a little more creativity to really branch out and make more variety in list viability. After all- it would've been kind of strange if a Jabba's Realm themed release didn't overpower scum hunters a little, I suppose.

2 hours ago, squirrelfox said:

So to summarize, it's healthy for the game to have 15 players out of the final 16 at Worlds playing practically identical scum lists because two of the maps in rotation are "on Tatooine" and hence it's thematically appropriate?

Well what did you expect? I have to believe all the designers are getting kudos right now. Release scum. Make people buy it. Mission accomplished.

One of the big time skirmish players mentioned something in one of the Worlds threads (sorry, can't remember who or where) that rang true for me. The lists that we saw in the finals, particularly those with units like eWeequays, aren't necessarily more powerful than other lists but rather are more consistent.

The eQuays reroll not only gives them a more consistent output on their own dice, but also lets them effectively cancel the dreaded dodge on the white die or ensure that they roll enough accuracy. Add in the focus die from Jabba/the rebel care package and this becomes even more true (the more dice you roll, the less the variance).

Contrast that with something like the Bantha, who can either wreck face or completely flame out based on whether you can draw the command cards you need (look out if a good bantha player gets both Jundland Terrors!). Or look at the heavy stormtroopers, who can put some major blast damage through and change the course of a match - assuming, of course, that they roll a surge and get enough accuracy on their single blue die. Or a trained rancor, who can either make a bunch of 5+ block rolls and be impossible to take down or make a bunch of 2-block rolls and get swept away by a few shots before doing much of anything at all.

Now if I were going to play in a tournament, I'd probably do just as well with a decent list made up of any of those units as I would with one of the worlds lists that we saw. That's because I'm just an average player and variance isn't necessarily a negative thing for me: I'm just as likely to beat a better opponent with a lucky die roll as I am to lose to a worse opponent with an unlucky one.

But the situation would be different if I knew that I was a world-class player and that, tactically, I'm good enough to beat the vast majority of players that I come up against. If I'm DTDanix and I'm going into a premier tournament where a few unlucky losses in the first round could knock me out, I'm absolutely going to bring the list that I think is going to play the most consistently game in and game out. Why risk losing because of a bad card draw when I could just use an army that doesn't overly rely on the card draw and win with my superior tactical play?

TL;DR:

I'm not so sure that the "meta" of the top-16 at worlds is necessarily a true representation of the "meta" of the game as a whole.

Considering that previous metas consisted of 4x4 Guard and Officers, and then Trooper spam, I don't think the fact that many lists included Weequay Pirates makes all those lists cookie-cutter in the least. I think that, despite 15 of 16 lists being Scum at Worlds, those 15 lists still had a lot of diversity within them.

22 minutes ago, Smashotron said:

Considering that previous metas consisted of 4x4 Guard and Officers, and then Trooper spam, I don't think the fact that many lists included Weequay Pirates makes all those lists cookie-cutter in the least. I think that, despite 15 of 16 lists being Scum at Worlds, those 15 lists still had a lot of diversity within them.

That's what I saw too. In fact, it was also crazy how the games swung in scoring. It was frickin exciting.

I feel like this discussion is just going to go in circles here as people only see what they want to see, and I will respect the fact this is meant to be a 'positive' thread even though our view points have been far from negative.

Refer to posts in this thread for rebuttals to your "using 1 or 2 different deployment cards from your opponent creates A LOT OF diversity!!!" statements

Enjoy your thread

So here's the thing about the "meta game";

The phrase seems to imply to people that we're talking about "strongest", "most competitive" lists, when it essentially refers to the idea of the game outside the game.

Quick, reductive illustration;

Take scissor-rock-paper; you sit down for a game, you choose one of three possible "attacks" and on the count of three, make the appropriate hand gesture while your opponent does the same, at the same time. Compare results.

In a vacuum there is no clear stronger choice of the three options, but the meta game might inform your decision making process on what to pick beyond just blindly guessing;

Is your opponent Bart Simpson, a person known to put a lot of faith in rock's ability to win? Choose paper and you'll likely defeat him. What if your local playgroup consists of a lot of Full House/Dave Coulier fans? Put up rock and you'll probably beat them.

So back to IA, as it's been stated above, the eWeeqs backboned 15/16 Worlds lists because they're consistent, which I agree with, for the most part.

Here's a few other reasons that may have gone into that decision;

"I like Jabba the Hutt"

"I like Rancors"

"I like Banthas"

"These new Hunter cards are super keen"

"I'm tired of playing Troopers"

"I'm tired of playing Jedi Luke and Rangers"

...and so on.

Now for the first three points, that means you're running Mercenaries, with your Crime Boss/Monster of choice, and building around it from there. The eWeeqs offer a 1pt cost reduction over HK's which lets you squeeze in a couple of extra points into your list that wasn't possible before. So now you've got 2x eWeeqs plus Jabba and/or a big monster. Whatever's left over will be filled in with some other crap and there's your list.

So superficially it comes off as a group think thing, but popular characters/creatures can influence that as well.

For the Hunter card newness, this sort of ties in to switching up list types you're burnt out on as well, you're looking at those cards, recognizing their ability to make great clutch plays in the game, and saying "alright, where are all my hunters at?!" and realizing they're all hiding out in Mercenaries.

As a sub point to the Hunter cards, you may have noticed that Smugglers got a bunch of loot too, and since Jabba and eWeeqs are both Smugglers and Hunters (as is Greedo and others), it means you can run a pretty similar list and still have a very different Command Deck, which is almost never discussed when we talk about "Top Lists".

Sure, the Inquisitor is a Hunter, but to invest all those cards into one guy is really hoping they don't delete him from the board before you Assassinate their Luke with your Heightened Reflexes which were all made possible because you had the right Tools For the Job.

If you're stacking those cards in, you want a bunch of Hunters to make use of them, so you're going to Mercenaries. You're picking the eWeeqs because it saves you 1pt per group over HK's and you might also just want a change from running HK's which were ubiquitous in Mercs up until now.

In the interest of full disclosure, here's what I ran;

Jabba, Rancor, Beast Tamer, 2x eWeeqs, Vinto, Greedo.

Before I even bothered to consider my options and think about "the meta", what's competitive, etc, the first thought was "RANCOR, SMASH!!!!"

So now that I've decided to forgo any good sense to look into whether this is a good idea or not, i just worked back from there. Jabba Ordering a Hit with the Rancor sounds like the worst thing ever. Vinto is great utility at 5pts. eWeeqs leave room for some Hired Guns which I decided to swap out for ol' Quick Draw Greedo, and there you go.

7 Rounds of Swiss later, the only thing that consistently happened in my games was that I drew Crush the instant my Rancor was removed from the board.

Also my Greedo Dodged Vinto's Rapid Fire, Dodged a rival Greedo's attack, then Dodged the same rival Greedo's attack I provoked with Slow on the Draw. This all happened in the same round. So there's that.

I didn't have any games where I just got completely blown up, except the one where ironically my Greedo dodged 4 attacks in a row, so who knows what would have happened to me and the standings if that Crush showed up even once in one of those games? I'd probably have some baller dice, that's what.

So now we have Droids getting some more tools, IG is back, we'll have some more viable Force Users added to the game, and a necro'ed Vader to make use of the existing pool of Force User cards, and probably get a couple more. Smugglers have good cards too, by the way, just not many great units, although an allusion for a Han/Chewie fix in Heart will bring that up again...

@cleardave I remember the quad dodge game that was crazy!

20 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

I feel like this discussion is just going to go in circles here as people only see what they want to see, and I will respect the fact this is meant to be a 'positive' thread even though our view points have been far from negative.

Refer to posts in this thread for rebuttals to your "using 1 or 2 different deployment cards from your opponent creates A LOT OF diversity!!!" statements

Enjoy your thread

Well that's 4 minutes of my life I won't get back. Let me summarize. Some guy asked about World's top 16 lists. You set a dumpster fire complaining about the meta. Some guys pointed out that they did well without cutting cookies (actually I liked the guy's list with Shyla and Gammorean Guards). Some guy cheated at X-wing (shocking), but got caught.

I don't play competitively. In fact, I hardly get to play at all, being more of a painter and collector.

So from something of an outsiders perspective, I do raise an eyebrow at the lack of real diversity amongst the top 16. In all competitive gaming systems you see these swings from time to time - sometimes it's caused by the "new and shiny" syndrome, like with a new codex, other times it's caused by issues around points costing, unit availability or badly worded rules. You'll probably never eliminate it; all you can hope is that the rules system/ product line and the community can continue to adapt to reset the meta.

The one area where I do have concerns is where a player is seriously able to reduce the random element created by the dice. There's a point where reducing randomness reflects quality gameplay and list design, and that should be applauded - but when a unit has such a potent built-in ability as we're now seeing with the eQuays then that's an issue that will need addressing.

I could probably just about accept 15 of 16 lists being from the same faction - I'd still raise an eyebrow but would have faith that the meta will reset eventually - but when those 15 lists are mostly built around the same core concept and unit selection? That's when things have swung too far.

(PS. My other bugbear is the whole temporary alliance affair - I hate systems that let you do this type of thing on principle).

5 minutes ago, Masterchiefspiff said:

@cleardave I remember the quad dodge game that was crazy!

So right after you sent me further down the standings, I had Greedo do something similarly heroic in the next game. I also lost that one in spite of how annoying his Dodge luck was.

The rest of the games that day were pretty convincing wins where Greedo didn't specifically do anything of note.

The moral of the story is that going HAM with Greedo will lead to my inevitable defeat, so as to keep the karmic scales balanced.

The final game that day I just played him conservatively and it all worked out. **** you, Greedo!

31 minutes ago, cleardave said:

So here's the thing about the "meta game";

The phrase seems to imply to people that we're talking about "strongest", "most competitive" lists, when it essentially refers to the idea of the game outside the game.

Quick, reductive illustration;

Take scissor-rock-paper; you sit down for a game, you choose one of three possible "attacks" and on the count of three, make the appropriate hand gesture while your opponent does the same, at the same time. Compare results.

In a vacuum there is no clear stronger choice of the three options, but the meta game might inform your decision making process on what to pick beyond just blindly guessing;

Is your opponent Bart Simpson, a person known to put a lot of faith in rock's ability to win? Choose paper and you'll likely defeat him. What if your local playgroup consists of a lot of Full House/Dave Coulier fans? Put up rock and you'll probably beat them.

So back to IA, as it's been stated above, the eWeeqs backboned 15/16 Worlds lists because they're consistent, which I agree with, for the most part.

Here's a few other reasons that may have gone into that decision;

"I like Jabba the Hutt"

"I like Rancors"

"I like Banthas"

"These new Hunter cards are super keen"

"I'm tired of playing Troopers"

"I'm tired of playing Jedi Luke and Rangers"

...and so on.

Now for the first three points, that means you're running Mercenaries, with your Crime Boss/Monster of choice, and building around it from there. The eWeeqs offer a 1pt cost reduction over HK's which lets you squeeze in a couple of extra points into your list that wasn't possible before. So now you've got 2x eWeeqs plus Jabba and/or a big monster. Whatever's left over will be filled in with some other crap and there's your list.

So superficially it comes off as a group think thing, but popular characters/creatures can influence that as well.

For the Hunter card newness, this sort of ties in to switching up list types you're burnt out on as well, you're looking at those cards, recognizing their ability to make great clutch plays in the game, and saying "alright, where are all my hunters at?!" and realizing they're all hiding out in Mercenaries.

As a sub point to the Hunter cards, you may have noticed that Smugglers got a bunch of loot too, and since Jabba and eWeeqs are both Smugglers and Hunters (as is Greedo and others), it means you can run a pretty similar list and still have a very different Command Deck, which is almost never discussed when we talk about "Top Lists".

Sure, the Inquisitor is a Hunter, but to invest all those cards into one guy is really hoping they don't delete him from the board before you Assassinate their Luke with your Heightened Reflexes which were all made possible because you had the right Tools For the Job.

If you're stacking those cards in, you want a bunch of Hunters to make use of them, so you're going to Mercenaries. You're picking the eWeeqs because it saves you 1pt per group over HK's and you might also just want a change from running HK's which were ubiquitous in Mercs up until now.

In the interest of full disclosure, here's what I ran;

Jabba, Rancor, Beast Tamer, 2x eWeeqs, Vinto, Greedo.

Before I even bothered to consider my options and think about "the meta", what's competitive, etc, the first thought was "RANCOR, SMASH!!!!"

So now that I've decided to forgo any good sense to look into whether this is a good idea or not, i just worked back from there. Jabba Ordering a Hit with the Rancor sounds like the worst thing ever. Vinto is great utility at 5pts. eWeeqs leave room for some Hired Guns which I decided to swap out for ol' Quick Draw Greedo, and there you go.

7 Rounds of Swiss later, the only thing that consistently happened in my games was that I drew Crush the instant my Rancor was removed from the board.

Also my Greedo Dodged Vinto's Rapid Fire, Dodged a rival Greedo's attack, then Dodged the same rival Greedo's attack I provoked with Slow on the Draw. This all happened in the same round. So there's that.

I didn't have any games where I just got completely blown up, except the one where ironically my Greedo dodged 4 attacks in a row, so who knows what would have happened to me and the standings if that Crush showed up even once in one of those games? I'd probably have some baller dice, that's what.

So now we have Droids getting some more tools, IG is back, we'll have some more viable Force Users added to the game, and a necro'ed Vader to make use of the existing pool of Force User cards, and probably get a couple more. Smugglers have good cards too, by the way, just not many great units, although an allusion for a Han/Chewie fix in Heart will bring that up again...

I agree. Man you're an f'in eloquent dude. You have a great attitude about the game. People play meta because they think they have to. They see others win (or read about it online) and think they have to do the same. In most cases, it's true. If you want to win the dice at Worlds, you better play what everyone else is having success with. I've all but quit X-wing because I don't want to play meta. It's not fun and has nothing to do with the Star Wars at this point. NOTHING. My point at the start of this thread was that meta in IA does have a thematic component. Jabba and his thugs are gonna rule. Plain and simple.

3 minutes ago, ellhaynes said:

The one area where I do have concerns is where a player is seriously able to reduce the random element created by the dice. There's a point where reducing randomness reflects quality gameplay and list design, and that should be applauded - but when a unit has such a potent built-in ability as we're now seeing with the eQuays then that's an issue that will need addressing.

...

(PS. My other bugbear is the whole temporary alliance affair - I hate systems that let you do this type of thing on principle).

There are just so many different ways to build a Command Deck around a Mercenary faction list that has that eWeequay foundation. Going nuts with all the Hunter cards to start, but then you have other options that make it behave very differently.

Got a Bantha/Rancor? You're putting in 2x Jundland, possibly Crush, and Crush for sure with the Rancor. Right there you're cutting out points for other cards the pirates would use.

You could also focus on a dirty little combo involving Vinto and the eWeequays with Strength in Numbers at the start of the round to vaporize a bunch of your opponent's stuff before they activate (or melt their big creature). You know who you are

Or why not make room for "On the Lam" and offset the die roll in another way by having your target figure just physically remove themselves from the line of fire altogether. The best defense rolls are the ones you don't have to make at all.

As for the Temporary Alliance thing, it was definitely necessary in the Core wave to allow for some Skirmish options that would have otherwise not existed. Of course when they put that together, they probably didn't think people would be crazy enough to buy 4 Core Sets or spend a similar amount of cash on the cottage industry of Royal Guard after market sales that were going on.

Now we're stuck with it. I actually like it thematically when playing the Empire, to account for their hired scummy help, but it makes less thematic sense when Luke teams up with Jabba the Hutt to do bad things.

1 hour ago, ManateeX said:

One of the big time skirmish players mentioned something in one of the Worlds threads (sorry, can't remember who or where) that rang true for me. The lists that we saw in the finals, particularly those with units like eWeequays, aren't necessarily more powerful than other lists but rather are more consistent.

For example, I just hosted a tournament at my house with 8 guys. I was in the championship and decided to switch up my list to include the Rancor. On the first turn, he went full beastmode BRUTALITY on some jet troopers with cross training. Both dodged. Next turn, my Jedi Luke (who was stunned) got one attack off against one of those jets: DODGED. Basically a whole round was wasted.

Shiz like that CAN'T happen in the World Freaking Championships. So, personally, I understand why the Scum/hunter decks got so much love. Playing to win is different than playing for fun.

25 minutes ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

Well that's 4 minutes of my life I won't get back. Let me summarize. Some guy asked about World's top 16 lists. You set a dumpster fire complaining about the meta. Some guys pointed out that they did well without cutting cookies (actually I liked the guy's list with Shyla and Gammorean Guards). Some guy cheated at X-wing (shocking), but got caught.

And case in point.

Everyone keeps saying that 15 Worlds lists were the same or nearly identical. Would someone provide me a link to the lists for reference?

36 minutes ago, Smashotron said:

Everyone keeps saying that 15 Worlds lists were the same or nearly identical. Would someone provide me a link to the lists for reference?

More importantly, the Command Decks as well.

I feel like this "show us the lists" thing will come off like a certain American Executive Government Official Birth Certificate scandal (allegedly).

I hope I didn't just get this thread locked/me banned. I could just deleted that whole line right now instead of continuing to type this and click "Submit Reply", but if it's a dumpster fire we're after, let's really commit...

1 hour ago, cleardave said:

More importantly, the Command Decks as well.

I feel like this "show us the lists" thing will come off like a certain American Executive Government Official Birth Certificate scandal (allegedly).

I hope I didn't just get this thread locked/me banned. I could just deleted that whole line right now instead of continuing to type this and click "Submit Reply", but if it's a dumpster fire we're after, let's really commit...

Lets not.

Don't openly state you're trying to inflame a situation. It's only going to get you reported...

Lets try to discuss the situation at hand, which is wether or not the game is suffering from only a few units being viable.

Honestly, I think that there is a combination of two things;

1) very efficient units are an easy choice

2) new toys. Must play with my new toys. omg

The first is an issue, because you'll see a lot of people building around them because they're just plain very good.

The second is not an issue, and people want to play with their shiny new cool stuff.

I feel that the Skirmish lists at Worlds suffered from a mix of both, and the meta will most likely level out in coming months with the addition of more units (droids then force users)

I think it had less to do with Weequays specifically, and more to do with the powerful Hunter and Smuggler (ie, On the Lam) cards. I did really well with Jedi Luke and eRangers for a while, but the Rangers really lose a step on the new Jabba's Palace map.

Also, Devious Scheme is much more powerful on the Anchorhead Cantina map than it is on the balanced maps.

So basically, if it weren't for the change to Jabba's Palace, and if it weren't for the severe disadvantage of not being able to use Devious Scheme, then I would've certainly played Jedi Luke and eRangers. And given how that squad has performed for me until recently, I'm pretty sure that I would've made the Top 16. Of course, I'd need to make it out to Worlds in the first place, but I'm theory-crafting here anyway.

So, IMHO, it has far less to do with Weequays than it does with the other factors that seem to have gone largely unnoticed so far.

So, the reasons all the lists were similar -

1. New stuff is fun
2. New stuff is good
3. High-level players like chance mitigation
4. Map rotation favored some units more than others
5. Some fixes weren't out yet

It's funny that some people complain about how influential random effects are (lots of hate for the X-man), and other people complain about the reduction of random effects. You really can't please everyone!