Conflict Card power level

By Eugene Earnshaw, in Legend of the Five Rings: The Card Game

So, while we're waiting for the next preview, some thoughts about conflict cards.

We haven't seen many so far, but we already have a pretty good idea of the general power level, which seems to me to be notably less than fate cards in Old5R. Consider:

IKqAtGl.png

Admit Defeat is a Clan Specific card (generally more powerful than generic, one expects). It is a bow effect, which was very common in Old5R. But notice that it both has a fate cost and significant play restrictions: it can only be used while attacking AND only if there is a lone defender. The fate cost in particular is huge -- playing it costs you a full turn of a personality in play.

This tells us that there will be no generic card that reads Action: Bow a character at 0 fate cost. And a free bow card would have to have even more stringent restrictions than Admit Defeat.

Overall, it is not surprising that conflict cards are relatively weak, because card draw is potentially very abundant in New5R. If both players choose, they can draw 5 cards a turn. If there is free and easy bow or discard, there won't be any personalities left after both players play their hands.

Admit Defeat is in line with what we already know of the economy of the game: 1 fate can buy an extra turn in play for a personality, and each personality can participate in one conflict each turn. So a card that pays 1 fate to bow a personality, is (mostly) cancelling out the effect of that personality for the turn, which has a default value of 1 fate. This means that Admit Defeat does not give any overall economy advantage. What it does is gain tempo -- the opponent has paid for a character to be available for the turn, and you cancel that out with an equivalent payment.

Here's another interesting card to consider: Assassination

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Although some of the text is obscured, it's pretty easy to fill out:

Action: During a conflict, lose 3 honor. Choose a character with printed cost 2 or lower -- discard that character (limit 1 per round).

What is harder to guess is its fate cost. I think 0, 1, or 2 are all plausible, although I think 0 is unlikely. The 3 honor loss is a much more significant cost in many respects than in Old5R, since honor can be traded for card draw in the new system. Losing 3 honor will cost a player 3 cards if they are constrained by the risk of hitting 0. Interestingly, this means that the high honor clans may be more capable of running honor loss cards if they are willing to forgo winning by honor, since they have more of a cushion before losing via dishonor. My guess would be that Assassination will cost 2, since it is a generic card and likely to be a little on the weak side -- playing it will actually create an economy disadvantage unless the target has fate or attachments, and even then the loss of honor is a substantial additional cost.

Finally, consider Way of the Lion. This is a free card that gives a lion character bonus military skill equal to their printed military skill. We've seen plenty of Lions already at 3 military skill, so that will probably be its usual effectiveness == a 3+ skill bonus in military conflicts. This suggests that a generic card that gives a skill bonus might give +2 -- sort of like Charge from Old5R. But there will also be permanent attachments that grant skill bonuses, and as we have seen 2 fate can give +3 skill and a strong ability (Jade Tetsubo) or +4 skill plus an unknown ability (X Fashion). I'd suspect a generic attachment might cost 1 fate for +2 to a skill.

Now, they just need to publish the next preview so we have a bit more to go on!

Conflict cards having costs is also very important due to the fact that we no longer have a defined hand size. With many cards (especially Strategies) being free in the CCG, one could easily play an entire hand of cards and then some! In the LCG, a Scorpion player may end up with 40 cards in his hand and have a lot of options, but he'll still be limited in how many he can play based on the cost.

The number crunch has Assassination as one of the first neutral conflict cards, even before Spies at Court. Since it looks like Cost takes priority before Name Assassination should also have a fate cost of 0.

Edited by GoblinGuide

Ooh, that's interesting, GoblinGuide. That suggests they are weighting honor loss pretty heavily as a cost -- which makes a lot of sense.

1 minute ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

Ooh, that's interesting, GoblinGuide. That suggests they are weighting honor loss pretty heavily as a cost -- which makes a lot of sense.

The "Once per round" also helps, too. I can't just build up a bit of honor and then discard your entire army in one go. (Unless your entire army consists of a single character of cost 2 or lower, that is.)

5 minutes ago, GoblinGuide said:

The number crunch has Assassination as one of the first neutral conflict cards, even before Spies at Court. Since it looks like Cost takes priority before Name Assassination should also have a fate cost of 0.

Why do you think cost goes before name?

5 minutes ago, GoblinGuide said:

The number crunch has Assassination as one of the first neutral conflict cards, even before Spies at Court. Since it looks like Cost takes priority before Name Assassination should also have a fate cost of 0.

Well, Fallen in Battle seems to be before both of them, so I'm honestly not sure how they are collated.

Just now, Kakita Shiro said:

Why do you think cost goes before name?

Because Eager Scout (25) comes before Borderlands Defender (31).

3 minutes ago, Kiseki said:

Well, Fallen in Battle seems to be before both of them, so I'm honestly not sure how they are collated.

Ok, it looks like the number crunch thread has some inaccuracies. From the conflict article last week it's clear that Fallen is 211, not 201, with Spies at 209 and Assassination at 203. Looking at the previous articles I can't read Eager Scout well enough to definitively say, but Shrewd Yasuki is number 29, while Borderlands Defender is 31 so I'm still confident that Cost is ordered before Name.

1 minute ago, GoblinGuide said:

Ok, it looks like the number crunch thread has some inaccuracies. From the conflict article last week it's clear that Fallen is 211, not 201, with Spies at 209 and Assassination at 203. Looking at the previous articles I can't read Eager Scout well enough to definitively say, but Shrewd Yasuki is number 29, while Borderlands Defender is 31 so I'm still confident that Cost is ordered before Name.

Hmmmm, ok, good catch. It'll drive me nuts though if it isn't alphabetical.

4 minutes ago, GoblinGuide said:

Ok, it looks like the number crunch thread has some inaccuracies. From the conflict article last week it's clear that Fallen is 211, not 201, with Spies at 209 and Assassination at 203. Looking at the previous articles I can't read Eager Scout well enough to definitively say, but Shrewd Yasuki is number 29, while Borderlands Defender is 31 so I'm still confident that Cost is ordered before Name.

Is it? That Fallen at 201 was giving me a real headache, but I was sure that's what it said every time I checked! I'll fix it up later while updating today's article.

41 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

So, while we're waiting for the next preview, some thoughts about conflict cards.

We haven't seen many so far, but we already have a pretty good idea of the general power level, which seems to me to be notably less than fate cards in Old5R. Consider:

IKqAtGl.png

Admit Defeat is a Clan Specific card (generally more powerful than generic, one expects). It is a bow effect, which was very common in Old5R. But notice that it both has a fate cost and significant play restrictions: it can only be used while attacking AND only if there is a lone defender. The fate cost in particular is huge -- playing it costs you a full turn of a personality in play.

Nothing on Admit Defeat requires it to be played only on the attack. It's perfectly legal to play it while you are a defender (assuming you are defending alone). Given what cards we know right now, it doesn't appear to be a particularly strong move, but perhaps there will be a way to combo with it to gain honor (Cranes gaining honor while dying nobly to protect their provinces is a very old and established archetype in Old5R).

30 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

Nothing on Admit Defeat requires it to be played only on the attack. It's perfectly legal to play it while you are a defender (assuming you are defending alone). Given what cards we know right now, it doesn't appear to be a particularly strong move, but perhaps there will be a way to combo with it to gain honor (Cranes gaining honor while dying nobly to protect their provinces is a very old and established archetype in Old5R).

There's dying nobly and there's capitulation. I really hope there is no design intent to have the Crane just throw themselves onto their opponents blades.

5 minutes ago, Fumo said:

There's dying nobly and there's capitulation. I really hope there is no design intent to have the Crane just throw themselves onto their opponents blades.

It depends on the purpose. If there are reactions that trigger off your character bowing, or cards that require that you have no unbowed characters at a conflict, it may make sense.

18 minutes ago, Fumo said:

There's dying nobly and there's capitulation. I really hope there is no design intent to have the Crane just throw themselves onto their opponents blades.

Noble Sacrifice already sounds like one.

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:)

Edited by kempy
29 minutes ago, Fumo said:

There's dying nobly and there's capitulation. I really hope there is no design intent to have the Crane just throw themselves onto their opponents blades.

Well that is exactly what Kakita did and it was seen as pretty honorable :D.

Wasn't their the Asahina deck in EE that was just Crane shugenja getting killed for honor?
I dare say my people have a proud history of being classy meat shields.

12 minutes ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

Wasn't their the Asahina deck in EE that was just Crane shugenja getting killed for honor?
I dare say my people have a proud history of being classy meat shields.

Hoturi was the greatest meat shield of all.

6 hours ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

Wasn't their the Asahina deck in EE that was just Crane shugenja getting killed for honor?
I dare say my people have a proud history of being classy meat shields.

There have been a number of "suicide" or "popcorn" Crane decks over the years of the old game (nickname varied by where you played it). In general, your low-Force but high-Honor bushi would defend, die doing so, and then you'd bow a bunch of shugenja and/or poets and gain multiples of the deceased's Honor total.

latest?cb=20151115142040

?

Buy Akodo Toturi, react with Honorable Seppuku, react with Shinjin.....

Gain 14 honor :blink:

10 hours ago, Gaffa said:

There have been a number of "suicide" or "popcorn" Crane decks over the years of the old game (nickname varied by where you played it). In general, your low-Force but high-Honor bushi would defend, die doing so, and then you'd bow a bunch of shugenja and/or poets and gain multiples of the deceased's Honor total.

Was it very effective in EE? Looking through the EE card pool it looks like the honor gains from that strategy are very small.
I've always loved defensive honor running from a game play perspective (my favorite move when I started playing was Overwhelmed + Doji Nagori) but I never thought about how it made sense from a story point to gain honor from essentially offing them until now.

3 hours ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

Was it very effective in EE? Looking through the EE card pool it looks like the honor gains from that strategy are very small.
I've always loved defensive honor running from a game play perspective (my favorite move when I started playing was Overwhelmed + Doji Nagori) but I never thought about how it made sense from a story point to gain honor from essentially offing them until now.

Emerald Edition: Explodey Crane was pretty fast combined with duels and holdings. They could To Do What We Must to stop a province take and gain like 1/3 of an honor victory with their poets. Sometimes they would leave a double chi/high chi peep behind to duel. Those duels were 5 honor a pop. It was a fast clock.

Random, unrelated memory:

I actually enjoyed turning that around on Crane, running my own TDWWM and my own Be Prepared To Dig Two Graves out of Unicorn, suddenly getting a huge force bonus and chi bonus to duels, sometimes dropping a Storms of War to shut them out of the game entirely. Turned out it was also strong against basically everybody. Wow, I had fantastic tournament success with that deck. No one saw it coming.

37 minutes ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

Emerald Edition

EE is probably Emperor Edition, not Emerald.

Edited by Kakita Shiro