HedgeWizard said:

HedgeWizard said:

Hedge,

I can go to a hundred RPG sites that have the D&D logo and/or a setting logo and WotC doesn't come after this people. Why? Because it HELPS sell the game. Wotc wants players, they want people talking about their game, they want fans. GW just goes out of their way to antogonize customers. What other company in the hobby industry is asking their stuff by removed from rpggeek? It's only one.

Copyright Law exists so people don't make a PROFIT from it. Futhermore I contest using their artwork is in fact FAIR USE, since technically you are using it to teach people a game. The point is why would you attack your customer base over this? What possible motivation can their be to make your customers angry?

superklaus said:

As I've stated elsewhere, I ended my purchased of GW products in 2001. I haven't bought one single thing from them. This year I purchased blood bowl online and this game, ONLY and specifically, because they were not being managed by GW.

Rat Catcher said:

Open your rulebook to the first page. Read the copyright information at the bottom. That's who owns the material. Hint: Games Workshop.

This isn't the right place to discuss the finer points of copyrights and licensing, but there's a lot more going on here than you may realize.

Rat Catcher said:

The line appears to be drawn where you attempt to redistribute those materials online. At that point, it is no longer for personal use only. When the entire world has access to that material, you're not just walking over to your buddy's house to share it anymore. See the difference?

Sinister said:

You're mistaken, and I can give you a simple example why.

If I buy a copy of the WFRP rulebook on RPGNow, and then I post that PDF file on my website so anyone can download it for free...

Do I even need to finish that thought? Can't you see right away how that's causing problems for the copyright holder, and how it infringes on their rights? Why would anyone buy from the source ever again, if they can just get it from you for free? (The person who reuses copyright-protected material has to do quite a lot of work to prove that they're educating others, by the way.)

DagobahDave said:

no I'm not. If that wasn't the intent then the whole concept of fair use would not exist.

sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

DagobahDave said:

Dave,

Once again, I never advocated, the copying of rules and already published materials. However, to deny the format in which game componets are release in such a way that I can not share original thought within said game for non commerical non profit does fall under fair use. If I wanted to make a paraody game and wanted to make it look as much as I could like warhammer, then it's fair use.

As it stands, I may agree with much of what you say, but it's still lawful for GW to pull whatever they feel is appropriate action to "protect" their work (and by extension FFGs in this case). It may be anathema or reprehensible of just plain annoying, but the tone and tenor used to attack FFG and GW is a little off particularly when the law is on their side. If people hate it that much 1) stop buying GW properties and 2) Lobby for change.

Complaining is fine, raising the issue is great, but I wish some people would recognize what is lawful and MORE IMPORTANTLY write as adults.

(PS. I am not accusing you Sinister of not being an adult, just generally responding to the trend in internet discourse to complain in what amounts to a childish tone because a consumer didn't have their way).

Sinister said:

Were the cards on Strange Eons being used for criticism, news reporting, teaching, scholarship or research? I don't think so.

Could the cards on Strange Eons have had the exact same effect as intended if they didn't use copyright-protected artwork? Yes, they certainly could.

While I do agree that both FFG and GW have the right to push people to pull copyrighted material from the web (it might actually not hold in a court of law, but most individuals will never want to risk challenging huge companies on such an issue), I still think that it's is not in their interest to do so. I find it very unlikely that people would use a program like Strange Eons to recreate material they do not already own. It would be way easier to just photocopy the cards in that case.

So it boils down to that Hurlanc's plug-in is using backgrounds, design and symbols from the original cards. NB, he is not distributing artwork (and by that I mean the images that are on cards) that has not already been released publicly. There is no doubt that also the backgrounds and so on are copyrighted, but still I cannot see what FFG/GW are losing by letting people use these things. Of course, being from a european country means that I have very little knowledge of american copyright laws (if they stand to lose copyrights due to not defending them I guess there is not much to discuss).

Hedge, in your fan-made adventure (which is awesome by the way) you're yourself using copyrighted material in the form of dice symbols. Wouldn't you find it a little odd if this turns out to be not allowed? I really think that being able to use the minor things like dice symbols, stance pieces and possibly some card designs adds a lot to player-made content. Hopefully this is also what FFG will realise and I hope they will release some of this for general use.

Sinister said:

Sinister said:

Uploading that material back onto the internet is no longer just reproduction, its distribution (Publication).

I hope FFG can work out some solution with GW and us the customers. The value of user content can't be ignored.

I would be happy to try any of options:

• Purchase software similar to SE that licensed printing custom cards for personal use
• Use alternative artwork that was free from copyright
• Purchase A4 sheets of cards with preprinted art and no text that could be run through a printer
• Use an online "card designer" that charged me to mail out the custom card to me.

Hopefully FFG can come up with a better solution. Any suggestions?

gruntl said:

gruntl said:

This is really my point. I don't care about the artwork. The artwork wasn't the issue for me, I was under the impression the cards can't even LOOK LIKE action cards, meaning color, symbols, fonts, etc...

I disagree in some areas about fair use, but I really don't even want to have that arguement.

If this turns out to be the case I won't contribute any more fanwork to the game, and I'll remove the games I had planned to run at origins and gen con. Simply put I don't need this kind of grief. I was just a player working on some stuff on my free time, that now, may not be allowed to be shared. If that's the case, screw it, i'll just play the game with my home group.

I'm guessing the artwork is the only issue GW is objecting to. Obviously, we'll want to make our own abilities, creatures and locations to add to the game, as we would with any RPG. We just have to be careful that fan-made materials don't lead to any confusion with the genuine article. (It might be obvious to most of us that the cards from Strange Eons were fan-made, but a casual observer might mistake them for the real thing. I also didn't see any disclaimers on those cards.)

Just before the game was released, I offered up a PDF of fan-made card templates in anticipation that they'd be needed right away. They don't look very much like the actual cards from the game, but there's space to write everything you need to know, in the same place that it's found on the real cards. And they include a disclaimer, just to be safe.

I'm going to wait to see what FFG has to say about fan-made supplements before I post any new links to it, but it should give us something to work with until something better comes along.

DagobahDave said:

Same here. And for what it is worth, I think it is a shame that they requested it be pulled. I look forward to hearing what the official allowances will be as I am sure it will impact my own fan materials.

I think there is a lot of exageration in this threat.

In the core set there are cards enough to play during a year. The third editions is yet very young. Be patient. There are so many cards as spells and other actions in a classic rpg core book. There will be more official big expansions with more official cards in a future.

Regards from Spain.

arkiva said:

Play for a year? You're going to run out of meaningful advances after about month 3 if you play every week

phobiandarkmoon said:

Play every week? Are most of us playing every week? My players and I are so busy that I can't imagine playing much more than once a month. How often do the rest of you play?!

phobiandarkmoon said:

Seems unlikely to me. That's only one career change, with a few added fortune dice, stat boost, stance meter change, skill boosts, few action cards. Should hardly dent the core set / toolkit.

Llanwyre said:

It depends on the stage of one's life. At university and the unemployed period immediately afterwards, my gaming group had multiple campaigns running that all played weekly. At my peak, I was in four different campaigns different settings and rules, that ran every week, plus one-off games on Sunday afternoons at the club. We had one rule that we wouldn't game on Saturdays, so that we could pretend we had a life.

Now I play nothing, because I can't find a group. The local university has a club, but I follow their forum and it seems that never a week goes by without games getting cancelled or shifted because players or GMs have other things to do - this lack of commitment to a campaign is actually quite alien to me, but I guess that's just kids today.

As it stands, I could quite easily game at least one night a week. I'd want to play weekly to keep focus and momentum.

Cheers

Sparrow

DagobahDave said:

We NEED cards with the same layout or back cover as the original. How can you make new wounds, new miscasts if they are not the same? I know that there wouldn't be the same paper and cello on it, but it at least they are visibliy identical, it can be enough when a player draw a random card. Having a different layout is no interest.

I don't care what the hell is GW low brained marketing strategy. I will use my own cards, made with the Strange Eons plug in. I just hope someone in GW will have a synapic connexion working just once, to say "hey! Aren't we screwing up everything?"

zuzul said:

...And i think that is part of the problem, with the current plug in, i could just about re-create every card in the tool kit, and they'd end up looking pretty much like the real thing. Now lets for arguments sake say I use completely new art for action cards, but re-type in all the relevant text.

Who now has copyright on those cards? Me? FFG? GW?

If i so chose, could i not make PDF copies of all those cards in the card deck option that comes with SE and then distribute that freely across the web.. they are my cards, I made them, can't I do what i want with them?

I think that is the thing that FFG and/or GW are trying to sort out.

I think with Arkham Horror this is less of an issue, because the expansion sets that they produced had counters and other stuff that made replicating the sets less "attractive" to those so inclined.

With the current tool kit, not so, its basically a load of cards, more tokens that we already have and some character sheets that we also already have.

I'm as disappointed as anyone that FFG/GW have currently put this all on hold until they work out how to proceed with this, but I can see exactly why they have had to do it, and it is down to money, don't get me wrong, obviously it is, but none of us want the game to be pulled because its not making enough money, do we?

Hopefully there will be some kind of middle ground that allows us to create fan made products and cards, without an overall risk to the continued livlihood of FGG/GW and therefore the game

This sort of resource is what will drive the game forward. I have the utmost respect for the dedicated fans that made time to provide such a helpful tool.

I think that FFG and GW could learn from this and develop a similar resource to allow us all to customise our games! Hopefully nearly as good as the fan created material from Hurlanc. I certainly would not mind paying for a piece of software to this end - or even paying a monthly subscription if reasonably priced. If I were to pay a subscription I would expect official titbits to be released frequently as tasters for upcoming products. A combination between the software preloaded with the core sets cards, a subscription, and the downloadable core books would give you what you need to play and cost us slightly less than the physical core set. This would still generate revenue for FFG without their production costs - hence the cheaper overall price.

I suppose that this is what I would like to see if we lived in a utopian world and as such I am not holding my breath.

I am waiting to see what FFG rule on this matter and if they will ever consider doing something silimar themselves as a saleable product - which I would purchase immediately.

Alp

Nothing is Pirate Proof! Nothing!

Peacekeeper_b said:

That's what I said!

Though I haven't looked at the tool its unfortunate that it was pulled. However, I support FFG in doing what they need to do in order to fulfill their obligations to the owner of the IP...GW. FFG is a good gamer's company and I'm sure they're working hard to support the efforts of the fanbase.

At the end of the day though I don't think that the health of the game depends upon fanmade materials such as these, as fantastic as they may be. (Props to Hurlanc, the finished cards that I saw come out of the tool are really amazing). In truth, stuff like that is really only important to us online megafans. They certainly strengthen the online community and even make our personal games and sessions more enjoyable. But I've always held the belief that the active online community is only a miniscule portion of the actual player base of a game. The vast majority of players of 3rd will never even know of most of the fanmade materials. Having those materials stifled by copyright laws probably only effects the online community, not the overall health of the product.

But it does sting to have it happen and I don't personally believe that stuff like Hurlancs tool hurts sales. The scum will always be there looking for the free ride and will find ways of taking what is not theirs. Stifling the sharing of resources amongst the online community isn't going to keep that from happening.

FFG will do what they can to get us as much leeway as possible though I'm sure. GW is notoriously tightfisted with their IP though, so it could be an uphill struggle. But in the end, it is their IP to do with as they please...

donbaloo said:

Yes. Everyone please keep stating this point again and again. GW already has lawyers stating this for them over and over to FFG, so why don't gamers keep making this point to each other over and over again?

The issue is that GW is nerfing my enjoyment of the game. No other RPG I have ever purchased or played tried such control jackassery. I'm saying GW IS the kind of company that, if they found out if you were using unapproved artwork for the RPG at a covention, such as showing an orc picture from Age of Reckoning, they would ask you to stop. They probably aren't going to know you are doing that, but if they did know, they ARE the kind of company that would ask you to stop.

And for what? Let me give you an example. There's a great sci fi game I play that let's you be characters on a starship It has its own interesting universe but in order to pull people into the game I know a guy that runs it as conventions with a firefly, star wars, star trek, starship troopers, babylon 5, themes, often getting a big crowd and big interest. This guy isn't running as part of the company, he's just a gamer having fun and getting people excited about gaming.

Now, does the company have a right to ask him to stop and expressely run the game in their universe? Perhaps. Did they just shoot themselves in the foot on both sales and gamers having fun? Yes.There's a reason why games companies don't spend time controlling their IP, 1. because it's futile and someone, somewhere, and somehow is going to do it and 2. it's generating sales and excitement in your product.

FFG will probably let us use the symbols, and colors and general layout of a action card. This most likely solves the issue, and if they don't, I'm sure more people will say they have the legal right to restrict it. I don't think it being THEIR game was ever in dispute.

Ultimately, this card thing is not a big deal for me. I like everything about the game, won't cause me to stop, As I said before I stopped buying GW games because of decisions that punished players. I was under the impression, mistakenly as with any game under license, that design companies have control over their own work, at least to the point that a customer doesn't have to worry about doing something as innoncent as reposting card layouts (notice I did not say reposting actual rule cards, which is different). However, it's clear GW is back in my grill, with rules and restrictions, that no other game company has the idiocy to do.

Now, I get it. Everyone wants to make the legal point. I was just trying to enjoy myself as I do with any game. Players are not only your customer base, they are a huge resource in spreading the popularity of a game. This is just general disrespect and its disrespect enough that I have serious doubts in doing what I normally do with games I love, take them to game stores, coventions, and shows and show they off to new players.