I still think that people are being a bit too hard on FFG.

I mean, we're talking about GW here. Don't they have, like, a history of pulling this kind of uh... "censoring" of fan sites and materials?

(I'll hold off on my comments now that FFG made an announcement)

433 said:

Thank You.

Much appreciated.

Same here. Thank you.

This just means that the production of the fan material goes underground, the addon is out there and has been downloaded countless of times. I am sure that we will see it crop up, modded and improved by new people who will add the pirated typefaces and so on, why, because information wants to be free.

thanks for your attention, FFG.

433 said:

Thanks for the comment. Good to know that you're working on it.

433 said:

Thank you for responding to us directly.

Wow, I can't believe the the amount of self entitlement everyone has, not to mention the weak justifications they have for allowing copyright material to be, basically, given away for free.

What is wrong with you people?

If you have such a problem with the lack of material in the set for all players, make photocopies or get a pencil and paper and <gasp> take 5-10 minutes to write the info down. Are you really that lazy?

No wonder the companies in this hobby suffer so much, people think they have the right to produce and distribute whatever the hell they feel they should.

Pathetic, simply pathetic.

WFRP fans:

Fan content and support guidelines and information will be available on our website shortly, so fans can continue to create homebrewed content and support their favorite games in a way that conforms with FFG's licenses and practices. With the complexities of different license arrangements and the legal impact of these decisions on trademarks and copyrights, we appreciate your patience as we finalize a plan that works for all parties involved.

- Jeremy @ FFG

And has this happened because of the storm it's kicking up or was it in the pipelines all the long?

I kind of agree with you Wycked. I'm only disappointed because I'd got to thinking it was going to let go because they didn't jump on it immediately and the Arkham Horror stuff was fine.

I'm also miffed because I put off downloading the newest update when Hurlanc posted it.

Wycked said:

I'm what you would call a 'good customer'. When I'm into a system I buy it throughout (some components like the core set I bought 2). I don't think FF suffers because of me.

FF is apparently trying to work through this and get us a policy that's good for everyone. I just want to expand the game and fix things I think are broken. Without the ability to do that I'm much less interested in the product. Happy to pay for this though (like I know people who play D&D use their service)...

Wycked said:

What a load of rubbish. Who do you think your kidding?

What right has FFG got to knock on my door and tell me I can't give 'so-and-so' my so made homebrew Hobbit/Elven Mage/Whatever? If I'm not making anything out of it, and I'm filling a much needed gap (which FFG left), what's that to FFG? Afraid we may be able to do better?

Hey that's the internet for you!

Let's keep some courtesy guys

I agree with Rat completely. Why doesn't GW just send a lawyer out to my games and when I use a house rule with the players (technically "distributing" it) they can save the postage on a cease and desist letter? Let me explain something about copyright material in the gaming world. This isn't like a novel or movie we are ripping off, it's a game in which the POINT is to create your own stories and adventures.

You think wotc gives a hoot about a guy that starts up his own forgotten realms website and makes house rules, and special power cards for the game? Um no. Why? Because they have learned that sites like that actually MAKE them money. Not one person here was looking to make money. The fans only wanted their own creative spin on the game like all the other thousands of RPGS that exist. That's not violating copyright, that's increasing your product visibility and increasing its popularity among the gaming customer base. It's done every day, and no other company is short sighted enough to stop it.

In other words the whole point of roleplaying when you get right down to it, is fan created content. That's why people are so upset, it's absurd to think we are only going to use official adventures, and official componets as is, without any sort of changes. Role playing is a sandbox in which they give us room to play, it is NOT a script to be followed for fear of cease and desist.

Rat Catcher said:

The problem is that the home-brewed card text was sitting on top of official game artwork, which was being used without permission. So the stuff at Strange Eons wasn't entirely home-brewed.

Here's a rule of thumb: If you have to scan part of the original game to create a fan-made supplement, you're doing something wrong. It's no longer fan-made; it's fan-modified.

It's okay to do that sort of thing if you're just sharing it with your group. But when you redistribute that artwork online, you're very clearly violating the rights of the copyright holder.

Rat Catcher said:

I'll probably make myself unpopular with both Rat and Sinister, two people for whom I have quite a bit of respect, by saying so, but I think it's a fuzzy area. I can make a photocopy of 200 pages of a book and have a friend use it at my house. Nobody's going to give me a hard time about that, even though it's not technically legal. However, if I post those pages to the internet for download, that's a different story altogether. The extension wasn't just making cards for us to use at home; it was also distributing copyrighted graphics over the internet for free.

They haven't clarified if whether it's creation or distribution that's the problem.

I agree that I think this is a hornet's nest that doesn't need to be stirred up. Fan generated content helps them rather than hurts them, ad I don't think we were going to do anything with those graphics that would have caused them to lose income. Still, I don't think we have any 'right' to go beyond the legal boundaries of using their IP if they don't wish us to do it, no matter how counterintuitive that wish may seem.

You think wotc gives a hoot about a guy that starts up his own forgotten realms website and makes house rules, and special power cards for the game? Um no. Why? Because they have learned that sites like that actually MAKE them money.

Also the D20 system is under the OGL. People can legally do whatever they like with the worlds and campaign systems, just not produce stuff bearing names of prominent characters like Drizzt or Raistlin.

I also GM Star Wars Saga Edition. A not so long time ago, WOTC banned character generators sheets from their forum. They didn't even have their own program (as for D&D4), but Lucasfilm gave them a strict rule about it. Something like that is happening here.

Hum, and of course we DID continue to share and update this sheet elsewhere on the web.

Sinister said:

Maybe GW is revolutionizing the method by which fans participate in RPGs?

I also wish to say

Thank you for listening

Its important

Many thanks

I'm sorry, I saw that and went mad.

I think this is more to do with GW than FFG, so no surprises there then. My wallet will hold fire until it is more clear as to who has done what, and quite frankly, who can do what.

But I'll tell you now, I wouldn't think twice about photocopying a 'card' and superimposing my 'stuff' over it for 'my own group's personal gaming'. In fact it's a very good idea. It's my game, I paid good money for it, and as long as I'm not making a profit, I'll do what I like with it. If anyone wants to come around my house and give me an ear bending, bring a big stick. You'll need it. And where do you draw the line? Example, my friend buys the game - but he has his own group and is short on a couple of cards. You telling me I can't walk over to his house and make copies for him? See how ridiculous it sounds? This kind of thing has gone on since day 1. This kind of thing is only excacerbated by a shortage of much needed products at the game's release.

FFG can go either way here, it will be very intersting to see what they do. GW & WotC can hold hands and take a run and jump right now however.

Strange how the bigger cats want to bleed you dry, yet those smaller cats who have a real love for the game (Swords and Wizardry, Lab. Lord etc) show it in abundance. I have no problems with FFG (or anyone) trying to make money, but trying to take extreme liberties with their customer base is something else.

NO ONE is saying that fan content isn't allowed. What they are likely taking issue with is using COPYRIGHTED content (images, etc.) that is then being re-distributed via the internet.

It isn't lawful to take copyrighted material and reprint it, however modified you feel it is, without their expressed consent. If you take issue with that, you need to take up the issue with Copyright and similar similar laws in your own country. Otherwise, a company has every right to take advantage and enforce any appropriately held copyright law, internet rage notwithstanding.

The OGL covered companies NOT players. It also did NOT allow "anyone to do whatever they wanted with worlds". If that was the case why was wotc the only one making forgotten realms setting material, and for that matter why would White Wolf's Sword and Sorcery need to buy rights to publish Ravenloft. The ogl just simply state you could do your own thing using our rules and publish it. Fans, however, could do whatever they wanted with the world.

I'd also like to point out that fan made websites using TSR art and materials to make fan made content were around long before WotC took over.

As for the Star Wars comment, you are right on there. This is a license issue, not an FFG issue.

I wasn't making offical rules, all my cards were made up traps. I understand someone being upset if you are reprinting published rules. My cards were optional fan made traps, and I was just using the standard art that was on eons, in fact just the same image over and over. I couldn't care about the art, remove it fine but stop getting in the way of my enjoyment of the game.

That's the same crap GW has done with me time and time again. First they remove support for chaos dwarves, then you'd rebuy an rmy like dogs of war, then they discontinued that army, then they enforced low maxium discounts for internet dealers, then they stopped people from selling on the internet altogether, then you had to wait 5 years for an army book like wood elves, then they turned around and published the next edition, just a few months after getting your book for the old edition. Then they refuse to update and sell necromunda, mordhiem, blood bowl, etc. So you have to get the current rules support and find the old game. Then the closed their forums. They are very very good and be a constant pain.

Sinister said:

Dont complain. Its your own fault that you support such kraken companies with your wallet. In truth they prosper because of hysterical fanbois, which buy every sh*tty game material they release.