So, something that a few threads have tap danced around, but that I feel is worth airing out into the open: Can we make a concerted effort to avoid, and to actively stamp out some of the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes regarding players based on the clan they choose to play? In character style banter is fine to a point, but there gets to be a point where it crosses lines and stops being funny.

For a personal example, I was once at a tournament, and my opponent asked to reshuffle my deck. He was within the floor rules to do so as far as I know, but no one had ever done it before, and no one else was doing it at this tournament. I asked him why he was reshuffling in this case, and his response that it was because I was a Scorpion, and therefore more likely to cheat. I was pretty crushed, mostly because I would never dream of cheating in a game, and I felt like I was being unfairly singled out. My choice of deck has absolutely no bearing on my conduct as a player.

There are several others that have cropped up from time to time - that Crab players will be rude or crude, Crane players will be arrogant, or Lion players will be aggressive or hot-tempered. The truth is that just because a player finds fun in pretending to be a certain type of magical samurai, they are no different than you are.

So can we, as a segment of the player base dedicated enough to be refreshing forums for a game that isn't even released, try to make an effort to not project our rivalries and stereotypes from the clans we've chosen onto the opposing players, and to actively prevent those from perpetuating?

Just something that I've been meaning to post for a while. I guess bring on the flames.

Something I wrote a few years ago for the elfiver blog that's pertinent:

http://elfiver.blogspot.com/2010/05/label-me-ill-label-you.html?view=timeslide

13 minutes ago, Hinomura said:

Something I wrote a few years ago for the elfiver blog that's pertinent:

http://elfiver.blogspot.com/2010/05/label-me-ill-label-you.html?view=timeslide

Very much in the same vein. Thanks for posting.

When I clicked the link to the old cheaters blog I saw a few names that I remembered fondly, and wouldn't have thought would have done something like that. (I do remember a few of the high profile ones though).

I agree that anything that could drive people away should be avoided at all cost.

Funny enough, I'm te first to reckon that I can be arrogant (I try my best to avoid i but sometimes I fail ^^'). Which is, I think, what drove me toward the Crane Clan in the first place.

Typical Scorpion clan topic trying to cover up the truth that all Scorpions are sheisty.

When people find out I'm Shadowlands they always ask to see my taint...........

And I'm the freak?

New to the game. Thanks for letting me know the players and the clans to look out for.

I usually don't think about stereotypes, but since people identify with their clans I usually would say it is better to look at the virtue each clan represents and build expectations from there if one really wants to do such a thing.

7 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

I usually don't think about stereotypes, but since people identify with their clans I usually would say it is better to look at the virtue each clan represents and build expectations from there if one really wants to do such a thing.

@Drudenfusz You keep beating me to the keyboard!
What she said is so true, and we as players can always enjoy the roles our clans allow us to play, but at the end of the day, it's much better if we focus on the positives. When I see a Crab, I don't think crude, I think someone who understands Duty. Crane aren't arrogant, they're devoted to beauty and perfection in all that they do. The Dragon are thoughtful. The Lion are brave. The Phoenix are curiosity incarnate, and the Scorpion understand Loyalty like no other. The Unicorn treasure freedom and acceptance of outside ideas. While they're no longer with us, the old Mantis were the living embodiment of "who dares, wins". Even the Spider had their redeeming qualities, mostly based around self-improvement and the importance of the individual over the masses.

So, as the old song goes, "acc-centuate the positive"! See the good in your fellow players and don't judge people by their clan. In the end, we're all players of the same game enjoying the same world.

Honestly, I've never noticed any of the bad stereotypes applying to people's clans. Like they mentioned above virtue is more likely to apply than anything. The person who I know cheated the most was a Dragon player (who didn't play in tourneys).

L5R has some of the nicest people for a gaming community I know of, both locally and in the various Koteis I've been to. I'm not saying it is universal, but I have generally met nicer people at Koteis, who were playing competitively, than the local magic players on casual sealed tourneys.

9 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Honestly, I've never noticed any of the bad stereotypes applying to people's clans. Like they mentioned above virtue is more likely to apply than anything. The person who I know cheated the most was a Dragon player (who didn't play in tourneys).

L5R has some of the nicest people for a gaming community I know of, both locally and in the various Koteis I've been to. I'm not saying it is universal, but I have generally met nicer people at Koteis, who were playing competitively, than the local magic players on casual sealed tourneys.

Yeah, this is generally true, but it extends even to things like assuming that someone who likes Crane is more effeminate or any number of other things too.

While we're on the subject of toxic stereotypes, let's also work on not describing all Crane characters as women.

Sure, I'll try not to be as critical of other people's clans as they have been of mine. Seriously though, it's a noble endeavor, and I'm eager to see how it pans out among the playerbase old and new.

There's another factor to think about, which is that teasing tone of voice doesn't carry in Internet discussions. At one point in a different discussion thread, I was tempted to say "Isn't that just like a Scorpion" to something that someone with a Scorpion mon said. I would have been joking around, and if I had been in person, I probably would have gone ahead and said it, since my tone of voice would have conveyed my joking. But I decided not to say it here, since I wasn't sure that even a smiley-face emoji would properly convey that I intended it as a joke, and did not think that the Scorpion player was being dishonest.

So some things that can be perfectly fine to say in face-to-face conversation because your tone will convey your real meaning... might be best avoided in online forums, for the sake of avoiding misunderstandings and unintentionally hurt feelings.

2 hours ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

@Drudenfusz You keep beating me to the keyboard!
What she said is so true, and we as players can always enjoy the roles our clans allow us to play, but at the end of the day, it's much better if we focus on the positives. When I see a Crab, I don't think crude, I think someone who understands Duty. Crane aren't arrogant, they're devoted to beauty and perfection in all that they do. The Dragon are thoughtful. The Lion are brave. The Phoenix are curiosity incarnate, and the Scorpion understand Loyalty like no other. The Unicorn treasure freedom and acceptance of outside ideas. While they're no longer with us, the old Mantis were the living embodiment of "who dares, wins". Even the Spider had their redeeming qualities, mostly based around self-improvement and the importance of the individual over the masses.

So, as the old song goes, "acc-centuate the positive"! See the good in your fellow players and don't judge people by their clan. In the end, we're all players of the same game enjoying the same world.

I thought the Mantis positive was, "Nyah, nyah! We can attack from much longer range than you can!"

I think there are two types of people acting this way, though. Some people legitimately think that a Scorpion player is going to be less honest than other players. These people need to be corrected and realize the difference between the fictional world and the real people controlling it. But there are also people who know the difference, and say such things to joke or tease. In those cases, I think these people just need to learn that there are some things you can joke about with friends who you play with every week, but which don't translate well to complete strangers in a tournament who have no way of knowing whether you're serious.

saying that I did know a scorpion player who said he would cheat if he could as he was playing ic. I wasn't particularly impressed.

on the op they were entirely within their rights to cut/shuffle your deck. Their reason was less sound though.

just reads marks link and I wonder if it was the same incident.

as an aside I went to the euros in 2005 with my crane harrier movement deck. I was fairly clueless concerning tournaments and remember after losing the first round mentioning to mark (who was umpiring I think) that I might swap out some cards only to be told about the keeping decks the same rule. I was most embarrassed but it was obviously good to know before I unintentionally went over a line and mark is as calm and good natured in person as with his postings. I then carried on losing before spending stupid amounts of money trying to get a crane holding (falling blossoms?) from the fortune cookie prizes. Strange what you remember sometimes.

45 minutes ago, Matrim said:

saying that I did know a scorpion player who said he would cheat if he could as he was playing ic. I wasn't particularly impressed.

on the op they were entirely within their rights to cut/shuffle your deck. Their reason was less sound though.

Yeah, it wasn't that he wasn't within rights, it was that he only chose to do it because of my stronghold that sat poorly.

It's a shame that someone would try to use their flavor of magical samurai as justification to be a dingleberry.

1 hour ago, Matrim said:

saying that I did know a scorpion player who said he would cheat if he could as he was playing ic. I wasn't particularly impressed.

on the op they were entirely within their rights to cut/shuffle your deck. Their reason was less sound though.

Right, and I wouldn't have an issue with someone exercising their right to a shuffle in every game, even if it's not the norm. The problem comes when you're asking specifically for one particular clan to do it, just because they play that clan. The implication being that people who play Scorpion are themselves untrustworthy as players, which is definitely rather insulting.

34 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Right, and I wouldn't have an issue with someone exercising their right to a shuffle in every game, even if it's not the norm. The problem comes when you're asking specifically for one particular clan to do it, just because they play that clan. The implication being that people who play Scorpion are themselves untrustworthy as players, which is definitely rather insulting.

Unless the player is so IC that they take it as a compliment, as most Scorpion in the setting do. I imagine this is rare, however.

This sort of thing is rare, but every subculture has their crazy people.

I have been a Unicorn player for awhile (1995-ish) and I have always bobbed and weaved with the storyline punches. They always seemed to follow one basic pattern. Specifically, "Hey, the Lion and Unicorn are at war again!" During the Race for the Throne, when Chags (and by extension, Purple) was deeply unpopular, I was threatened with physical violence by a Lion player in a parking lot.

I assume his reasoning was that: because I played Pony, I must support Chagatai, and therefore I must be taught a lesson in real life. In reality, I had played Uni long before Chags and would continue playing them long afterwards. While the incident was notably more than just passing bluster, the situation fizzled without conflict. Ever since, I have always rolled my eyes when the story team pitted Lion vs. Uni.

Lo, and behold! The new setting starts with a Lion/Unicorn conflict. *sigh*

The lesson I received is this: This Lion player stereotyped me as a individual and his actions, were I not careful, threatened to place me in a position to start stereotyping Lion players. This stereotyping behavior is contagious and stereotyping itself represents a category error. It's like crazy spreads like virus. Find a way to inoculate yourselves, please.

8 minutes ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

This sort of thing is rare, but every subculture has their crazy people.

I have been a Unicorn player for awhile (1995-ish) and I have always bobbed and weaved with the storyline punches. They always seemed to follow one basic pattern. Specifically, "Hey, the Lion and Unicorn are at war again!" During the Race for the Throne, when Chags (and by extension, Purple) was deeply unpopular, I was threatened with physical violence by a Lion player in a parking lot.

I assume his reasoning was that: because I played Pony, I must support Chagatai, and therefore I must be taught a lesson in real life. In reality, I had played Uni long before Chags and would continue playing them long afterwards. While the incident was notably more than just passing bluster, the situation fizzled without conflict. Ever since, I have always rolled my eyes when the story team pitted Lion vs. Uni.

Lo, and behold! The new setting starts with a Lion/Unicorn conflict. *sigh*

The lesson I received is this: This Lion player stereotyped me as a individual and his actions, were I not careful, threatened to place me in a position to start stereotyping Lion players. This stereotyping behavior is contagious and stereotyping itself represents a category error. It's like crazy spreads like virus. Find a way to inoculate yourselves, please.

I think that's the exact kind of thing I want us to self-police. Feeling like your or your opponent's choices in a card game justify threats of violence is not cool.

6 minutes ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

Lo, and behold! The new setting starts with a Lion/Unicorn conflict. *sigh*

Albeit one which can hopefully be resolved without bloodshed. Though the Lion, or at least Arasou, appears to be very much in the market for enemies as the story opens. For the clan whose priority virtue is Honor, it's a surprisingly low approach for them to seize upon the Crane's current hardship to nurse a vendetta.

9 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I thought the Mantis positive was, "Nyah, nyah! We can attack from much longer range than you can!"

Your Tsuruchi is showing...

11 minutes ago, Builder2 said:

Albeit one which can hopefully be resolved without bloodshed. Though the Lion, or at least Arasou, appears to be very much in the market for enemies as the story opens. For the clan whose priority virtue is Honor, it's a surprisingly low approach for them to seize upon the Crane's current hardship to nurse a vendetta.

This sort of, kind of, relates to stereotypes, I guess, but I'd hope it is not resolved without bloodshed. The stereotype (see, I'm working in the thread topic ) for L5R players is that we want our clans to be peaceful, but the story - and the stereotypical samurai - needs violence to work well. Especially at the tail of AEG's ownership, we saw a lot of conflicts resolved peacefully, usually as a result of player choices, and I think the story suffered for it. I'm hoping FFG is willing to allow a lot more bad blood to develop between the clans.

That said, I'd fully support the OP, in that bad blood between the clans absolutely should not translate into bad blood between the players, who after all, are all here to enjoy the game. (Mind you, the occasional bit of trash talk is fine - that's part of the fun too, just don't take it too far...)