Just now, SabineKey said:

Okay. Show me top level play that disproves that K-wing bombers aren't a really bad match up for Imp Aces.

Like I said, you're the one saying Sabine/SLAM needs a nerf, so the onus to provide proof is your responsibility.

And for the record, I never said it's not good vs. Aces, just that it's not an insta-loss, nor the sole reason Imperials are struggling.

3 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Like I said, you're the one saying Sabine/SLAM needs a nerf, so the onus to provide proof is your responsibility.

And for the record, I never said it's not good vs. Aces, just that it's not an insta-loss, nor the sole reason Imperials are struggling.

No, not sole. But reports I'm getting say it's one of the big reasons.

43 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

No, not sole. But reports I'm getting say it's one of the big reasons.

I'm sure. Just like aces with Autothrusters were one of the big reasons I had to shelve Dash for a while. It happens, metas shift.

Just now, StriderZessei said:

I'm sure. Just like aces with Autothrusters were one of the big reasons I had to shelve Dash for a while. It happens, metas shift.

True. And the people who get shafted by it complain. All have some level of legitimaticy. Why should Ace players be different?

@StriderZessei you are right. I don't have direct tournament results to call upon. Just eyewitness accounts and theorizing. I do believe they hold merit and that tournament results don't discount the conclusion, but I don't have direct data.

4 hours ago, SabineKey said:

True. And the people who get shafted by it complain. All have some level of legitimaticy. Why should Ace players be different?

I've been thinking long and hard about this, because you deserve a fair and reasonable response.

I think I'm being defensive because the conversation has gone from "Bombs are good vs. Aces" to "Let's nerf bombs." Bombs are perhaps the strongest, most viable option in the Rebel arsenal, thanks mainly to Sabine and Adv. SLAM (Which in turn means using only the K-Wing.)

Keep in mind an errata that makes small bases better vs. bombs benefits EVERY faction's small ships: K-Wings, Protectorates, X-Wings, and the like. If such a nerf were to go through, we'd really only see more rebel players switch to Scum, NOT a resurgence of Imperial players.

How about this: a secondary title usable by basic TIEs and Interceptors; something like "Deflective Plating. TIE and TIE Interceptors only. Once per round, when your ship flies over a bomb token, you may re-roll one of the results. 0 Points."

56 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

I've been thinking long and hard about this, because you deserve a fair and reasonable response.

I think I'm being defensive because the conversation has gone from "Bombs are good vs. Aces" to "Let's nerf bombs." Bombs are perhaps the strongest, most viable option in the Rebel arsenal, thanks mainly to Sabine and Adv. SLAM (Which in turn means using only the K-Wing.)

Keep in mind an errata that makes small bases better vs. bombs benefits EVERY faction's small ships: K-Wings, Protectorates, X-Wings, and the like. If such a nerf were to go through, we'd really only see more rebel players switch to Scum, NOT a resurgence of Imperial players.

How about this: a secondary title usable by basic TIEs and Interceptors; something like "Deflective Plating. TIE and TIE Interceptors only. Once per round, when your ship flies over a bomb token, you may re-roll one of the results. 0 Points."

I too was being defensive because of other conversations across the forums where people deny the problems the Imperial faction is currently facing. I let that cloud my judgement, and I apologize.

What I would like to see is Imp Aces have a better fighting chance against K-Wing Bombing lists. Whether that is a change to one of the cards involved with that combo (Advanced Slam or Sabine), a title like you said, or something else entirely, the method does not matter to me. I don't want bombs to disappear. Ideally, both bombers and Aces would exist together. Heck, bombers could still be a worrying match up for Aces. But to the level I have heard them talked about doesn't feel right.

i agree that the broad "small base" change is too much and would just make things better for Scum. The title idea is a good one, though I'm worried the reroll isn't enough. That only helps with Cluster Mines, which could just mean people go back to Connor Nets and not much has actually changed. The idea that has been knocking around in my head (maybe good, maybe not) is allowing a form of defensive die roll against bombs to avoid damage. While the particulars would need testing, the original premise is let Interceptors and regular TIEs use their AGI value against bombs, but not allowing any form of modification. Pure dice roll. Sabine could still trigger even if they avoided the initial damage. Maybe avoid special effects if the damage is avoided. Maybe widen the scope and let a couple other ties take it as well (not the /sf, Defender, and maybe not the Advanced).

Considering my track record in this debate, I would like to clarify that I'm not presenting this as THE way to fix Imp aces. It might be too much, it might be too little. And there are still other anti-Ace tricks out there.

11 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I too was being defensive because of other conversations across the forums where people deny the problems the Imperial faction is currently facing. I let that cloud my judgement, and I apologize.

What I would like to see is Imp Aces have a better fighting chance against K-Wing Bombing lists. Whether that is a change to one of the cards involved with that combo (Advanced Slam or Sabine), a title like you said, or something else entirely, the method does not matter to me. I don't want bombs to disappear. Ideally, both bombers and Aces would exist together. Heck, bombers could still be a worrying match up for Aces. But to the level I have heard them talked about doesn't feel right.

i agree that the broad "small base" change is too much and would just make things better for Scum. The title idea is a good one, though I'm worried the reroll isn't enough. That only helps with Cluster Mines, which could just mean people go back to Connor Nets and not much has actually changed. The idea that has been knocking around in my head (maybe good, maybe not) is allowing a form of defensive die roll against bombs to avoid damage. While the particulars would need testing, the original premise is let Interceptors and regular TIEs use their AGI value against bombs, but not allowing any form of modification. Pure dice roll. Sabine could still trigger even if they avoided the initial damage. Maybe avoid special effects if the damage is avoided. Maybe widen the scope and let a couple other ties take it as well (not the /sf, Defender, and maybe not the Advanced).

Considering my track record in this debate, I would like to clarify that I'm not presenting this as THE way to fix Imp aces. It might be too much, it might be too little. And there are still other anti-Ace tricks out there.

The title would also need to be stacked with other titles, like Royal Guard Interceptor, now that I think about it.

My concern is that 3 AGI dice against a single mine is 3 greens to 2 reds, neither getting modified. Perhaps the title would let the ship just roll two greens?

2 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

The title would also need to be stacked with other titles, like Royal Guard Interceptor, now that I think about it.

Possibly. Yet another aspect of it that would need to be tested.

On 5/9/2017 at 3:09 PM, PhantomFO said:

The current infusion of unblockable bomb damage from K-Wings has been cited as one of the biggest concerns for the Empire's fragile arc-dodgers. There's simply no reason to bring Soontir Fel to a match where Miranda and Sabine can vaporize him without firing a shot. In light of that, should FFG consider either a rules change or an upgrade that would give smaller ships a chance to evade damage from bombs? And if so, how would you go about adding such a thing?

I'm also only focusing on small ships here, as giving bombs a bonus against larger ships seems to be thematic.

One option could be an errata to Autothrusters, allowing you to roll dice for a chance to evade the bomb's effects. That'd largely keep the help where it's needed most while keeping everyone else affected as normal, and would have a shot at failure.

YES! But not through autothrusters. The aces without access to the mod (ex Vader or Talonbane) are already struggling...

In a meta with K-wings and bombs, Fenn Rau seems to be doing just fine. I think the biggest reason you don't see much Soontir Fel right now is that Fenn Rau does almost everything Soontir can do but also hits harder and doesn't roll over to stress. Soontir just isn't as good as Fenn. It's not mines, he just got replaced.

I do think it's silly that a Tie Interceptor is as likely to take damage from cluster mines as a Decimator. A large cloud of area effect mines should probably more dangerous to a low agility ship. Not sure how to fix it now though.

How about making all the mines that roll a certain number of attack dice for their damage roll reduce the attack dice rolled by the agility value of the ship that triggers it?

This would mean you'd need to up the amount of dice these mines rolled.

So for example, you could change Cluster mines to read "the ship that moves through or overlapped that token rolls 4 attack dice and suffers all *(hit damage) rolled. Then discard that token. Reduce the number of attack dice rolled by the ship's current agility value, to a minimum of 0. Only discard the Cluster Mine token if a non-zero number of attack dice were rolled."

So Cluster mines wouldn't be great against fighters, but they would be devastating to lower agility ships. While bombs that automatically exploded would be more effective as they would be guaranteed damage vs fighters. And a ship with an agility value greater or equal to the attack dice of the mine would actually be able to completely ignore the mines(though they wouldn't get rid of them for other ships. No screening your decimator with high agility ships)

The only way I can beat Miranda with my Aces is to have initiative bid, so my 8's go first, have Kylo and Adv Sensors so she has no idea where I'll be, and I get lucky killing Biggs fast, and I get lucky killing the stress bot fast, and lastly I have both my Aces left versus Miranda who hopefully wasted her Action Bombs versus Kylo, and she was dumb enough to shoot him and have the Damage Cockpit crit ready to go on her.

I'm 2-2 versus her and that's with me playing my build about 30 times and other players playing Heaver's list for the first time.

21 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

I'm 2-2 versus her and that's with me playing my build about 30 times and other players playing Heaver's list for the first time.

So you have a horrible match-up and you're 2-2? I take your point about "experience with lists," but ... this seems pretty reasonable to me.

What outcome would you find acceptable? 3-1? 4-0?

14 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

In a meta with K-wings and bombs, Fenn Rau seems to be doing just fine. I think the biggest reason you don't see much Soontir Fel right now is that Fenn Rau does almost everything Soontir can do but also hits harder and doesn't roll over to stress. Soontir just isn't as good as Fenn. It's not mines, he just got replaced.

I do think it's silly that a Tie Interceptor is as likely to take damage from cluster mines as a Decimator. A large cloud of area effect mines should probably more dangerous to a low agility ship. Not sure how to fix it now though.

You hit the nail square on the head. Aces are still around and doing well, just some of them have become more or less obsolete.

Bombs don't need a change. Sabine doesn't need a change. They are perfectly fine the way they are, and while bombing K-Wings may give aces a hard time, they also keep aces in check. The minute bombs and Sabine get watered down then the near-invincible aces will return with a vengeance which isn't a good thing for the game.

49 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

How about making all the mines that roll a certain number of attack dice for their damage roll reduce the attack dice rolled by the agility value of the ship that triggers it?

This would mean you'd need to up the amount of dice these mines rolled.

So for example, you could change Cluster mines to read "the ship that moves through or overlapped that token rolls 4 attack dice and suffers all *(hit damage) rolled. Then discard that token. Reduce the number of attack dice rolled by the ship's current agility value, to a minimum of 0. Only discard the Cluster Mine token if a non-zero number of attack dice were rolled."

So Cluster mines wouldn't be great against fighters, but they would be devastating to lower agility ships. While bombs that automatically exploded would be more effective as they would be guaranteed damage vs fighters. And a ship with an agility value greater or equal to the attack dice of the mine would actually be able to completely ignore the mines(though they wouldn't get rid of them for other ships. No screening your decimator with high agility ships)

Then nobody would use mines anymore again. I mean, this just complicate things unnecessarily because there's nothing wrong with them the way they are right now.

31 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

The only way I can beat Miranda with my Aces is to have initiative bid, so my 8's go first, have Kylo and Adv Sensors so she has no idea where I'll be, and I get lucky killing Biggs fast, and I get lucky killing the stress bot fast, and lastly I have both my Aces left versus Miranda who hopefully wasted her Action Bombs versus Kylo, and she was dumb enough to shoot him and have the Damage Cockpit crit ready to go on her.

I'm 2-2 versus her and that's with me playing my build about 30 times and other players playing Heaver's list for the first time.

The problem here though is that it's not really the mines that are the issue, it's a combination of factors like Biggs, Stresshog, plus a bombing Miranda. It's just a strong list, but it's not dominating. Didn't even win Worlds.

Pretty much every squad has some kind of weakness, particularly against certain matchups. That's just the way it is, but it doesn't mean things need to be errata'd because of it.

Other factions just need access to better bombing ships or upgrades that improve existing ones. That might happen with Wave 11.

32 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

So you have a horrible match-up and you're 2-2? I take your point about "experience with lists," but ... this seems pretty reasonable to me.

What outcome would you find acceptable? 3-1? 4-0?

My point is the only way I got those 2 wins was for the stars to align and for those two players being very inexperienced with the list and bombs and make mistakes like shooting Kylo. Even then I barely won. If I made any mistake at all, I lose an entire ship.

2 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

My point is the only way I got those 2 wins was for the stars to align and for those two players being very inexperienced with the list and bombs and make mistakes like shooting Kylo. Even then I barely won. If I made any mistake at all, I lose an entire ship.

You didn't answer my question. In that extremely unfavorable match-up, you went 2-2. What would have been acceptable to you? 3-1? Or only 4-0?

16 hours ago, SabineKey said:

I too was being defensive because of other conversations across the forums where people deny the problems the Imperial faction is currently facing. I let that cloud my judgement, and I apologize.

What I would like to see is Imp Aces have a better fighting chance against K-Wing Bombing lists. Whether that is a change to one of the cards involved with that combo (Advanced Slam or Sabine), a title like you said, or something else entirely, the method does not matter to me. I don't want bombs to disappear. Ideally, both bombers and Aces would exist together. Heck, bombers could still be a worrying match up for Aces. But to the level I have heard them talked about doesn't feel right.

i agree that the broad "small base" change is too much and would just make things better for Scum. The title idea is a good one, though I'm worried the reroll isn't enough. That only helps with Cluster Mines, which could just mean people go back to Connor Nets and not much has actually changed. The idea that has been knocking around in my head (maybe good, maybe not) is allowing a form of defensive die roll against bombs to avoid damage. While the particulars would need testing, the original premise is let Interceptors and regular TIEs use their AGI value against bombs, but not allowing any form of modification. Pure dice roll. Sabine could still trigger even if they avoided the initial damage. Maybe avoid special effects if the damage is avoided. Maybe widen the scope and let a couple other ties take it as well (not the /sf, Defender, and maybe not the Advanced).

Considering my track record in this debate, I would like to clarify that I'm not presenting this as THE way to fix Imp aces. It might be too much, it might be too little. And there are still other anti-Ace tricks out there.

The mines are already a pure dice roll, at least clusters and proximity are anyway. It's entirely possible that a small ace will hit one and not take anything (or only 1 if Sabine is in play) and being small means there is a much greater chance that you won't even hit all three clusters.

Watering down mines (or Sabine) or doing something like rolling agility against them are all bad ideas. It would just mark the return of an unkillable, turtled-up Soontir dominating the meta.

What you are forgetting too is that it takes skill to use bombs effectively. They aren't just drop --> damage, you have to think ahead and try and figure out what are the best moves for maximum payoff.

Likewise, flying against them also takes skill, because if you can anticipate what your opponent is going to do you can avoid, or at the very least, minimize the damage. As others have already said, Fenn Rau is doing just fine in this meta and bombs make him a bit nervous.

And in regards to Sabine, she's costed appropriately. Now if she wasn't "once per round" THEN I would agree that she's overpowered, but her limit is just fine. Personally, I'd rather face Sabine than say, 3-4 ships with Feedback Array.

20 minutes ago, Darth Landy said:

The problem here though is that it's not really the mines that are the issue, it's a combination of factors like Biggs, Stresshog, plus a bombing Miranda. It's just a strong list, but it's not dominating. Didn't even win Worlds.

Pretty much every squad has some kind of weakness, particularly against certain matchups. That's just the way it is, but it doesn't mean things need to be errata'd because of it.

It doesn't have to win worlds. Triple K Wings didn't win worlds or did they expect to win worlds. The problem is that they push an entire faction out of the meta. It's the same problem as Quad TLT. It is not a super unbeatable list, but certain ships cannot compete at all with it.

Now saying that, out of 7 games at Worlds I faced one set of bombs and one stress hog. Oddly enough the bombs were from a Kenkirk. I don't think bombs are widely used enough to discourage players from playing imperial aces nor do I think stress should. Stress can be countered by Yorr or Inspiring Recruit. I think there is an overreaction by Imperial Players when Palp & X/7's were nerfed and stress & bombs came back. The faction is definitely weaker and is especially weak versus bombs, but they aren't prevalent enough to force one to list build through another faction.

3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

You didn't answer my question. In that extremely unfavorable match-up, you went 2-2. What would have been acceptable to you? 3-1? Or only 4-0?

I'd be satisfied going 2-2 where I felt if skill level, decision making, and dice were equal that the 2-2 wins were deserved.

3 minutes ago, Darth Landy said:

The mines are already a pure dice roll, at least clusters and proximity are anyway. It's entirely possible that a small ace will hit one and not take anything (or only 1 if Sabine is in play) and being small means there is a much greater chance that you won't even hit all three clusters.

Watering down mines (or Sabine) or doing something like rolling agility against them are all bad ideas. It would just mark the return of an unkillable, turtled-up Soontir dominating the meta.

What you are forgetting too is that it takes skill to use bombs effectively. They aren't just drop --> damage, you have to think ahead and try and figure out what are the best moves for maximum payoff.

Likewise, flying against them also takes skill, because if you can anticipate what your opponent is going to do you can avoid, or at the very least, minimize the damage. As others have already said, Fenn Rau is doing just fine in this meta and bombs make him a bit nervous.

And in regards to Sabine, she's costed appropriately. Now if she wasn't "once per round" THEN I would agree that she's overpowered, but her limit is just fine. Personally, I'd rather face Sabine than say, 3-4 ships with Feedback Array.

I have given my explanation before and defended it against the exact same arguments you are using. It is not worth my time to rehash it yet again to have it fall on deaf ears.

All your arguments still don't change the state of the game, nor the opinions and conclusions of Imperial Ace flyers who have dealt with this situation.

1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

It doesn't have to win worlds. Triple K Wings didn't win worlds or did they expect to win worlds. The problem is that they push an entire faction out of the meta. It's the same problem as Quad TLT. It is not a super unbeatable list, but certain ships cannot compete at all with it.

Now saying that, out of 7 games at Worlds I faced one set of bombs and one stress hog. Oddly enough the bombs were from a Kenkirk. I don't think bombs are widely used enough to discourage players from playing imperial aces nor do I think stress should. Stress can be countered by Yorr or Inspiring Recruit. I think there is an overreaction by Imperial Players when Palp & X/7's were nerfed and stress & bombs came back. The faction is definitely weaker and is especially weak versus bombs, but they aren't prevalent enough to force one to list build through another faction.

I disagree. Certain ships can't deal with certain things, that's just the way it is. Next, people will be crying about Snapshot and Feedback Array. Seems to me aces really don't like these either, but guess what? They exist and likely wouldn't win Worlds either.