38 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

"Bombs" in the current meta are almost entirely the province of K-Wings, which are part of the Biggs faction. As such, I don't believe Unguided Rockets are going to help. Bombers with ordnance and Long-Range Scanners would probably serve as a better deterrent, as they could ignore Biggs with target-locked torpedoes/missiles.

A trio of Scimitars with Unguided Rockets and Lightweight Frame is 60 points. 40 is plenty for many aces plus a healthy bid. Those ships can put a lot of damage into anything, block bombing lanes, detonate bombs before the ace, and they're hard to kill for the points.

23 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I read maybe one-quarter of the threads on the front page.

On a good day.

Remember when everyone just complained about the T-65 fix threads...yeah it's a cycle. I can't blame people for wanting things that push their favorite ships out of the meta, but things are sometimes intentionally introduced to change the meta. This keeps the game relatively fresh. In an ideal world every thing would be competitive, but it is not. I do wonder how much of the meta is people not wanting to fly something because these forums agree that some ship isn't worth the points or only certain lists are viable.

People also like to look at the top players and emulate their lists, but not everyone at a tournament is a top player, on these forums or out to win at all costs. Every tournament I go to, there are plenty of fun lists, and there are always those surprises that make cuts.

So about the T-65... Extra attack die or hull?

13 hours ago, Darth Landy said:

Sorry, not even close. Palp made certain ships near invincible. Sabine doesn't. She's way more balanced, so much so that FFG even errata'd Cluster Mines to now include crits because those bombs just weren't worth the points.

The bottom line is Sabine is not dominating and therefore does not need a nerf. I just came back from Worlds and in the seven matches that I played there was only one Sabine, on my Ghost. I went 4-3. Also the only other bomb I saw in those seven matches was a Cluster Mine on a Y-Wing. Didn't see all that many K-wings on the other tables, either, but did see a ton of jumpmasters and Fangs.

So the problem isn't bombs or Sabine. The real problem is somebody loses their game, then immediately comes here to press the nerf button. It's getting ridiculous already how every second post here over the past few months is nerf this or nerf that. Newsflash: these are forums, not nerfums.

Palp wasn't dominating either. For all this talk of Palp making ships "near invincible", he never took a Worlds. Both other factions had tools to deal with him, and if you care to notice, things were better balanced in last worlds (as far as faction representation went) last year when Palp was his old way.

The combo of Sabine, Advanced Slam, and Cluster Mines are having the same effect on aces as U-Boats had on low AGI Rebel ships not too long ago. People cried out that that was unfair. Why should those who love aces stay silent now?

13 hours ago, Scopes said:

Is there a world of difference between Sabine and Ruthlessness? Both make you not fly in formations that may be optimal for your squadron. 2 Glaives with ruthlesness and X7 are nothing to be trifled with, IMHO.

RAC?

Yes. The differences between Ruthlessness and Sabine is that Ruthlessness has to get through green dice, can damage your own ships if you get too close, and is limited to harming another vessel. Sabine with bombs bypasses green dice, doesn't have to damage one of your own (though there is that one trick), and can hit what ever ship you want at range one of the bomb, including the initial target.

RAC is a fair point, and has taken Imps the farthest resently, but is still falling short.

5 hours ago, Stevey86 said:

Then don't read them. Go play Pokemon or something.

Have you seen the Pokemon World Championships? Competitive X-Wing pales in comparison.

2 hours ago, Mrk1984 said:

So about the T-65... Extra attack die or hull?

Eh, more in favor of something in the reposition camp. Maybe add text to integrated Astromech saying you can equip a second mod under a certain price?

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

The problem is with Advanced Slam, a K-Wing can turn a pretty large area into "behind it" and drop bombs that cover a large area.

But just because one ship can do it well should we kill bombs again from others?

7 minutes ago, Zazaa said:

But just because one ship can do it well should we kill bombs again from others?

No. ideally, stuff like bombs and low health ships could exist in the meta at the same time, but actually getting that work seems to be more difficult done than said. Until then, Advanced Slam makes the advice of "don't get behind them" as useful as "don't let them arc dodge you".

6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

No. ideally, stuff like bombs and low health ships could exist in the meta at the same time, but actually getting that work seems to be more difficult done than said. Until then, Advanced Slam makes the advice of "don't get behind them" as useful as "don't let them arc dodge you".

Yes, it is kinda sad thing that it is so complicated at the moment. But I still remember the time when bombs were useless more or less. So it would be shame to lose them just because one ship is good. I'm happier now that they work.

1 minute ago, Zazaa said:

Yes, it is kinda sad thing that it is so complicated at the moment. But I still remember the time when bombs were useless more or less. So it would be shame to lose them just because one ship is good. I'm happier now that they work.

But at a cost.

Everyone is complaining about bombs, but whenever my opponent flies through a line of clusters, he rolls one hit, two focuses, and three blanks...

11 hours ago, librarian101 said:

If worried about Sabine, have it be a roll rather than automatic.

Why not just faq Sabine to apply her damage to bombs that detonate at the end of the activation phase (thermal det's et al). I know everyone's going to say that doesn't stop cluster mines/prox mines/conner nets from being dropped infront of an Ace. But it does make them slightly less effective whilst still retaining actual value for Sabine in normal play.

Wording change would look something like... "once per round, before a friendly bomb detonates at the end of the activation phase, choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1 of that token. That ship suffers 1 damage."

11 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Palp wasn't dominating either. For all this talk of Palp making ships "near invincible", he never took a Worlds. Both other factions had tools to deal with him, and if you care to notice, things were better balanced in last worlds (as far as faction representation went) last year when Palp was his old way.

The combo of Sabine, Advanced Slam, and Cluster Mines are having the same effect on aces as U-Boats had on low AGI Rebel ships not too long ago. People cried out that that was unfair. Why should those who love aces stay silent now?

Yes. The differences between Ruthlessness and Sabine is that Ruthlessness has to get through green dice, can damage your own ships if you get too close, and is limited to harming another vessel. Sabine with bombs bypasses green dice, doesn't have to damage one of your own (though there is that one trick), and can hit what ever ship you want at range one of the bomb, including the initial target.

RAC is a fair point, and has taken Imps the farthest resently, but is still falling short.

Right on about Ruthlessness, but I should have clarified: With the prevalence of 1/2 AGI ships currently in the meta I do think there is a strong case for Ruthlessness in Imperial squadrons. Granted, you wouldn't fly Soontir like that without some crazy scheme in mind, but Ruthlessness does make a Biggs pilot have to be a lot more careful about how he chooses to fly his list.

I have to be honest, though, and say that I don't think Sabine's ability is a problem; I agree that it's not ideal to have to take splash damage, but the card captures the essence of who Sabine is in the lore...a demolitions expert.

Then again, I think that a "all-comers list building" approach is the way to go...but I've only been to one regional and the stuff everyone wants nerfed wasn't the problem. It was playing against really good pilots that was the issue. That's not a complaint; just an observation. Some folks take the game a lot more seriously than I do, and I discovered that at Regionals.

Still had fun, but yeesh. Waaaay over my head.

3 minutes ago, Scopes said:

Right on about Ruthlessness, but I should have clarified: With the prevalence of 1/2 AGI ships currently in the meta I do think there is a strong case for Ruthlessness in Imperial squadrons. Granted, you wouldn't fly Soontir like that without some crazy scheme in mind, but Ruthlessness does make a Biggs pilot have to be a lot more careful about how he chooses to fly his list.

I have to be honest, though, and say that I don't think Sabine's ability is a problem; I agree that it's not ideal to have to take splash damage, but the card captures the essence of who Sabine is in the lore...a demolitions expert.

Then again, I think that a "all-comers list building" approach is the way to go...but I've only been to one regional and the stuff everyone wants nerfed wasn't the problem. It was playing against really good pilots that was the issue. That's not a complaint; just an observation. Some folks take the game a lot more seriously than I do, and I discovered that at Regionals.

Still had fun, but yeesh. Waaaay over my head.

The Ruthlessness point is fair. I meant to comment my agreement on you saying Ruthlessness Glaives were not to be trifled with, but forgot.

I don't think Sabine is the only problem. She is part of it, but the problem has several cards making it up. I believe to bring back an archetype, one of these cards has to be reworked. Maybe that's Sabine, maybe it isn't.

26 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

The Ruthlessness point is fair. I meant to comment my agreement on you saying Ruthlessness Glaives were not to be trifled with, but forgot.

I don't think Sabine is the only problem. She is part of it, but the problem has several cards making it up. I believe to bring back an archetype, one of these cards has to be reworked. Maybe that's Sabine, maybe it isn't.

It's definitely an interesting puzzle to solve.

Personally, I think the Scum faction gets the best stuff, so from that perspective I don't see the issue with TLTs, Sabine, and the like. /rant

Thanks, though, for having an honest discussion that didn't degenerate into something stupid. It's posts and arguments/discussions (even when I disagree) like ours here that keep me coming back to the forum for ideas. I don't really know what to say when confronted with nerf posts, because I like the game as it is. Does it help me a lot that Manaroo got changed? Absolutely! But I was able to defeat Dengaroo from time to time before all of the changes, and while it was really, really tough to do, I feel like I was a much better pilot because of it. I learned so much from those games (wins and losses). Same for Palpatine lists. I learned the hard way, for example, to stay clear of Wampa's front arc, because I'm going to fly the lists I like to fly, competative or not. That's why I currently have Luke in my list with a HM/Bomber Miranda. There's just something about a 5 die HM that feels so right...unless I'm on the receiving end, of course!

I picked Miranda (Well, Kwings, really...they are a sublime bomber and TIE Bombers should be upset with FFG) because I was tired of rerolling blanks into blanks when I was TL/Focus attacking. I was frustrated that almost every EPT selection I took involved deciding between the alt art PTL and the stock PTL card as I needed both focus and TL to generate hits. Auto Damage gives me chances in games when my dice just REFUSED to play in.

I am a big fan of Expertise as well, for similar reasons.

1 minute ago, Scopes said:

It's definitely an interesting puzzle to solve.

Personally, I think the Scum faction gets the best stuff, so from that perspective I don't see the issue with TLTs, Sabine, and the like. /rant

Thanks, though, for having an honest discussion that didn't degenerate into something stupid. It's posts and arguments/discussions (even when I disagree) like ours here that keep me coming back to the forum for ideas. I don't really know what to say when confronted with nerf posts, because I like the game as it is. Does it help me a lot that Manaroo got changed? Absolutely! But I was able to defeat Dengaroo from time to time before all of the changes, and while it was really, really tough to do, I feel like I was a much better pilot because of it. I learned so much from those games (wins and losses). Same for Palpatine lists. I learned the hard way, for example, to stay clear of Wampa's front arc, because I'm going to fly the lists I like to fly, competative or not. That's why I currently have Luke in my list with a HM/Bomber Miranda. There's just something about a 5 die HM that feels so right...unless I'm on the receiving end, of course!

I picked Miranda (Well, Kwings, really...they are a sublime bomber and TIE Bombers should be upset with FFG) because I was tired of rerolling blanks into blanks when I was TL/Focus attacking. I was frustrated that almost every EPT selection I took involved deciding between the alt art PTL and the stock PTL card as I needed both focus and TL to generate hits. Auto Damage gives me chances in games when my dice just REFUSED to play in.

I am a big fan of Expertise as well, for similar reasons.

Thank you as well.

I do understand the frustration of poorly preforming dice.

Ever tried Expertise on Rey? Oh man, that's a monster right there.

@SabineKey

Yes...It's so dirty I have to wash my hands after the game. However, I am really fond of bucking the trend at my FLGS, and I see 2 - 3 Reys at every event I attend, so I don't bring her. Probably should, though!

20 hours ago, Mef82 said:

They're used to easy-mode game of repositioning with full knowledge of the board.

The exact same argument applies to Advanced SLAM K Wing bombers, except they have the added advantage of not needing to point their guns at the enemy or shoot at all in order to kill things.

2 minutes ago, Scopes said:

@SabineKey

Yes...It's so dirty I have to wash my hands after the game. However, I am really fond of bucking the trend at my FLGS, and I see 2 - 3 Reys at every event I atted, so I don't bring her. Probably should, though!

Fair. I haven't played her much recently, but I want to get back to an evil little combo of Rey and Jan I heard about.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

The exact same argument applies to Advanced SLAM K Wing bombers, except they have the added advantage of not needing to point their guns at the enemy or shoot at all in order to kill things.

I don't know whether this comment should be regarded with scorn or pity. SLAM bombing (with Miranda in this case) only works on aces PS8 (with initiative) or higher, and it still takes a weathered eye to recognize if and when you can do it.

If someone decides they want to ram their nose right into a bomber's tail knowing full well it's got a pack of thermals, that's their error.

Arc dodging also takes an expert eye, with the added necessity of choosing the right move to avoid blockers and still get shots. ASLAM bombing at lower ps than your opponent is the definition of operating with perfect information.

As far as I can tell, all of the anti-AdvSlam, anti-Bomb talk boils down to: "Your 30+ point K-wing should have no meaningful way to damage my 30+ point high-AGI ace, and it's just not fair that it does. My ace, of course, is allowed to shoot your low-AGI K-wing until you're dead."

As I said, I'm not opposed to a small change to Mines (not Bombs) in which a 3-AGI ship (printed and current) may cancel one Mine damage. My lack of objection to that is because (1) I think game design has gone too far in anti-ace tech, (2) I don't believe Sabine, Mines, and K-wings are as overwhelming a percentage of that as people think, and (3) Mines will remain effective enough, as a whole, to be worth taking.

But whining because one 30+ point ship can beat another 30+ point ship if the first 30+ point ship has favorable circumstances is just ludicrous.

9 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

As far as I can tell, all of the anti-AdvSlam, anti-Bomb talk boils down to: "Your 30+ point K-wing should have no meaningful way to damage my 30+ point high-AGI ace, and it's just not fair that it does. My ace, of course, is allowed to shoot your low-AGI K-wing until you're dead."

As I said, I'm not opposed to a small change to Mines (not Bombs) in which a 3-AGI ship (printed and current) may cancel one Mine damage. My lack of objection to that is because (1) I think game design has gone too far in anti-ace tech, (2) I don't believe Sabine, Mines, and K-wings are as overwhelming a percentage of that as people think, and (3) Mines will remain effective enough, as a whole, to be worth taking.

But whining because one 30+ point ship can beat another 30+ point ship if the first 30+ point ship has favorable circumstances is just ludicrous.

Well said. Also worth keeping in mind, in something like a Dash Miranda build, a player still might prefer to load out Miranda with Connors and Ion bombs, because said player values the consistent damage and control value vs. the variable damage output of clusters (and we rarely ever see proximity mines.)

12 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

As far as I can tell, all of the anti-AdvSlam, anti-Bomb talk boils down to: "Your 30+ point K-wing should have no meaningful way to damage my 30+ point high-AGI ace, and it's just not fair that it does. My ace, of course, is allowed to shoot your low-AGI K-wing until you're dead."

As I said, I'm not opposed to a small change to Mines (not Bombs) in which a 3-AGI ship (printed and current) may cancel one Mine damage. My lack of objection to that is because (1) I think game design has gone too far in anti-ace tech, (2) I don't believe Sabine, Mines, and K-wings are as overwhelming a percentage of that as people think, and (3) Mines will remain effective enough, as a whole, to be worth taking.

But whining because one 30+ point ship can beat another 30+ point ship if the first 30+ point ship has favorable circumstances is just ludicrous.

TLTs and homing missiles are perfectly good ways to kill aces.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

TLTs and homing missiles are perfectly good ways to kill aces.

Sure. Let's pretend Autothusters and arc-dodging don't exist.

I'll say it again, because this is the perfect illustration: As far as I can tell, all of the anti-AdvSlam, anti-Bomb talk boils down to: "Your 30+ point K-wing should have no meaningful way to damage my 30+ point high-AGI ace, and it's just not fair that it does. My ace, of course, is allowed to shoot your low-AGI K-wing until you're dead."