The current infusion of unblockable bomb damage from K-Wings has been cited as one of the biggest concerns for the Empire's fragile arc-dodgers. There's simply no reason to bring Soontir Fel to a match where Miranda and Sabine can vaporize him without firing a shot. In light of that, should FFG consider either a rules change or an upgrade that would give smaller ships a chance to evade damage from bombs? And if so, how would you go about adding such a thing?

I'm also only focusing on small ships here, as giving bombs a bonus against larger ships seems to be thematic.

One option could be an errata to Autothrusters, allowing you to roll dice for a chance to evade the bomb's effects. That'd largely keep the help where it's needed most while keeping everyone else affected as normal, and would have a shot at failure.

They already do.

Best bonus possible, they only get quarter of the trigger area.

The problem arc-dodgers have with bombs is their players. They're used to easy-mode game of repositioning with full knowledge of the board. When facing action bombs, you have to guess what would be the best approach angle for your enemy on the following round. Then use boost/roll to position yourself in such a way that there's something behind you, so that the bomber can't perform it's run. Either hug a roid, or fly in offset pairs. It's that simple, and yet out of grasp for many.

If there is a "fix" for bombers, it will probably come in the form of a nerf to advanced slam or Sabine(those seem to be the problem more than bombs alone) I don't know how to do it so it doesn't make bombs irrelevant. As some have suggested, changing Advanced Slam to only actions on the action bar would probably do it, that will make it easier to avoid being in the death zone on a slammed bomb.

And really, bombs are only keeping a few imperial aces away.

nah

37 minutes ago, Mef82 said:

They already do.

Best bonus possible, they only get quarter of the trigger area.

The problem arc-dodgers have with bombs is their players. They're used to easy-mode game of repositioning with full knowledge of the board. When facing action bombs, you have to guess what would be the best approach angle for your enemy on the following round. Then use boost/roll to position yourself in such a way that there's something behind you, so that the bomber can't perform it's run. Either hug a roid, or fly in offset pairs. It's that simple, and yet out of grasp for many.

Thank you.

39 minutes ago, Mef82 said:

They already do.

Best bonus possible, they only get quarter of the trigger area.

The problem arc-dodgers have with bombs is their players. They're used to easy-mode game of repositioning with full knowledge of the board. When facing action bombs, you have to guess what would be the best approach angle for your enemy on the following round. Then use boost/roll to position yourself in such a way that there's something behind you, so that the bomber can't perform it's run. Either hug a roid, or fly in offset pairs. It's that simple, and yet out of grasp for many.

But that means they should still be in use today by high level players who do have the skill you are speaking of, but they aren't. Arguments like this ring very hollow in light of current data.

Make Sabine more expensive or Large ship only. And make Advanced Slam only be actions on the action bar.

How about no nerfs at all? Why do you want a nerf for everything that counters your thing?

Play differently, focus on the bombing vessel, play some control of your own. The 'meta' isnt the same everywhere. In my area, large Scum ships of course dominate but you still see plenty of small aces and very few ever bother with bombs.

Basically, git gud.

Git gud is never a good argument. It assumes the person you are talking to is stupid, and that the game is perfect.

39 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But that means they should still be in use today by high level players who do have the skill you are speaking of, but they aren't. Arguments like this ring very hollow in light of current data.

They're not in use not because of the bombs alone. Interceptors are very susceptible to stress, of which there seems to be a renaissance. Scum, the leading force of the meta today, has ways of dealing with their defensive mods as well, while usually sporting better health total. And classic Imperial Aces are somewhat lacking in offence for today's power levels.

Shadowcaster, one of the most prominent ships as of late, has all the key elements to murder Soontir and his ilk: mobile arc (hard to dodge, no Autothrusters' bonus!), stress! , and can turtle it's 10 health behind Focus and Evade.

And that's only like what, 5 points more than Soonts?

Then there's Fenn, who effectively fires infinite Prockets, and is on the cheaper side, too.

Those two are very much "current data". Haven't seen any Wardens in the Worlds' top spots, though...

flyyyyyyyyyy better!

The answer is no. But maybe Sabins bonus should only apply to large ships. Or only deal shield damage.

1 hour ago, PhantomFO said:

The current infusion of unblockable bomb damage from K-Wings has been cited as one of the biggest concerns for the Empire's fragile arc-dodgers. There's simply no reason to bring Soontir Fel to a match where Miranda and Sabine can vaporize him without firing a shot. In light of that, should FFG consider either a rules change or an upgrade that would give smaller ships a chance to evade damage from bombs? And if so, how would you go about adding such a thing?

I'm also only focusing on small ships here, as giving bombs a bonus against larger ships seems to be thematic.

One option could be an errata to Autothrusters, allowing you to roll dice for a chance to evade the bomb's effects. That'd largely keep the help where it's needed most while keeping everyone else affected as normal, and would have a shot at failure.

While I do agree the effectiveness of bombs against glasscannons is too high, I'm very heavily opposed to the idea of buffing Autothrusters even further. They are already underpriced (it was a conscious decision by the devs as an indirect nerf to turrets). Buffing them even further would make ships that can't take them even more unplayable.

1 hour ago, Mef82 said:

They already do.

Best bonus possible, they only get quarter of the trigger area.

The problem arc-dodgers have with bombs is their players. They're used to easy-mode game of repositioning with full knowledge of the board. When facing action bombs, you have to guess what would be the best approach angle for your enemy and use boost/roll to position yourself in such a way that there's something behind you, so that the bomber can't perform it's run. Either hug a roid, or fly in offset pairs. It's that simple, and yet out of grasp for many.

There are several factors you are not taking into account.

-Arc-dodgers have a naturally low damage output- it is only natural, since they sink most of their points in the ability to nullify damage. However, that also means they tend to simply be unable to actually Kill K-Wings- 9 HP is quite a bit for a ship that will annihilate you if you fly anywhere within range one of it, especially when backed up by things like regen, Rey or C-3P0.

-This is even more of an issue if you consider the fact that if you go out of your way to dodge the bombs, it will usually come at the cost of not having a shot.

-The K-Wing player has some room for error. Even the slightest mistake by the imperial player usually results in losing one of their ships.

-5-dice homing missiles are a thing. Don't forget you can't spend evades on them. I've seen at least three inquisitors just blow up from one of those backed up by a TLT shot or two (and one getting blown up instantly).

-The K-Wings don't need to kill all of your ships to win. "Kill one ship then wait it out" is a pretty valid tactic for them, which is one of the main reasons many players want half points for small ships as well.

As a matter of fact, I've seen one of the best Arcdodger players I know genuinly attempt playing for the final salvo from the start in the finals of a local tournament. He managed to keep both arcdodgers alive, but the opponent realised what was going on in time to grab half points for the Lambda.

If worried about Sabine, have it be a roll rather than automatic.

9 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Git gud is never a good argument.

That's not true, sometimes the issue really just is that the person complaining is doing something wrong. I'm not saying that's true in this case, but sometimes the correct answer is simply learn to play.

It also doesn't assume the person is stupid, just that they may not be doing something right, it also does not in anyway assume the game is perfect.

If someone came here complaining that 5 naked HWK's weren't competitive, the problem is clearly not with the game itself.

1 hour ago, Mef82 said:

The problem arc-dodgers have with bombs is their players.

Not in a world where you can avoid the bomb, and then your opponent can deliberately tigger it and dump auto-damage onto you.

Sabine is in dire need of a rewording to make sure the the ship that triggers the bomb takes the damage.

22 minutes ago, Mef82 said:

They're not in use not because of the bombs alone. Interceptors are very susceptible to stress, of which there seems to be a renaissance. Scum, the leading force of the meta today, has ways of dealing with their defensive mods as well, while usually sporting better health total. And classic Imperial Aces are somewhat lacking in offence for today's power levels.

Shadowcaster, one of the most prominent ships as of late, has all the key elements to murder Soontir and his ilk: mobile arc (hard to dodge, no Autothrusters' bonus!), stress! , and can turtle it's 10 health behind Focus and Evade.

And that's only like what, 5 points more than Soonts?

Then there's Fenn, who effectively fires infinite Prockets, and is on the cheaper side, too.

Those two are very much "current data". Haven't seen any Wardens in the Worlds' top spots, though...

No, bombs aren't the only thing Aces have to worry about, but they are the biggest problem. Mobile ARCs can still be dodged more easily than bombs, Aces still get green dice against attacks, and Aces have survived stress meta before. Fenn is a little more difficult, but he can still be out PSed and dodged, old Aces still have green dice defense against him, and is almost as fragile as an interceptor (more so if at range 2).

Would like to see your math on the "5 more points than Soonter" point. Also, when you make things even by putting PTL on Fenn, he is actually just a point under the standard Fel I am aware of.

No, Wardens weren't in top spots in Worlds, but do you know what bomb dropping pilot of a ship that starts with "K and ends in "-wing" was in the top spots at Worlds?

14 minutes ago, Mef82 said:

They're not in use not because of the bombs alone. Interceptors are very susceptible to stress, of which there seems to be a renaissance. Scum, the leading force of the meta today, has ways of dealing with their defensive mods as well, while usually sporting better health total. And classic Imperial Aces are somewhat lacking in offence for today's power levels.

Shadowcaster, one of the most prominent ships as of late, has all the key elements to murder Soontir and his ilk: mobile arc (hard to dodge, no Autothrusters' bonus!), stress! , and can turtle it's 10 health behind Focus and Evade.

And that's only like what, 5 points more than Soonts?

Then there's Fenn, who effectively fires infinite Prockets, and is on the cheaper side, too.

.Those two are very much "current data". Haven't seen any Wardens in the Worlds' top spots, though...

Pretty much this. Bombs are not the only thing keeping aces away.

Year 2016 was just brutal for PTL aces: Sabine, BMST, Asajj, Braylen combo, Nien combo, Thermal bombs, Dengar double tap, Zuckuss crew, 4-lom crew, bumpmasters. And now to start the year off we have Palp nerf, and EMP device (ugh, flew soontir against Ahsoka with this and was not pleasant). Worse, is most of these are found in the top lists. So you dont just have to survive one game out of 6 or 7 rounds. You probably have to survive 5 or 6 games with multiple counters.

I think aces need a mod or title or some way to kill stress. Like "When attacking, you may remove 1 stress to roll 1 less attack die." This can at least let their entire dial be open, to prevent double stress killing them, and harder time for bumpmasters when they can 5 straight next round instead of being stuck on 2 greens. Relieve some of the threats for them.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Would like to see your math on the "5 more points than Soonter" point. Also, when you make things by putting PTL on Fenn, he is actually just a point under the standard Fel I am aware of.

No, Wardens weren't in top spots in Worlds, but do you know what bomb dropping pilot of a ship that starts with "K and ends in "-wing" was in the top spots at Worlds?

Soontir 27 + PTL 3 + title 0 + SD 3 + AT 2 = 35

Asaj 37 + Attani 1 + Latts 2 = 40, that's 5 point more than Soonts.

Fenn 28 + Attani 1 + title 1 + AT =32, that's 3 points below, not 1.

Noted on Miranda, however the one that ended up on top didn't even have Sabine, so...

I wouldn't have much of a problem with being able to spend evade tokens against Mine damage (not Bomb damage). Not really much help, since most of the time the ship hasn't activated yet.

Hmmm. Maybe if a ship has "Evade" on its action bar, it takes 1 fewer damage from Mines (not Bombs)? Easy enough change on the reference card.

And/or another possibility: If a ship has printed and current AGI of 3+, maybe it takes 1 fewer damage from Mines (not Bombs)?

6 minutes ago, Mef82 said:

Soontir 27 + PTL 3 + title 0 + SD 3 + AT 2 = 35

Asaj 37 + Attani 1 + Latts 2 = 40, that's 5 point more than Soonts.

Fenn 28 + Attani 1 + title 1 + AT =32, that's 3 points below, not 1.

Noted on Miranda, however the one that ended up on top didn't even have Sabine, so...

That Ventress requires another Mindlinked ship to get the two tokens thus has added opportunity cost, and Fel can have three actions.

You missed that I said I was making things even by putting PTL on Fenn. Redo the math.

I haven't mentioned Sabine. She is an aspect of the Bombs dominance, but only one. Still a Bomber k-wing.

No

Just now, SabineKey said:

That Ventress requires another Mindlinked ship to get the two tokens, and Fel can have three actions.

You missed that I said I was making things even by putting PTL on Fenn. Redo the math.

I haven't mentioned Sabine. She is an aspect of the Bombs dominance, but only one. Still a Bomber k-wing.

Fel can have 3 actions, but he's not getting any if he's stressed to begin with, unlike Mindlinked ships. Speaking of which, you can't treat Asaj or Fenn separately, when they're a part of a Mindlinked list... That is not super relevant, though.

My point about lacking Sabine is that if she's not the key element, then why didn't we get the very same topic so much earlier ?

Do you think the recent Cluster Mines' upgrade can be blamed?

Id prefer giving TIE/ints +1 hull and call it a day.

5 minutes ago, Mef82 said:

Fel can have 3 actions, but he's not getting any if he's stressed to begin with, unlike Mindlinked ships. Speaking of which, you can't treat Asaj or Fenn separately, when they're a part of a Mindlinked list... That is not super relevant, though.

My point about lacking Sabine is that if she's not the key element, then why didn't we get the very same topic so much earlier ?

Do you think the recent Cluster Mines' upgrade can be blamed?

No, but a stressed Mindlinked ship is still only getting one token instead of the two tokens you spoke of before. I am comparing ship to ship in a vacuum, like you did not long ago.

Sabine is one of three elements that makes bombs a problem for aces. The other two is the upgraded Cluster mines and Advanced Slam. While the Miranda in question lacked two of these upgrades, the third (the mines) still managed to work out well by the look of it.

Why Sabine K-Wings weren't a problem before is because they weren't discovered yet, or in danger from other things (like U-Boats).

Plus, you have the danger of the Paul Heaver list that does have a Miranda with all three of those that won two system opens. Expecting them at worlds, whether any actually showed up or not, is more than enough to dissuade a potential use of Imp Aces.