8 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

I'd be satisfied going 2-2 where I felt if skill level, decision making, and dice were equal that the 2-2 wins were deserved.

So the fact that it was a very unfavorable match-up shouldn't matter?

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I have given my explanation before and defended it against the exact same arguments you are using. It is not worth my time to rehash it yet again to have it fall on deaf ears.

All your arguments still don't change the state of the game, nor the opinions and conclusions of Imperial Ace flyers who have dealt with this situation.

All of your arguments failed to provide any proof that there even is a problem. You've been saying things like "from what I hear..." and the like, and that's it. Well, there's going to be chatter when something comes along that hurts certain lists. Same thing has happened with TLTs, Kylo Ren, and many other things. But as someone who plays this game a lot and sees a lot of games being played I can tell you that there really isn't a situation.

1 minute ago, Darth Landy said:

I disagree. Certain ships can't deal with certain things, that's just the way it is. Next, people will be crying about Snapshot and Feedback Array. Seems to me aces really don't like these either, but guess what? They exist and likely wouldn't win Worlds either.

Have you seen the area that K-Wings can bomb. It is literally anything inside its arc at Range 1-3 and a little outside its arc with a 2 hard 2 hard slam, not to mention you can't sneak up behind the ship since it has "on reveal" bombs too. One can play around snap shot and feedback array. Feedback Array even has a negative effect and a max of one damage. Snapshot costs a valuable EPT slot, low chance of doing damage, and easier to predict. There's always going to be things that are counters and I agree with you on that.

Just now, Darth Landy said:

All of your arguments failed to provide any proof that there even is a problem. You've been saying things like "from what I hear..." and the like, and that's it. Well, there's going to be chatter when something comes along that hurts certain lists. Same thing has happened with TLTs, Kylo Ren, and many other things. But as someone who plays this game a lot and sees a lot of games being played I can tell you that there really isn't a situation.

If you want to discount the opinion and experience of others, that is your choice. I still trust my friends' judgement and experience over yours.

4 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Have you seen the area that K-Wings can bomb. It is literally anything inside its arc at Range 1-3 and a little outside its arc with a 2 hard 2 hard slam, not to mention you can't sneak up behind the ship since it has "on reveal" bombs too. One can play around snap shot and feedback array. Feedback Array even has a negative effect and a max of one damage. Snapshot costs a valuable EPT slot, low chance of doing damage, and easier to predict. There's always going to be things that are counters and I agree with you on that.

You do realize K-wings and Advanced Slam are Wave 7 and not 10, right? They weren't a problem when they were first released, and not much has changed since then. Sure, we got Sabine, but again, once per turn.

I also strongly disagree with you on Snapshot and Feedback Array. Playing around them, like you say, is much easier said than done. Feedback Array is max one damage PER TURN. Sure it has a negative affect, but in multiples it can be far more devastating than Sabine. Same with Snapshot.

Just now, Darth Landy said:

You do realize K-wings and Advanced Slam are Wave 7 and not 10, right? They weren't a problem when they were first released, and not much has changed since then. Sure, we got Sabine, but again, once per turn.

I also strongly disagree with you on Snapshot and Feedback Array. Playing around them, like you say, is much easier said than done. Feedback Array is max one damage PER TURN. Sure it has a negative affect, but in multiples it can be far more devastating than Sabine. Same with Snapshot.

Sabine equals an extra damage and Cluster Mines damage output has also increased. Those two things combined have let bombs become much more effective. Also, Thermal Detonators have been released allowing for a control effect plus two damage. Sabine is very good. I don't think she's a problem though. I think its the combination of Advance Slam and her.

12 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

If you want to discount the opinion and experience of others, that is your choice. I still trust my friends' judgement and experience over yours.

All I'm saying is it just sounds more like sour grapes over losing to a particular build than a real game-breaking problem because the evidence just doesn't support it.

Perhaps we should just up the points of the standard tournament game, or allow for players to bring more than one list.

2 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Perhaps we should just up the points of the standard tournament game, or allow for players to bring more than one list.

I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of sideboard feature, so that when you see you are facing a certain build you can tweak your build a little, though not sure how to implement it.

Which is why 2 lists or just bigger lists is probably better. Its not like you're lugging a lot of stuff to xwing tournaments so its hardly a burden to bring 200points of stuff instead of 100.

As I've said, I do think the anti-ace tech has gone too far. (And bombing and Sabine are part of that.) I, personally, am not averse to a (mild) nerfing. Some possibilities:

(1) Probably enough - If you have a current and printed AGI of 3+, you may cancel one damage resulting from a Mine detonation. (This would include Sabine.)

(2) Stronger - You may roll a number of defense dice equal to your current AGI, and cancel one damage resulting from a Mine detonation for each [eyeball] rolled. (This would include Sabine.) You may not modify the roll in any fashion.

Fenn is showing up a lot in the upper standings at events and even winning them. This isn't an opinion based on what a friend told me, but what I've personally witnessed at tournaments and online.

I also think saying Soontir is unplayable now is a pretty big exaggeration. About a month ago we had a 40+ man event and Whisper, Soontir, and Duchess made Top 4. This list beat me and I was using Sabine and Clusters (although I wasn't using K-wings, but there were a few at this event and I don't believe any of them made Top 8). It's also worth noting that against me and my clusters, it was Soontir who was the last man standing.

So that shows players can still do well with Imp aces like Soontir if they know how to fly him well, it's just that Fenn is a better deal and has better support available to him (i.e. Mindlink and Manaroo). Maybe if Mindlink got a nerf, more Soontirs would come out to play.

1 hour ago, Darth Landy said:

All I'm saying is it just sounds more like sour grapes over losing to a particular build than a real game-breaking problem because the evidence just doesn't support it.

Nor does the evidence deny it.

30 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Nor does the evidence deny it.

But the heavy presence of Fenn and Old Teroch actually do deny it, though, to at least some extent.

What do they have (versus Mines and Sabine) that Imperial aces don't? I mean, Fangs can't even usually reposition twice like most Imperial aces can.

Gamblertuna makes a good point about Fenn Rau being at the top of the meta as a 4 hull ace. I think it's worth fleshing out why he is succeeding where imperial lists are failing. I would point towards 2 factors...

The first being that Fenn's damage output is higher than most imperial aces. He doesn't need to remain alive long for him to deal enough damage to be worth his points.

The second being that Fenn's support in the scum faction is rather robust. Schmidt players can trade him and win on attrition through big ships. If Imps lose an ace early the rest of the list is hardly so self-sufficient.

I think Fenn has displaced more imperial ace players than anything because he is far and away the best point for point ace in the game. Those who want an ace and aren't dedicated to a faction simply play scum.

There are however, aces for Imperials who come close to Fenn's power... They don't have compliments they can rely upon to eliminate a bombing threat. Having played a bomber against parattani, Fenn himself is still very weak to bombs but it's tough to roll your bomber towards him when it has to cruise through Asaaj the turn before. I feel this highlights the declining value of the imperial backbone - swarm.

Over time, particularly with the costing of the J5k, Shadowcaster, and Protectorate, Imperials have lost the cost-efficiency of many of their medium to low end ships. I think it's vital for the faction to regain that efficiency either in the form of cost reduction to old ships or low cost upgrades making swarms more synergistic. This would make the faction more equipped to trade in game openings with the goal of setting up a late game for the ace. The aggressor is going to help them flesh out the cat and mouse game but I don't think unguided rockets will be enough to help the faction in jousting scenarios against competitive lists.

Nerfing rebel bombs now may open things up a crack for Imperial pilots but it eliminates a rebel archetype and reduces the push-back against scum's overall efficiency - which may be a real problem since they are the faction with the two best large ships and the best ace, with more support on the way. I think we are far better off bringing Imperials into the new meta with buffs, rather than going backwards to support the PS race.

You can believe whatever opinions you want, but as others have said, you'll need to offer more than the veracity of your belief to convince others - and that would seem to be the point in posting about it on a forum.

21 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

...

How about this: a secondary title usable by basic TIEs and Interceptors; something like "Deflective Plating. TIE and TIE Interceptors only. Once per round, when your ship flies over a bomb token, you may re-roll one of the results. 0 Points."

I kinda like this idea. I'm to tempted to amp it up and give it an actual cost.

Deflective Panels (1 or 2 pt?) TIE only. Modification. Once per round you may reroll an attack die that is not part of any attack.

This would make it so you could also reroll asteroids and crit action repairs, or even Major Explosion and Console Fire which can be just as bad as bombs for fragile TIEs. Alternatively it could be a tie only ept or title named something like "Training Reflex". I could also see making this zero points if it was a 'discard this card to...'

Edit: on second thought I would add a line for either 'cannot use (or even equip?) if you have any shield tokens'

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

But the heavy presence of Fenn and Old Teroch actually do deny it, though, to at least some extent.

What do they have (versus Mines and Sabine) that Imperial aces don't? I mean, Fangs can't even usually reposition twice like most Imperial aces can.

To some, but only so far. Fenn is a sentient missile. He is going to die anyway, but can usually dish out enough damage to make it worth while, or the classic "kill them before they kill you" ploy. Old Terry is a little more odd, I'll admit, but is also of really good at making targets weaker for Fenn to kill. Plus, Terry is a lower pilot skill than the most common K-Wing Bomber (Miranda), which does have its advantages at least against the action bombs. You also have the frame advantage of the Fangs having four hull and the faction advantage of Mindlink.

Double repositioning doesn't actually help that much against bombers, especially if they move before you. Would help for reveal bombs, but they aren't as potential powerful as the action bombs on the market.

And finally, you have what is teamed up with the ace. Fangs have Jumpmasters, Lancers, and HWKs (going off what I remember of worlds top 16). Imp Aces options are more limited/less economically priced. Decimators can run good interference for an Ace, but gets really expensive and has a built in time limit of survival. The shuttles are limited by their dials (the upsilon is also getting on the expensive side), and the Imp Firespray isn't winning many awards either. To run interference for an Imp Ace, you probably need a few ships with high health or a swarm. Swarms have been down on their luck of late. The Defender is a solid frame, but what it's now weak against is going strong (stress control and ships like bumpmasters) making it an iffy tank to support aces. The /sf is probably the most resilient option the Imps have currently, but is not showing to stack up against the likes of Fennboats.

10 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

[Mostly true stuff.]

But all of that isn't a problem with bombing. You listed several reasons Scum aces have displaced Imperial aces, but none of them are "Imperial aces were driven out by bombing."

It seems like your nostalgia for Imperial aces is leading you to lay disproportionate blame for their disappearance on the wrong target. I'd suggest adjusting your scope ...

4 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

But all of that isn't a problem with bombing. You listed several reasons Scum aces have displaced Imperial aces, but none of them are "Imperial aces were driven out by bombing."

It seems like your nostalgia for Imperial aces is leading you to lay disproportionate blame for their disappearance on the wrong target. I'd suggest adjusting your scope ...

*shakes head* you wanted to know why bombs don't affect Fangs as much and I told you. Yes, Fangs replaced Imp Aces. Because they could survive better and had better back up. I don't think nerfing say the Fangs will bring Imp Aces back. It would probably just further push down the Ace Archtype.

And I'm sorry, but I don't exactly think your scopes are on point either.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

But the heavy presence of Fenn and Old Teroch actually do deny it, though, to at least some extent.

What do they have (versus Mines and Sabine) that Imperial aces don't? I mean, Fangs can't even usually reposition twice like most Imperial aces can.

They have a Jumpmaster that can soak up the bombs. Even then it's a hard matchup. For instance, Hoth Top 4 matchup with Duncan versus Haigwood. He makes one mistake, I don't even think it's a mistake and Fenn just died. Full health just died.

Those aces have better matchups versus versus the rest of the meta, such as stress. Mindlink doesn't have nearly that much of an issue with it like PTL aces do.

1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

Those aces have better matchups versus versus the rest of the meta, such as stress. Mindlink doesn't have nearly that much of an issue with it like PTL aces do.

Again. "Imperial Aces have problems with stress, so let's nerf bombing"?

3 hours ago, Darth Landy said:

I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of sideboard feature, so that when you see you are facing a certain build you can tweak your build a little, though not sure how to implement it.

They could just implement the Hanger Bay format, which takes some of the "Rock paper scissors" elements out of list building. However, that also makes it much more expensive to build a tournament list.

On 12/05/2017 at 9:53 PM, nitrobenz said:

I kinda like this idea. I'm to tempted to amp it up and give it an actual cost.

Deflective Panels (1 or 2 pt?) TIE only. Modification. Once per round you may reroll an attack die that is not part of any attack.

This would make it so you could also reroll asteroids and crit action repairs, or even Major Explosion and Console Fire which can be just as bad as bombs for fragile TIEs. Alternatively it could be a tie only ept or title named something like "Training Reflex". I could also see making this zero points if it was a 'discard this card to...'

Edit: on second thought I would add a line for either 'cannot use (or even equip?) if you have any shield tokens'

I'd go ahead and call it 'simple systems'.

It's a lot easier to put out your console fire when your console is exposed to hard vacuum anyway, after all.

And no, it would need to be one or 0 shields, OL is in just as nasty a place when it comes to bombs as Fel. I do like the idea of rerolling non-attack attack dice though, it could be even more widely usable and still be an interesting modification.