Combat Ingenuity (an upgrade coming out in the Reanimate Archers box) says:

"The number of [surge] that precedes your [surge] abilities is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. This does not affect [surge]+ abilities."

Ardus, either as a unit or upgrade, says:

"[Melee Attack Only] Add 1 white die. This attack is treated as having the surge abilities (both [melee] and [ranged] of allies at range 1-3)."

If Ardus is at range 1-3 of a unit of Archers with this upgrade, is he treated as having the ability as written on their card, or the ability as modified by their upgrade? In other words, does he need one surge or two in order to give his foe a blight token?

As far as I understand, he can use both general and upgrade abilities from any friendly unit on 1-3 range. BUT not any other thing.

If you want ardus skill in combination to combat ingenuity, place him as a champion on a reanimate unit and SPAM blights!!! Suggestion, you can also place a near unit with master crafted weapons (for example 2x1 carrion lancers) and add direct damage on one surge. You can forget about blighting and do up to an enormousity of 6 damage. In a threat 4 unit that would be... 24 damage!!!!!!!!!!!!! (16-20 damage will happen more often)

Of course, that's a 95 points unit + the carrion lancer unit. But if you are tired of seeing your enemies rid of blight too easily it's a good choice

I think we're going to need a designer/developer to weigh in on this one. However, strictly going by the words printed on the cards, I think Ardus would be able to blight for 1 surge. Combat Ingenuity is not asking the equipped unit to treat its surge abilities as costing one less, it is literally reducing the cost of that units' surge abilities. When Ardus' ability looks at that unit card to copy the surge ability, it should only "see" a 1-surge blight ability.

If the developers wanted Combat Ingenuity to not interact with Ardus' ability, the card would have needed to be worded as something along the lines of "You treat the number of [surge] that precede your [surge] abilities as being reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1." In that case, "you" refers to the equipped unit, so only the equipped unit would get to use the reduced-cost for its surge abilities. But Combat Ingenuity's effect is not specific to the unit it is equipped on; it basically rewrites the surge ability as printed on the card.

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

I think we're going to need a designer/developer to weigh in on this one. However, strictly going by the words printed on the cards, I think Ardus would be able to blight for 1 surge. Combat Ingenuity is not asking the equipped unit to treat its surge abilities as costing one less, it is literally reducing the cost of that units' surge abilities. When Ardus' ability looks at that unit card to copy the surge ability, it should only "see" a 1-surge blight ability.

If the developers wanted Combat Ingenuity to not interact with Ardus' ability, the card would have needed to be worded as something along the lines of "You treat the number of [surge] that precede your [surge] abilities as being reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1." In that case, "you" refers to the equipped unit, so only the equipped unit would get to use the reduced-cost for its surge abilities. But Combat Ingenuity's effect is not specific to the unit it is equipped on; it basically rewrites the surge ability as printed on the card.

This is how I'm leaning as well, but really I could see them ruling it either way. Hope we get a FAQ and some tournament rules soon.

RAW i would imagine he gets the reduced surge requirement ability, since its not "You may treat your surge abilities as requiring 1 less surge" its flatout reducing it by 1.
But that seems kinda cheesy as youre also upgrading Ardus for nothing. Bleh, hope we get a faq soon to clear these things up.

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

I think we're going to need a designer/developer to weigh in on this one. However, strictly going by the words printed on the cards, I think Ardus would be able to blight for 1 surge. Combat Ingenuity is not asking the equipped unit to treat its surge abilities as costing one less, it is literally reducing the cost of that units' surge abilities. When Ardus' ability looks at that unit card to copy the surge ability, it should only "see" a 1-surge blight ability.

If the developers wanted Combat Ingenuity to not interact with Ardus' ability, the card would have needed to be worded as something along the lines of "You treat the number of [surge] that precede your [surge] abilities as being reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1." In that case, "you" refers to the equipped unit, so only the equipped unit would get to use the reduced-cost for its surge abilities. But Combat Ingenuity's effect is not specific to the unit it is equipped on; it basically rewrites the surge ability as printed on the card.

My position is: combat ingenuity isn't a surge ability card. So ardus may use the original text of the skills. I see no reasons why he could use that upgrade card.

The number of surge that precedes your surge abilities is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. This does not affect surge+ abilities.

"Your"refers to the unit wielding that card. And as I said it isn't a surge ability, but another kind of upgrade card so ardus cannot use it.

If you want that combo, put ardus on reanimates and equip combat ingenuity on reanimates. You can easily have 1 or 2 surges to make a good carnage

14 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

My position is: combat ingenuity isn't a surge ability card. So ardus may use the original text of the skills. I see no reasons why he could use that upgrade card.

The number of surge that precedes your surge abilities is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. This does not affect surge+ abilities.

"Your"refers to the unit wielding that card. And as I said it isn't a surge ability, but another kind of upgrade card so ardus cannot use it.

If you want that combo, put ardus on reanimates and equip combat ingenuity on reanimates. You can easily have 1 or 2 surges to make a good carnage

He doesn't use that upgrade card. He uses the surge ability that has essentially been rewritten by Combat Ingenuity.

If a Reanimate Archer unit has Combat Ingenuity it no longer has an ability that costs 2 surges for a blight token. It has an ability that that costs 1 surge for a blight token. Ardus couldn't pay 2 surges for a single blight token even if he wanted to unless there was another unit of archers in range that did not have Combat Ingenuity.

Combat Ingenuity doesn't have any sort of trigger. It's always on and is always modifying the ability of the archers.

Double post.

9 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

My position is: combat ingenuity isn't a surge ability card. So ardus may use the original text of the skills. I see no reasons why he could use that upgrade card.

The number of surge that precedes your surge abilities is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. This does not affect surge+ abilities.

"Your"refers to the unit wielding that card. And as I said it isn't a surge ability, but another kind of upgrade card so ardus cannot use it.

If you want that combo, put ardus on reanimates and equip combat ingenuity on reanimates. You can easily have 1 or 2 surges to make a good carnage

I see your point, but I'm not saying that Ardus can "use" Combat Ingenuity. I'm saying that Ardus' abilities looks at the Reanimate Archer's card. That unit has a surge ability there. But as long as that unit has Combat Ingenuity equipped, that ability has one fewer surge in front of it. When Ardus uses that surge ability, it has no reference to original cost or modified cost. All his ability sees is an ally's surge ability, and this ally has a surge ability that only costs 1 surge.

Do I think your interpretation is how the developers will rule it? Yes. Is that how it works as written? No.

2 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I see your point, but I'm not saying that Ardus can "use" Combat Ingenuity. I'm saying that Ardus' abilities looks at the Reanimate Archer's card. That unit has a surge ability there. But as long as that unit has Combat Ingenuity equipped, that ability has one fewer surge in front of it. When Ardus uses that surge ability, it has no reference to original cost or modified cost. All his ability sees is an ally's surge ability, and this ally has a surge ability that only costs 1 surge.

Do I think your interpretation is how the developers will rule it? Yes. Is that how it works as written? No.

A simple "When attacking," added to the beginning of Combat Ingenuity via errata is all that it would take to make it work like that.

I had a similar discussion on facebook. I think it's deliberately misreading.

It's obvious that this is not the spirit of combat ingenuity and the reading doesn't clearly indicate that.

5 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

I had a similar discussion on facebook. I think it's deliberately misreading.

It's obvious that this is not the spirit of combat ingenuity and the reading doesn't clearly indicate that.

On the contrary, I think it's misreading to play a card differently than how it's worded unless there has been an official ruling that changes the card.

Also, I don't think this against the spirit of Combat Ingenuity because Combat Ingenuity isn't the problem -- it's Ardus. He's the one using other units' surge abilities. If it weren't for his ability, there would be no question that Combat Ingenuity only affects the unit that equipped it.

Maybe with this combo he will be worth his points compared to Kari?

The thing about this card is that is specifically changes "your abilities", so I agree here that Ardus clearly benefits. If the Combat Ingenuity said "The cost for you to use surge abilities is reduced...." then the 'you' in question would be the equipped unit only I'd think.

The rulebook says, when upgrade cards are in second person, they refer to the unit bearing the card.

2 hours ago, druchii7 said:

The rulebook says, when upgrade cards are in second person, they refer to the unit bearing the card.

Ardus isn't using the card. Combat Ingenuity appears to statically alter the surge abilities of the unit it is assigned to. If their surge abilities are always 1 less surge, they would still cost 1 less surge when Ardus is utilizing them.

On 5/10/2017 at 11:02 PM, Doodlebug said:

Maybe with this combo he will be worth his points compared to Kari?

Host of crows can be well worth his points in my opinion.

5 hours ago, druchii7 said:

The rulebook says, when upgrade cards are in second person, they refer to the unit bearing the card.

The thing that you seem to be missing is that it is the Reanimate Archers to which the card is equipped that is using the card. Combat Ingenuity is an always on card. As long as the card is equipped Combat Ingenuity is in effect. There is no triggering event or conditions that need to be met for the effect to take place.

It is similar to a card like Might of Daqan. When Lord Hawthorne has this equipped, his defense becomes 4. It doesn't matter what effect is checking his defense, the defense value is 4.

Imagine that there's a hypothetical unit with the text "When defending, you may use the defense of a friendly unit at range 1-3 as if it were your own." If Hawthorne had Might of Daqan equipped and was at range two when this unit was defending against an attack, would there be any question about whether you'd use 3 or 4 as his defense?

The ability of Ardus Ix'Erebus is worded that, "This attack is treated as having the surge abilities of allies at range 1-3." (slight abbreviated but this suites our purpose). So Ardus basically has a copy of the ability of, for example, the Reanimate Archers at range 1-3. Those archers have the Combat Ingenuity upgrade which states that "The number of surges that precede your surge abilities is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. This does not affect surge+ abilities." Now this card has a constant and passive effect on the Reanimate Archers blighting surge ability. The only way (that we know of so far) to cancel this upgrade's effect would be to have a Mistlands Saboteur do its thing in an undead mirror match. Assuming that doesn't happen, the Reanimate Archers ability is changed constantly according to the effect of Combat Ingenuity. Thus when Ardus' attack 'is treated as having the surge abilities of allies at range 1-3', the current abilities of those allies are copied. Ardus is copying the blighting ability with the effect of Combat Ingenuity.

It is correct that second person references do refer to the unit the upgrade is on. Combat Ingenuity wouldn't normally apply to any unit except the equipped unit. Ardus' ability, however, specifically states that he 'copies the ability' and since the ability is changed you don't just copy what's written on the reanimate archers. You have to copy what the ability currently is. So until those Mistlands Saboteurs show up and ruin the party, he gets the improved ability.

The key point here is that Combat Ingenuity expressly modifies the ability. It does not modify the Reanimate Archers' use of the ability. If Combat Ingenuity was worded, "When you use your surge abilities, their surge cost is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. This does not affect surge+ abilities" then Ardus would not gain this benefit.

Now, they may release a FAQ or Errata on this ability in the distant future at some point that contradicts my points here. But for now, I don't see any other way to interpret this. I know most of you are on this same page already, but it seemed like some may have yet been unconvinced, so I decided to write this up. Hopefully I'm not just beating a dead horse

On 2017-5-12 at 4:20 PM, WWHSD said:

The thing that you seem to be missing is that it is the Reanimate Archers to which the card is equipped that is using the card. Combat Ingenuity is an always on card. As long as the card is equipped Combat Ingenuity is in effect. There is no triggering event or conditions that need to be met for the effect to take place.

It is similar to a card like Might of Daqan. When Lord Hawthorne has this equipped, his defense becomes 4. It doesn't matter what effect is checking his defense, the defense value is 4.

Imagine that there's a hypothetical unit with the text "When defending, you may use the defense of a friendly unit at range 1-3 as if it were your own." If Hawthorne had Might of Daqan equipped and was at range two when this unit was defending against an attack, would there be any question about whether you'd use 3 or 4 as his defense?

I can only accept your vision if you admit that a reanimate unit with ardus cannot use combat ingenuity card for skills that aren't theirs.

However I insist on my position.

A reanimate unit with ardus and C.I. can use all the 2 surges skills spending a single surge. But combat ingenuity from others do not affect solo nor champion upgrade Ardus.

Hmm, it would be great to get a ruling on this. How does one go about getting that? Or is it simply to wait for a FAQ and hope for it?

Fantasy Flight has a form for game questions... I'll submit this one.

...

It is submitted. I'll post it here when I get a response.

10 minutes ago, player1828640 said:

Fantasy Flight has a form for game questions... I'll submit this one.

...

It is submitted. I'll post it here when I get a response.

IF you get a response. There are rules questions that were submitted in March that are still pending answers from FFG.

Rrg 1.7 effectively states. Upgrade only apply to the unit wearing them. Ardus per his text has access to the surge ability only, not the upgrade card. He also fails the 'your' check, as above (88.4 you is this unit only, must be equipped).

They used to be really good about answering questions... of course that was before Asmodee...