Force Exile Talent Tree Confusion

By thkaal, in Star Wars: Edge of the Empire RPG

So let me get this straight:

Uncanny Reaction -> Quick Draw -> Touch of Fate -> Street Smarts -> Uncanny Reaction -> Balance (which is cheaper, thus easier) -> Intense Focus (which is even cheaper and thus even more easy.)

Is that correct? You MUST get the easier ones after you get the harder ones? True, I can see overwhelm emotions as being way harder than sensing emotions, but that's if you're trying to do a group. I mean, it is easier to smash the clay statue than to detect the awesomeness of the clay statue.

So I assume you don't like the tree structure?

Sometimes you have to learn how to do a subject properly before you can put it's simpler applications into practice. One can't claim to be balanced with the force until they have interacted with it for some time, thus after learning to be in touch with fate, recovery and task priority becomes much easier.

That and trees. I wouldn't necessarily say that being lighter on EXP = easier to learn.

If you are forced to take other talents in order to reach a particular talent, then it isn't actually cheaper, regardless of the objective XP cost.

So describing the narrative in regards to the pathway is good, but that's not what the devs are necessarily doing with this style of Talent tree. The trees are mechanics so what they are doing is trying to structure things in this tree where they have multiple Talents they consider valuable enough, and deserving enough to have a bottom row cost, but they're out of bottom row slots.

I wouldn't get too fussed about the tree structure and costs. It's a game, so it has structure. Sometimes attempting to model the universe bumps up against the simplified structure of the game.

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

I wouldn't get too fussed about the tree structure and costs. It's a game, so it has structure. Sometimes attempting to model the universe bumps up against the simplified structure of the game.

Yeah. That reminds me of Exalted fandom. During previous editions (dunno how it's now) fans, and some writers, had a tendency to equate in-universe elements with rules concepts. It makes for the occasional fun conversation and can inspire you, but it's not productive as the primary way to think about the game.

It just didn't make sense to me that a tier 2 talent came after a tier four talent.

Then don't look at Gambler, it'll make your head explode. ?

Then don't think of it as a Tier-II talent. It's a Tier-VI talent, but to make it fit nicely on the page instead of having to display the tree with additional dimensions, they wrapped it up inside the rest of the tree.

Really, as 2P51 said, the reason is because those are powerful talents that should not be available until the character has made a significant XP investment into the tree. However, they already had four of those in Force Rating, Dedication, and the two Defense talents. So they needed to make them harder to access without ruining the 20-talent, 300-XP tree format. So they give those talents extra prereqs to force you to spend more XP before you get to them.

This is also not unique to the Exile. Off the top of my head, the Emergent, Sharpshooter, Teacher, definitely the Gambler, I think the Archaeologist, and I'm certain a couple of other specializations have instances where you need to buy a higher-Tier talent before you can get to a lower-Tier one that's hiding in a pocket. The XP cost given doesn't mean that talent is "easy to learn," is just a metagame construction for character advancement, and the costs are arranged to keep things consistent and fair. That's all.

Edited by Absol197
9 hours ago, thkaal said:

It just didn't make sense to me that a tier 2 talent came after a tier four talent.

A lot of times they build the trees to allow players to advance in different ways. The left side of the tree, for example, might be talents focused around the combat elements of the specialization, improving the PC's combat effectiveness. But the right side of the tree, is the more sensory related, reactionary talents, improving the PC's awareness and social effectiveness. That way, based on your particular concept, you can start from either side, but still be able to then build over into the other side, without having to pick a new point on the tree and working down. You can just wrap around the edge and work back up.

13 hours ago, thkaal said:

It just didn't make sense to me that a tier 2 talent came after a tier four talent.

I would pose the question, "why shouldn't it make sense?" Perhaps if it doesn't make sense, you could broaden your scope of sensibility! Try and find ways that you can mesh your expectations with the game design. There have been several suggestions posted already, ranging from story, to mechanical balance, to contextual metagame considerations. Maybe try one or more of those suggestions on for size, see if it helps you reconcile things in your brain.

Not only that, but remember that the positioning of talents in a talent tree, just like the talents themselves, is an abstraction. Same as your wound & strain thresholds, same as skill ranks, same as XP itself. They are numbers that can mean all sorts of things. Their end is to help in telling a good, fun, Star Wars story. So I'd start there. "How can this 10 XP talent help me tell a better Star Wars story, and have more fun, with my character?"

Full list of specializations that have at least one instance of this. 'Cause I'm me.

Agitator;

Archaeologist;

Armorer;

Force-Sensitive Emergent*;

Force-Sensitive Exile*;

Gambler*;

Heavy;

Hermit;

Hunter;

Niman Disciple;

Quartermaster*;

Scoundrel*;

Shadow;

Sharpshooter;

Squadron Leader;

Teacher*.

* This tree users this technique as a major part of its talent layout.

So clearly, this is not unusual and is something used, for whatever reason, too help with balancing specializations on a semi-frequent basis.