5 hours ago, SOTL said:The meta is clearly better now. But it could be better still. Every round of nerfs makes thing better but is still (bizarrely) resisted with incredible zeal.
How is it clearly better now? An entire faction is under preforming. The last time something close to this happened was with U-Boats pushing out low AGI Rebel ships. Was that better?
Just now, SabineKey said:How is it clearly better now? An entire faction is under preforming. The last time something close to this happened was with U-Boats pushing out low AGI Rebel ships. Was that better?
If you're not unreasonably attached to a faction you've got far more options. Yes, those options are primarily in Scum or Rebel but just a few months ago the meta was so prescriptive it was almost becoming a fixed couple of lists, let alone a fixed couple of factions.
And the current meta has Imperials in a better place than Rebels were during U-Boats.
5 minutes ago, SOTL said:If you're not unreasonably attached to a faction you've got far more options. Yes, those options are primarily in Scum or Rebel but just a few months ago the meta was so prescriptive it was almost becoming a fixed couple of lists, let alone a fixed couple of factions.
And the current meta has Imperials in a better place than Rebels were during U-Boats.
The reign of paratani was so short, that we can't even sure if it would have lasted. Palp Aces and Torpscouts were on their way out and lost a lot of their dominance before the nerfs hit them much ... well outside of that small R4 change.
3 minutes ago, SOTL said:If you're not unreasonably attached to a faction you've got far more options. Yes, those options are primarily in Scum or Rebel but just a few months ago the meta was so prescriptive it was almost becoming a fixed couple of lists, let alone a fixed couple of factions.
And the current meta has Imperials in a better place than Rebels were during U-Boats.
Still similar enough to the U-Boat situation for me to worry.
And I think you are missing a huge point. Part of a healthy meta is all three factions working. Look at last year's worlds. All three factions were represented in the top four. I would much rather that meta than one where an entire faction is under preforming is considered acceptable.
2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:Still similar enough to the U-Boat situation for me to worry.
And I think you are missing a huge point. Part of a healthy meta is all three factions working. Look at last year's worlds. All three factions were represented in the top four. I would much rather that meta than one where an entire faction is under preforming is considered acceptable.
I don't really look at the game along faction lines, I look at it across squad/mechanics lines.
Just now, SOTL said:I don't really look at the game along faction lines, I look at it across squad/mechanics lines.
Good for you. Others don't. And simply saying that it is "unreasonable" to be attached to a particular faction is in itself unreasonable.
Just now, SabineKey said:Good for you. Others don't. And simply saying that it is "unreasonable" to be attached to a particular faction is in itself unreasonable.
Oh I'm attached to a faction (Imperial) but I'm not *unreasonably* attached. I would prefer to play Imperial but I'm happy to play other factions.
When you decide to self-impose your view of the game to 1/3rd of the available options you have to accept a certain amount of responsibility if at any one time not many of the best options are in that 1/3rd.
1 minute ago, SOTL said:Oh I'm attached to a faction (Imperial) but I'm not *unreasonably* attached. I would prefer to play Imperial but I'm happy to play other factions.
When you decide to self-impose your view of the game to 1/3rd of the available options you have to accept a certain amount of responsibility if at any one time not many of the best options are in that 1/3rd.
That's the problem. Empire already had not many best options, hense the prevalence of Palp and Defenders. Then, they were taken away and the Empire was left with no best options. Look at the last few System Opens and Worlds. A lack of truly competitive Empire lists. That is unhealthy. Add to that the overwhelming number of scum lists at the tops of those tournaments. The faction balance is majorly out of whack, thus unhealthy.
14 minutes ago, SOTL said:I don't really look at the game along faction lines, I look at it across squad/mechanics lines.
If we're talking game balance we need to look at faction lines. I've played all three factions. I like elements of all factions. SabineKey has a valid point: the faction balance, and therefore the game balance is off.
5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:That's the problem. Empire already had not many best options, hense the prevalence of Palp and Defenders. Then, they were taken away and the Empire was left with no best options. Look at the last few System Opens and Worlds. A lack of truly competitive Empire lists. That is unhealthy. Add to that the overwhelming number of scum lists at the tops of those tournaments. The faction balance is majorly out of whack, thus unhealthy.
I do agree on that point, but the Empire also has the largest number of proven 'legacy' builds that we know are very good and will return when the metagame is right. It's not that their ships are underpowered, it's that a specific factor is keeping them away.
18 minutes ago, SOTL said:Oh I'm attached to a faction (Imperial) but I'm not *unreasonably* attached. I would prefer to play Imperial but I'm happy to play other factions.
When you decide to self-impose your view of the game to 1/3rd of the available options you have to accept a certain amount of responsibility if at any one time not many of the best options are in that 1/3rd.
Could not agree more with this.
Making a deliberate choice to limit yourself to 1/3 of the available options is simply crazy it you have any desire to compete.
Edited by Stevey865 minutes ago, SOTL said:I do agree on that point, but the Empire also has the largest number of proven 'legacy' builds that we know are very good and will return when the metagame is right. It's not that their ships are underpowered, it's that a specific factor is keeping them away.
And that is the same situation that U-Boats created for Rebels.
27 minutes ago, SabineKey said:Good for you. Others don't. And simply saying that it is "unreasonable" to be attached to a particular faction is in itself unreasonable.
25 minutes ago, SOTL said:Oh I'm attached to a faction (Imperial) but I'm not *unreasonably* attached. I would prefer to play Imperial but I'm happy to play other factions.
When you decide to self-impose your view of the game to 1/3rd of the available options you have to accept a certain amount of responsibility if at any one time not many of the best options are in that 1/3rd.
First off, if true, this is incredibly troubling in a pure business/customer angle. Lovers of this game have given hundreds of dollars to FFG to enjoy playing the miniatures the company has designed and implemented for the game. So, if the company that enjoys our money in exchange for gaming pieces changes what we purchased via a forum write-up render our components less that usable, should we be OK with that? Sure there are issues that arise with games like this, we all understand the complex mechanics. We can easily use the Defender Expansion's original squad cost to it's usability issue that was later corrected via the Imperial Aces expansion as an example. The bonus for FFG in that corrective measure is they not only made money on the sales of the original Expansion, but they made arguably more money in the subsequent "fix" Expansion. In addition to the money, they made Imperial players more happy about the game and therefore FFG's product. I think what myself and others (much more gifted and intelligent on this forum, @SabineKey as an example) are trying to voice is the fact that we believe ---based on our personal experiences and review of recent tournament data--- that some of the FAQ 4.3.0's errata deemed to Bring Balance to the Force (game) have possibly done quite the opposite.
Edited by clanofwolvesI'll repeat (again) what I said at the time of the FAQ
"That's a good start but I'm worried about Mindlink, TLT and Ordnance".
Things are better now, but could be (and probably need to be) better still.
12 minutes ago, SOTL said:I do agree on that point, but the Empire also has the largest number of proven 'legacy' builds that we know are very good and will return when the metagame is right. It's not that their ships are underpowered, it's that a specific factor is keeping them away.
Such as?
Just now, SOTL said:I'll repeat (again) what I said at the time of the FAQ
"That's a good start but I'm worried about Mindlink, TLT and Ordnance".
Things are better now, but could be (and probably need to be) better still.
Again, I don't think things are better. Scum still dominate. Rebels aren't as prevalent, but still get top spots. From a broad perspective, the only thing that has changed is that Imperials now aren't keeping up with the other two factions. That's a troubling result for something that was suppose to bring balance.
X-7's are at the core of what the Worlds meta needed to counter. x-7's are by no means bad at this point in the game, everybody at worlds was simply too well prepared to deal with them for them to stand any proper chance.
4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:Again, I don't think things are better. Scum still dominate. Rebels aren't as prevalent, but still get top spots. From a broad perspective, the only thing that has changed is that Imperials now aren't keeping up with the other two factions. That's a troubling result for something that was suppose to bring balance.
Pre-FAQ the Rebels weren't 'prevalent' at all, they were clinging on.
Yes that situation flipped, but after 10 months in the shitcan maybe it's time the Rebels had the upper hand?
1 minute ago, SOTL said:Pre-FAQ the Rebels weren't 'prevalent' at all, they were clinging on.
Yes that situation flipped, but after 10 months in the shitcan maybe it's time the Rebels had the upper hand?
But they don't have the upper hand. Scum does. And if it was bad that Rebels were clinging on, why isn't the Empire's fall bad as well?
I don't really know what you're point is other than that you're right and anything anybody else says is wrong?
6 minutes ago, SOTL said:I don't really know what you're point is other than that you're right and anything anybody else says is wrong?
My point is the meta isn't clearly better like you claimed.
6 minutes ago, SOTL said:Pre-FAQ the Rebels weren't 'prevalent' at all, they were clinging on.
Yes that situation flipped, but after 10 months in the shitcan maybe it's time the Rebels had the upper hand?
That shows two interesting things:
1. The balance between factions was **** in May 2016
2. The balance between factions is **** in May 2017
Personally I can't relate to people sticking to one faction, but I understand that some just do so. And the situation is **** for them.
The Empire had amazing diversity a year ago, with numerous possible 30-35pt ace combinations. I always wished to have something similar for rebels - and I still do - because their ships are always 5pts too expensive to build similar list types.
Thinking about the reasons as to why the formerly dominating ships are now unplayable is certainly worthwile. And the problem can't be x7 and Palp, only, because there were lists without either of them. So what changed? Jumpmaster, Asajj, Fenn, Mindlink, Bombs/Ordnance?
The jumpmaster is slightly comparable to Dash, and the ImpAces had no problem there. Miranda+Sabine/Biggs were already available, too.
So why are ImpAces suddenly unplayable in the current meta?
5 minutes ago, SOTL said:I don't really know what you're point is other than that you're right and anything anybody else says is wrong?
Her point is that the rebels are not better off, the empire is just worse off, while the scum dominance increased even more compared to 2016.
Though I agree that the x7 ain't bad. They are not a meta list right now, not tripple ones at least, but they are still a valid tool in the arsenal of the empire. I have a hard time to see more of those tools. Imperial Aces is dead, that is not a factor based on what is currently played, but rather what you can overall play. And anything else is … well a little outdated and not up to the task of the new or old power levels.
Unguided missiles might help here a little, TLTs may or may not work on empire, but I fail to see tools for older imperial powerhouses to return in power, because they lack power in general.
Rebels have made it to the final table of literally every Worlds. When's the last time the Empire was seen at the final table? During the Whisper/Fat Han meta?
2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:Her point is that the rebels are not better off, the empire is just worse off, while the scum dominance increased even more compared to 2016.
Though I agree that the x7 ain't bad. They are not a meta list right now, not tripple ones at least, but they are still a valid tool in the arsenal of the empire. I have a hard time to see more of those tools. Imperial Aces is dead, that is not a factor based on what is currently played, but rather what you can overall play. And anything else is … well a little outdated and not up to the task of the new or old power levels.
Well Rebels are definitely better off - Heaver open win, Stele open win, bonkers rebels Jank in two of the top 4 Worlds slots.
And again, we're not comparing to 2016 we're compared to pre-nerf 2017.
Take down bombs and TLT a bit and you'll see Vader, Whisper, Soontir, Inquisitor, O.Leader, Howlrunner all come back. They're still objectively good.