So, RAW-wise, cybernetics seem to count as equipment. Does that mean that sunder can be used to damage/destroy external cybernetics like limbs?

At first I thought such a ruling would make cybernetics a liability vs lightsabers, but it also means that those advantages arent spent on that juicy crit score.

Discuss!

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Sunder(Active)

When activated, the attacker chooses one item openly wielded by the target (such as a weapon, shield, or item on a belt).

AoR CRB p. 170

One can argue that cybernetics are items, and limbs would certainly be "openly wielded".

One can argue about the existence of unicorns, that doesn't establish validity of an argument at all.

Unicorns aren't listed as equipment though.

And Sunder never uses the word 'equipment'.

For anyone needing RAW on the definition of the word 'wield'.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/wielded

Wield

2.

I'm with 2P51 on this - a cybernetic limb is part of the character, not something they're wielding, and any argument that it counts as wielded would apply just as well to a 'natural' limb. If you want to do anything to it, you'll need an appropriate crit effect.

I suppose that if you could use sunder on a cybernetic limb that someone had picked up and was actually wielding as an improvised weapon (club). That's pretty corner-case though.

Dictionaries are fine, but when the rule explicitly includes "an item on a belt" it clearly ingludes things that are not literally hand-held.

How would you treat a called shot to the (cybernetic) arm?

I'd lean towards applying sunder in lieu of causing wounds or crits, but I'd love to hear other peoples opinions and reasoning.

You lose body parts from Critical Injuries, regardless of whether those parts are artificial replacements or original issue. I think it would be unfair to have them also lost to sunder activation; that's doubling the means. Worse, with the exception of a Martial Artist with Supreme Precision Strike (which won't work with anything that has Sunder, IIRC), crits are random, and sunder is not.

Also, I think any argument that you can sunder cybernetics would also apply to pieces of droids, which would also totally suck.

I feel like this falls somewhere in the venn diagram of Aim - Called Shots and Sunder. While the devs haven't commented on cybernetics they have commented on sundering armor and they were very clear that such a thing would be "tricky" and "up to the GM". The Devs are usually pretty good about calling out rules text when it is obvious and to me they make it sound like more of a house rule or GM discretion sort of thing. I feel like sundering cybernetics would be similar to sundering armor. Next, the rules text is also pretty clear that Aim - Called Shots are a GMs discretion thing.

To me that means Sundering cybernetics falls almost completely in the GM's discretion arena. And as always, when it comes to GMing advice, what works for one game won't always work for another. In my personal opinion, Sunder is like a D&D rust monster. Strategically destroying a bit of troublesome equipment can be beneficial to the story if used strategically or it can be what we call in the industry a D*ck Move. Sundering your players comm to prevent them from radioing for help, that seems cool. Sundering a 10,000 credit piece of gear that is negatively impacting the game (for being OP or whatever) might be okay. Sundering a 10,000 piece of gear that is replacing a body part you are likely responsible for cutting off in the first place and well, that's a good bit worse. I'm not saying that there aren't stories that sundering a cybernetics wouldn't be cool. I'm just saying I wouldn't make it a standard house rule or anything.

For this type of thing, I usually follow my players lead. If I have a player who wants to called shot and sunder my enemies cybernetics then I might let him do it so that I can do it back to them at some later date. That way no one ever thinks it feels unfair.

I would allow for the Sundering of Weapons but not cybernetics. It is assumed that both parties are doing their very best to maim their opponent in whatever way is possible. Adding arbitrary ways of cutting people makes it a race of "who can hit their called shots first?"

So cybernetics that are being used as weapons? Sure maybe. But otherwise no unless it is climatically epic. I had a cybernetic arm ripped off by Guri as I was piloting the Virago, that's the epic kind of limb loss that would be the exception to the rule, but not the standard rule.

If you allow someone to sever a cybernetic arm or leg with Sunder, you really have no logical reason not to let them use it to sever an organic arm or leg as well. Things might just go a bit downhill from there.

I think if you're not allowing armour to be sundered (which seems to be the dev intention based on the question I got answered recently), sundering cybernetics seems unfair. If you do allow armour to be sundered, it's a bit more murky. But like Krieger said above me, it's a real slippery slope; why can you destroy a cybernetic limb and not a real one? Lightsabers certainly don't struggle with flesh.

2 hours ago, Tom Cruise said:

I think if you're not allowing armour to be sundered (which seems to be the dev intention based on the question I got answered recently), sundering cybernetics seems unfair. If you do allow armour to be sundered, it's a bit more murky. But like Krieger said above me, it's a real slippery slope; why can you destroy a cybernetic limb and not a real one? Lightsabers certainly don't struggle with flesh.

To add further support to this, Cortosis on armor doesn't give Sunder protection despite the fact that it give it on a weapon. To me the obvious reason is that Sunder was never intended to be used on armor. And as you say, if you can't sunder armor then I see no reason you should be able to sunder a cybernetics.

On 5/9/2017 at 0:44 PM, Krieger22 said:

If you allow someone to sever a cybernetic arm or leg with Sunder, you really have no logical reason not to let them use it to sever an organic arm or leg as well. Things might just go a bit downhill from there.

That was my thought exactly. Though, in my game, the 'loose a limb' crit has come up 4 times on PCs, and on almost every major villain so far...

On 5/8/2017 at 8:56 PM, penpenpen said:

Dictionaries are fine, but when the rule explicitly includes "an item on a belt" it clearly ingludes things that are not literally hand-held.

How would you treat a called shot to the (cybernetic) arm?

I'd lean towards applying sunder in lieu of causing wounds or crits, but I'd love to hear other peoples opinions and reasoning.

Well, my waist is "on my belt", so does that mean they can sunder my hips? No, because that level of rule nitpicking is just silly.

And you don't wield your arm, your arm wields something it's holding.

As to called shots on an arm, cybernetic or otherwise, I'd likely inflict a critical effect that is appropriate, but the called shot would be much harder to actually accomplish.

If they are say..shooting a guy who is wielding a lightsaber, and do a called shot to his hand, I'd have the successful shot likely cause him to drop the saber. He can always pick it back up, but that requires a maneuver to accomplish and can hinder what he will do for the next turn.

It really depends on what is being attempted. If the goal is to just inflict severe damage to a specific body part, I'd lean towards a crit effect. If they are trying to do something else, like disarm the guy, I'd do that.

29 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

As to called shots on an arm, cybernetic or otherwise, I'd likely inflict a critical effect that is appropriate, but the called shot would be much harder to actually accomplish.

If they are say..shooting a guy who is wielding a lightsaber, and do a called shot to his hand, I'd have the successful shot likely cause him to drop the saber. He can always pick it back up, but that requires a maneuver to accomplish and can hinder what he will do for the next turn.

It really depends on what is being attempted. If the goal is to just inflict severe damage to a specific body part, I'd lean towards a crit effect. If they are trying to do something else, like disarm the guy, I'd do that.

Now we get to an interesting part. If you take a hit to your cybernetic arm, should that result in wounds or crits? Would you be in pain? Presumably cybernetics in Star Wars have advanced to the point where you have at least some sensation in them (Luke reacts when shot in the hand) but I cant for the life of me understand why a cybernetic limb would register crippling pain.
I mean, if someone sticks their cybernetic arm into a wood chipper it's certainly very bad for the arm, but the person it's attached to shouldn't be worse off than simply having no arm to begin with, right? What I'm getting at, IF you'd allow sunder to cybernetic limb, wouldn't it also be fair to disregard any wounds and crits that such a hit would cause? I mean, a hypothetical situation where someone wants to try to sever someones cybernetic arm in order not to hurt them isn't too far fetched, is it?

Oh, and to clarify, this has gone past a rules question/interpretation into house rules as this point.

8 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Now we get to an interesting part. If you take a hit to your cybernetic arm, should that result in wounds or crits?

Again, depends on what the intended attack was trying to cause. Or at least that's my take on it. I would most likely default to criticals, but, seeing as there are talents that allow you to do that more easily, I'd make sure it was more difficult to accomplish than the talents that let you inflict criticals more easily.

10 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Would you be in pain? Presumably cybernetics in Star Wars have advanced to the point where you have at least some sensation in them (Luke reacts when shot in the hand) but I cant for the life of me understand why a cybernetic limb would register crippling pain.
I mean, if someone sticks their cybernetic arm into a wood chipper it's certainly very bad for the arm, but the person it's attached to shouldn't be worse off than simply having no arm to begin with, right? What I'm getting at, IF you'd allow sunder to cybernetic limb, wouldn't it also be fair to disregard any wounds and crits that such a hit would cause? I mean, a hypothetical situation where someone wants to try to sever someones cybernetic arm in order not to hurt them isn't too far fetched, is it?

Oh, and to clarify, this has gone past a rules question/interpretation into house rules as this point.

The reason you would want to feel pain, is to know the limb is in danger. Our entire understanding of our place in the universe, and I mean that literally, the sensation of our physical presence in a location, is based on sensory input. We know where are limbs are, due to being able to feel them. The touch of fabric in certain ways due to gravity, the tension in the muscles, the feel of air on skin, all tell our brain "Your left arm is HERE". And you need to know that in order to use them effectively. If you've ever tried to use your limbs when they were numb, you will know what I mean. Also, it's disconcerting to not have sensation in your limbs. People with cybernetics, without normal limb sensory input, would likely suffer from phantom limb syndrome, which, from what I've heard, really REALLY sucks.

So yeah, pain is needed, it informs a living being they are in danger, it's a warning system that something is wrong. To not have it in a mechanical limb would basically mean any damage to the limb would be unnoticed, unless you constantly checked the limb with an obsessive compulsive level.

To give another example, there is an episode of House, where there is a girl, with no sense of pain, at all. So, she has to live her life very carefully. Because, she has no way to know if she's been seriously injured by something, or if it's just a minor bump that, at worst, will bruise.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

The reason you would want to feel pain, is to know the limb is in danger. Our entire understanding of our place in the universe, and I mean that literally, the sensation of our physical presence in a location, is based on sensory input. We know where are limbs are, due to being able to feel them. The touch of fabric in certain ways due to gravity, the tension in the muscles, the feel of air on skin, all tell our brain "Your left arm is HERE". And you need to know that in order to use them effectively. If you've ever tried to use your limbs when they were numb, you will know what I mean. Also, it's disconcerting to not have sensation in your limbs. People with cybernetics, without normal limb sensory input, would likely suffer from phantom limb syndrome, which, from what I've heard, really REALLY sucks.

So yeah, pain is needed, it informs a living being they are in danger, it's a warning system that something is wrong. To not have it in a mechanical limb would basically mean any damage to the limb would be unnoticed, unless you constantly checked the limb with an obsessive compulsive level.

To give another example, there is an episode of House, where there is a girl, with no sense of pain, at all. So, she has to live her life very carefully. Because, she has no way to know if she's been seriously injured by something, or if it's just a minor bump that, at worst, will bruise.

I figured there would be sensation and at least some pain, but seeing that damage to the limb would not put the rest of the body in danger (by blood loss for instance) or risk permanent damage to the limb (it might take spare parts, but the arm is a machine and can be repaired or replaced) there is really no need to have a damaged cybernetic limb cause any greater, or lasting levels of pain. Anything beyond a minor jolt to indicate that the limb is damaged would be superfluous if not downright counterproductive. I mean, any pain felt would have to be actually caused by the cybernetic anyway, so why would you design it with the feature to cause crippling pain to the user in case the arm would be heavily damaged? The only reason I can see for that is if it somehow was a necessary sideeffect in order to hame some sensation in the limb at all.

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Again, depends on what the intended attack was trying to cause. Or at least that's my take on it. I would most likely default to criticals, but, seeing as there are talents that allow you to do that more easily, I'd make sure it was more difficult to accomplish than the talents that let you inflict criticals more easily.

Let us say that you're dueling your former padawan who has fallen to the dark side. As you hope to take him alive, you try to sever or damage his cybernetic arm, which would not cause him lasting damage. To me, a called shot to said arm and, if successful, allowing the use of sunder rather than causing wounds or crits seems like a fair option. After all, just hoping for a suitable crit is just as likely to take off his other three healthy limbs and... oh... bad example.

I've already stated my reason why it should be that way. If you disagree, then don't have your cybernetics inflict pain. I can't articulate it any further than I already have.

2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I've already stated my reason why it should be that way. If you disagree, then don't have your cybernetics inflict pain. I can't articulate it any further than I already have.

And the answer was much appreciated. Please excuse me if it seemed like I was trying to win an argument rather than carry on a discussion.

I also think in the case of dueling a padawan is that Lightsaber duels usually are fairly high risk affairs; while it's very easy to disable someone by hitting someone anywhere it's much more difficult to hit someone somewhere. One thing that players and NPC's have to accept is that usually they are not entirely in control of their own characters, characters can and will regularly fail as the combat system assumes that both parties are trying to one up one another, and so that instead of restraining their apprentice the master kills them or cuts three of their limbs off and leaves them to burn to death. XD

That's the good thing with the abstract wounds system; exceeding a wound theshold doesn't mean they are dead but were simply hit in some telling manner that halts them. So lets say in the master and apprentice were dueling and the master wants to not kill the apprentice; we have to assume that both are skilled enough that naither can truly dominate the other; to assume otherwise would rob one another of their narrative power. It's the same reason lightsabers are not sunderable despite them breaking quite regularly, because in testing lightsaber duels broke down into sunder contests, whoever broke the blade of the other would have a huge advantage and rob the defending player of a lot of their agency, thus for the same reason I don't believe automatically cutting a players arm off with generated advantage would be in the best interest in the narrative; otherwise the student could cut the masters arm off in the first exchange and that also seems odd within the setting, literally every Jedi in the movies would be sporting cybernetics were that the case as it creates a situation where the first person to draw their blade would win every time.

However, as the master doesn't want to kill the apprentice that when the padawan exceeds his wound threshold, that crit is the disabling blow. "hit in the shin" or with some unholy twist of fate, the master scores "the end is nigh" on his old student and thus the duel to redeem the student turns into a tragedy. By bypassing the crit system entirely, that potentially raw tragedy that would be delicious to behold for all the characters involved would never come to be. It's better to accept that characters can and will frequently make mistakes or fail to get the desired result, least that is my opinion.

Sundering cybernetics seems like one of those things that should be treated "case by case" on a narrative basis. I mean if sunder was used to destroy sybernetics that would suck and be totally unfair, but on the other hand, losing a 10,000 credit cybernetic arm because " Maimed: One of the target's limbs (selected by the GM) is permanently lost " also seems a bit unfair (although if they have a cybernetic arm, they may have already lost an arm in this way ). I think damaging cybernetics with sunder could be handy in some scenarios (like the one you described about wanting to disable an old Padawan). Other wise, I would say it's up the Gm to determine; if it is fitting (and at least somewhat fair) then sunder cybernetics, if not then damage as normal.

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

And the answer was much appreciated. Please excuse me if it seemed like I was trying to win an argument rather than carry on a discussion.

Well then to continue, it's likely that the companies that make the limbs aren't making them specifically for death machine PC's, but for a huge market in general. And to prevent people from doing stupid things like oh...putting their cyber arm into a wood chipper for the lulz, they make sure it hurts. So they don't suddenly have millions of terminators who feel no pain, and will not stop, until you are dead. As well as to minimize maintenance/insurance costs for replacing the equipment. Also likely to indicate the severity of the damage to the limb. If it only mildly itches, you might ignore it. If it feels like your arm just got impaled (because it did), then you would react appropriately.

43 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Well then to continue, it's likely that the companies that make the limbs aren't making them specifically for death machine PC's, but for a huge market in general. And to prevent people from doing stupid things like oh...putting their cyber arm into a wood chipper for the lulz, they make sure it hurts. So they don't suddenly have millions of terminators who feel no pain, and will not stop, until you are dead. As well as to minimize maintenance/insurance costs for replacing the equipment. Also likely to indicate the severity of the damage to the limb. If it only mildly itches, you might ignore it. If it feels like your arm just got impaled (because it did), then you would react appropriately.

Those are some very good points, but maybe that's something more applied to prostethics that are made look and feel as much as the real thing? As there are examples of people being cybernetically enhanced for combat purposes (Phase Zero Darktroopers springs to mind) one can assume some companies actually built limb's for almost literal death machines.

Come to think of it, this jives somewhat with the three examples I can recall of the top of my head of artificial limbs getting destroyed or damaged in the films; Luke seems to be in at least some pain, Grievous hardly seems to notice and Vader is... sort of hard to tell. He might be in pain, or he might just be exhausted. Interesting.