So Imperials are once again in a similar situation after Wave 5. Oddly enough it was a Wave 5 list that made the cut (RAC & Whisper). Arc dodging High Pilot Skill, Elite Aces just does't get them through anymore.

So if finesse and dial maneuvers/reposistioning is out what is the next possible solution. My guess is Brute Force . But that is the question what is brute force. Well jousting, firepower, and numbers.

So what brute force Imperial lists can we make? I expect high jousting effecency, at least 4 or 5 ships, and TLTs or Firepower 3. Any ideas?

• 5 Scimitar (or 2 scimitar and 2 cutlass) with dumbfire rockets and light weight frame. Just break them.
• 4 TLT Agressors or 5 Agressors with Dorsal Turrets? (better for any that can do soem maneuvers.)

I don't know what would be your brute force list. I think a good indicator of brute force list or not is that one that will always win final salvo.

I've been having a lot of luck with this list. The two /SFs put out a strong PS 9 alpha strike, and Omega Leader helps to finish off anything that survives, plus adds some late game staying power. It's 98 points, so has a decent Initiative bid in the mix.

"Quickdraw" (29)
Crack Shot (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Backdraft" (27)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

1 minute ago, Jarval said:

I've been having a lot of luck with this list. The two /SFs put out a strong PS 9 alpha strike, and Omega Leader helps to finish off anything that survives, plus adds some late game staying power. It's 98 points, so has a decent Initiative bid in the mix.

"Quickdraw" (29)
Crack Shot (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Backdraft" (27)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Still looks like an elite list with high pilot skill and only 3 small ships. You need to remove some of the refinement. Final salvo is what 6-7 dice?

Nah not enough brute force, I think we need something with a final salvo of 10 or greater, and at least 4 ships to absorb some of the damage and not get decimated by inevitable losses.

Welcome to the First Order

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

Still looks like an elite list with high pilot skill and only 3 small ships. You need to remove some of the refinement. Final salvo is what 6-7 dice?

Nah not enough brute force, I think we need something with a final salvo of 10 or greater, and at least 4 ships to absorb some of the damage and not get decimated by inevitable losses.

Depends on what you mean by a "brute force" list. This list jousts and (usually) kills a ship before it gets to fire on the opening turn of combat, at which point they all come back in for another run.

If you're looking at massed firepower, five Scarif Defender TIE Strikers with title and Lightweight Frame is probably not a bad call. It's 15 red dice, 15 green dice (sort of), and 20 hull. Not the most tanky thing, but there's a lot of raw dice being thrown out. That said, I think that kind of massed low PS gunline is something that the other two factions probably do better than the Imperials.

3 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Welcome to the First Order

So 3 Zeta Specialist and 2 Epsilons?

Well that is 5 ships, average firepower with titles is 2.6 which is rounded to 3. Final salvo is 13 firepower. Might be brute force, but I am not sure it is a match for the BBBBZ lists of the Rebels. Any takes?

5 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

So 3 Zeta Specialist and 2 Epsilons?

Well that is 5 ships, average firepower with titles is 2.6 which is rounded to 3. Final salvo is 13 firepower. Might be brute force, but I am not sure it is a match for the BBBBZ lists of the Rebels. Any takes?

Well you've got a point there. I really just mean in terms of thought.

Imperials can no longer build for anything less than survivability and firepower. Now they have to think like the Republic of yore, rather than the Rebellion. High hull or shield vessels are your best bet, but Defenders are somewhat expensive. It may be time to really genuinely consider the Upsilon, TIE/SF, and FO respectively. While you will be fielding less, good flying, no matter the rolls, will keep various vessels in play much longer. But of course, allowing room for error is the meta. I know nothing of the modern tools.

But I do know Imperial lists can't play the way they used to. The TIE Oppressor and SF will be your best bets for small, while the Decimator despite its null agility might actually be able to be run as a naked tank. Failing that, you can't go wrong with a ramming Decimator, simply flying into the enemy.

Very aggressive playstyles are necessary. Flank, block, bump, not necessarily in that order. Judging off what I'm hearing that's key, and with Attani so prevalent, it might be key to find any way possible to induce stress.

Again, I'm unfamiliar with modern tools.

There's something in what you're saying. I've been running a quad bomber list through several waves now, and it's the only Imperial list I have left that I haven't needed to either trash or heavily modify to maintain pace with the meta. They require a degree of finesse to keep alive (crits ruin them), but they play very much on the concept of aggressively removing a big threat quickly, then moving on to another.

Unfortunately, I haven't found an equivalent level of outright threat with spread risk (I'm ok with losing 25% of my list if the trade removes 35-50% of my opponents list) in the Imperial camp. At least, not one I'm willing to invest in massing. I've toyed with the idea of the 5x Strikers, but I really don't think I'm bothered enough to buy two more for that experiment.

Marinealver, I've come up with a variation on the TIE/SF you might be able to use for this.

They work for both Quickdraw and Backdraft, and I think it has a genuine chance. It's all about flying around obstacles and asteroids and such.

Trick shot, Collision Detector, Primed Thrusters, Special Ops Training, Twin Ion Engine MK II.

The idea is to let it keep agility throughout most issues it would have, as the TIE/SF is noooooot a super agile ship. However , Trick Shot augments its ability significantly, allowing it 3 dice in the aux arc where normally it'd just be 2.

Basically, the idea is to make the TIE/SF a fast mover that punches hard when close to obstacles. Never leave them and you'll hardly have a problem, but this also sets a precedent for predictability- so something to draw fire would be very good. I'm still working on that.

Recommend Backdraft for asteroid play, Quickdraw for aggressive play. Will be working on a way to maximize Quickdraw's effectiveness. I GENUINELY believe the First Order units are the key to all of this.

EDIT: Further development, but it isn't cheap. Quickdraw is not clocking in at 37 points but I'm not counting this as a loss in any way. Not with these cards.

Rage, FCS, Prockets, Primed Thrusters, Spec Ops Training, Twin Ion Engine MK II.

Idea is that TIEMKII helps you clear stress that Rage induces, and Prime Thrusters continues to let you perform evasive actions while you do just that. Swapping out PTL with Rage may be worthwhile, but we're looking for a damage output platform- which the SF excels at in theory. FCS allows you to just keep going after a particular target and Prockets allows you to pound out hard damage on at least one target rather than persistent damage.

Not so sure how this will work against high HP ships, but I have little doubt smaller vessels will survive easily. It might be an extremely reliable way to slap Biggs off the board quickly. Investigating further.

53 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Marinealver, I've come up with a variation on the TIE/SF you might be able to use for this.

They work for both Quickdraw and Backdraft, and I think it has a genuine chance. It's all about flying around obstacles and asteroids and such.

Trick shot, Collision Detector, Primed Thrusters, Special Ops Training, Twin Ion Engine MK II.

The idea is to let it keep agility throughout most issues it would have, as the TIE/SF is noooooot a super agile ship. However , Trick Shot augments its ability significantly, allowing it 3 dice in the aux arc where normally it'd just be 2.

Basically, the idea is to make the TIE/SF a fast mover that punches hard when close to obstacles. Never leave them and you'll hardly have a problem, but this also sets a precedent for predictability- so something to draw fire would be very good. I'm still working on that.

Recommend Backdraft for asteroid play, Quickdraw for aggressive play. Will be working on a way to maximize Quickdraw's effectiveness. I GENUINELY believe the First Order units are the key to all of this.

So you can do a version of thisist with 4 Omega Specialists. You take 4 with Collision Detector and Trick Shot. If you get asteroids in the way, you throw a lot of dice.

Just now, Biophysical said:

So you can do a version of thisist with 4 Omega Specialists. You take 4 with Collision Detector and Trick Shot. If you get asteroids in the way, you throw a lot of dice.

Holy crap you could.

Guys why does everybody bag on the SF? This thing is made for PAIN

Star Killer Base:

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Collision Detector (0)
Recon Specialist (3)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Weapons Guidance (2)
Tactical Jammer (1)

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Collision Detector (0)
Inspiring Recruit (1)
Recon Specialist (3)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Weapons Guidance (2)
Kylo Ren's Shuttle (2)

"Epsilon Leader" (19)
Comm Relay (3)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

71% chance of 4 damage on 4 dice. 90+% chance of 4+ on 5 dice. Let their fickle greens betray them....

@Captain Lackwit Proton Rockets are literally not any better than an /SF primary weapon...

6 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Holy crap you could.

Guys why does everybody bag on the SF? This thing is made for PAIN

I think the days of SF hate are mostly over. I've been flying them since November, and liked them, and they're better with Lightweight Frame. People are realizing that now. The basic FCS+LWF combo makes them reasonably tough and do serious damage for the points. They move weird, and their dial looks like crap until you actually play one and get a sense of how it works, but people are doing that now. Add in the fact that they're the best Imperial fighter to take on K-wing bombers, and you've got something real.

13 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

@Captain Lackwit Proton Rockets are literally not any better than an /SF primary weapon...

look man idk they still deal ouches

7 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think the days of SF hate are mostly over. I've been flying them since November, and liked them, and they're better with Lightweight Frame. People are realizing that now. The basic FCS+LWF combo makes them reasonably tough and do serious damage for the points. They move weird, and their dial looks like crap until you actually play one and get a sense of how it works, but people are doing that now. Add in the fact that they're the best Imperial fighter to take on K-wing bombers, and you've got something real.

Hell yes. FIRST ORDER FOREVER.

Just now, Captain Lackwit said:

look man idk they still deal ouches

My point being that you're paying 3 points for a single use 4 die attack at range 1, same as what your primary weapon already does for you every time. Consider paying 1 more point for Cluster Missiles instead which can deal more damage (3 dice twice), especially against low agility and in combination with Rage

1 minute ago, nitrobenz said:

My point being that you're paying 3 points for a single use 4 die attack at range 1, same as what your primary weapon already does for you every time. Consider paying 1 more point for Cluster Missiles instead which can deal more damage (3 dice twice), especially against low agility and in combination with Rage

A solid point. Was looking for a cheap, no target lock necessary option as uh.

Well frankly they're really expensive already.

8 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I think the days of SF hate are mostly over. I've been flying them since November, and liked them, and they're better with Lightweight Frame . People are realizing that now. The basic FCS +LWF combo makes them reasonably tough and do serious damage for the points. They move weird, and their dial looks like crap until you actually play one and get a sense of how it works, but people are doing that now. Add in the fact that they're the best Imperial fighter to take on K-wing bombers, and you've got something real.

Agreed, LWF makes them much more survivable than they starte dout.

On the topic of actual lists with brute force for imperials I would be remiss not to bring up a full swarm as a viable option. In the final salvo count you get 14-16 dice, which is in the highest possible range. (5TIE/sk@15, BBBBZ@14) the big weakness however the the number of ships that scum and rebels have that can fit into a list and have a decent chance of popping multiple TIEs before they do anything

My favorite imp at the moment though is Swarm Leader Quick Draw:

(36) TIE/SF Fighter: •"Quickdraw" (29)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Special Ops Training (0)
•Swarm Leader (3)
Electronic Baffle (1)
Pattern Analyzer (2)

(16) TIE Fighter: •"Youngster" (15)
Rage (1)

(48) 4x TIE Fighter: Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 100/100

I think people bagged on them because they were genuinely poor when they launched. They really needed that LWF upgrade to give them some survivability. I remember flying mine on launch and having Backdraft destroyed by plinking potshots. It didn't feel right on a ship that was designed to be a kind of brawler.
With LWF, however, it's a different animal. It's stapled to it.

What's LWF? Lost here, guys. Not all of us know the acronyms.

1 minute ago, Captain Lackwit said:

What's LWF? Lost here, guys. Not all of us know the acronyms.

Lightweight Frame. It adds a green die if there are more red dice than green,

3 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:

Lightweight Frame. It adds a green die if there are more red dice than green,

Oh, huh. Cool. TIE Striker expansion, right?

Man I wish I'd noticed that in the list building. That's amazing.

EDIT : Well howdy-doo. You could have four Zeta Specialists with Spec-Ops and Lightweight frame. That's 3 PS, ATK, EVA, HUL, SHD. All around 3, except that you have four of them. Absolute max damage potential is like... Sixteen on one target, if they're all in range one of the ship, forward facing. Unlikely but not impossible.

Geez. Low PS is rough, but it's basically a sluggish TIE Defender with this build. Dayum. And four of them? Yikes. It'd be worth running for sure, just to try it.

You can do 5 Sienars with title and mix of 3 point missiles (Prockets, adv homing) and Chimps. In fact, if you pull it off just right, you can equip one with tracers, which would even let you upgrade 2 of the others to clusters. Not only that, in the opening salvo, if you land the tracer, the others get free target locks, granting a free evade from the titles, and if they took focus for the action... That's a lot of modified reds.

I love the First Order ships so much.

Can we get a First Order Phantom?