****... this unit just plain outdoes the reanimate archers in every way.

Blight is, in my opinion, too easy to get rid of. Might write a post detailing exactly how and why.

Anyway, these guys shoot hard with an easy 3 threat formation and rank discipline. Can do a lot of damage, especially if they get the large block and upgrade dice with a champion, will be rediculously damaging. And the archers cant take champion upgrades...

Also, lots tankier, will fight well in melee with champion upgrade, protected... and almost the same price. Wtf?

5 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:

So, they get protected because they habe smaller shields than the spearmen and can move and shoot because a crossbow is way worst at shooting on the move than a bow. I see, it makes much sense

I think the protected is because while they have smaller shields they are always up even when attacking, whereas the spearmen have to lower the shield to attack but when the spearmen HAVE their shield up they have much greater protection. At least that's how I see it...

1 hour ago, AshesFall said:

****... this unit just plain outdoes the reanimate archers in every way.

Blight is, in my opinion, too easy to get rid of. Might write a post detailing exactly how and why.

Anyway, these guys shoot hard with an easy 3 threat formation and rank discipline. Can do a lot of damage, especially if they get the large block and upgrade dice with a champion, will be rediculously damaging. And the archers cant take champion upgrades...

Also, lots tankier, will fight well in melee with champion upgrade, protected... and almost the same price. Wtf?

Short of setting rallies constantly, getting really lucky with surges, or making sure that you hang out close to Hawthorne I don't see how a unit will be getting rid of 2-3 blights a turn for each Archer block that is attacking them. If units are burning inspirations to remove banes then they aren't using inspirations to ready exhausted cards.

Which champion is boosting their ranged damage? Not the Citadel Weapon Master. I guess the Lance Corporal allows them to dial in a hit result which boosts their damage a bit. Greyhaven Channeler doesn't do anything directly for this unit. Uncontrolled Geomancer will potentially boost the damage coming from unit but probably makes more sense to put on a quicker, front line unit.

I don't see these guys as being "lots tankier", the first figure that takes damage each round will take 2 damage to remove but after that they are no more durable than Reanimate Archers. Once the Necromancer and new Waiqar hero drop, the archer blocks will become much more durable as they are regenerating figures and trays.

30 minutes ago, AshesFall said:

****... this unit just plain outdoes the reanimate archers in every way.

Blight is, in my opinion, too easy to get rid of. Might write a post detailing exactly how and why.

Anyway, these guys shoot hard with an easy 3 threat formation and rank discipline. Can do a lot of damage, especially if they get the large block and upgrade dice with a champion, will be rediculously damaging. And the archers cant take champion upgrades...

Also, lots tankier, will fight well in melee with champion upgrade, protected... and almost the same price. Wtf?

Champion upgrade is only on the final block btw. And which one? I mean the reanimate archers can spread the blight around easily and do some great damage. They are also more mobile than the crossbowman with the shift 2.

27 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Short of setting rallies constantly, getting really lucky with surges, or making sure that you hang out close to Hawthorne I don't see how a unit will be getting rid of 2-3 blights a turn for each Archer block that is attacking them.

I honestly wonder if some people mistakenly play Inspiration tokens like a Rally, removing all banes when they should only be removing one. It's the only reason I can think of to explain the offhanded dismissal of multiple Blight tokens.

well, you can stack inspiration tokens too. Typically you cant get them as rapid as blight tokens though

9 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

well, you can stack inspiration tokens too. Typically you cant get them as rapid as blight tokens though

yeah but unless you are able to do it as an additional action you are greatly reducing your utility in which case, blight is hurting you even before you are blighted...

I see crossbow men/women as "turtling" behind their shields after shooting. Justifying the protect 1. Spear men only turtle when they dial up their +1 defenders. I also like that they design game mechanics first, lore second.

For people holding off buying for their fav faction. I say the core is a good investment cause you can play now. When your faction comes out you'll be better at the game and you'll have a back up faction, or a Faction for a buddy to play for casual games and practice. But it is a lot of money.

18 minutes ago, Ywingscum said:

For people holding off buying for their fav faction. I say the core is a good investment cause you can play now. When your faction comes out you'll be better at the game and you'll have a back up faction, or a Faction for a buddy to play for casual games and practice. But it is a lot of money.

or just sell the models on ebay...

I took some advice and tried proxying Combat Ingenuity (the surge abilities cost one less surge card). It was a night and day difference. Suddenly dropping 2-3 blight on carrion lancer trays or Ardus (undead mirror match) almost completely shut them down.

I ran just a 2x1 archers with Ingenuity and a 2x1 archers with Fire Runes and Rank Discipline. It seemed really effective.

I still think people are putting a lot more stock in protected than it deserves. Look at this scenario. Unit A is a unit of spearmen with a defense modifier dialed in, Unit B is a unit of crossbowmen.

If an attack deals 1 damage, neither unit takes casualties.

2 damage, each unit takes 1 casualty.

3 damage, Unit A takes 1 casualty, Unit B takes 2.

From there on, extra defense is strictly better than Protected. Don't get me wrong, protected is a GREAT ability, and it benefits from being always on, while a low enough initiative attack can bypass a defense modifier. The fact remains, however, that these guys may be more durable than reanimate archers, but they are definitely not tanky, especially compared to other Daqan units. That defensiveness also appears to be in line with what is emerging as the Daqan playstyle: take hit to face, apply pointy end of weapon.

It is also worth noting that Crossbowmen are cheaper than Reanimate Archers. It's not a lot, but it could mean an extra upgrade. Also (not gameplay per de) having a middle formation of only 3 trays is kind of a kick to the crotch since buying two expansions means you have a totally unused tray. This is a 1 or 3 box expansion purchase.

edit: sorry for the brain fart, meant to say that archers are cheaper than crossbows.

4 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I took some advice and tried proxying Combat Ingenuity (the surge abilities cost one less surge card). It was a night and day difference. Suddenly dropping 2-3 blight on carrion lancer trays or Ardus (undead mirror match) almost completely shut them down.

Without Combat Ingenuity you are usually getting 1 blight, possibly getting 2 if you roll perfectly, but may end up with nothing even you set the surge modifier. With it you are and usually coming away with 2-3 blight, 4 if you are lucky, and will always assign at least one if your dice don't deliver surges (assuming you set the surge modifier).

That's a tremendous difference, especially since blight gets more effective as you stack it up (at least to a point).

10 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

It is also worth noting that Crossbowmen are cheaper than Reanimate Archers. It's not a lot, but it could mean an extra upgrade. Also (not gameplay per de) having a middle formation of only 3 trays is kind of a kick to the crotch since buying two expansions means you have a totally unused tray. This is a 1 or 3 box expansion purchase.

You've got that backwards. In both of the formations with the same number of trays, the Reanimate Archers are cheaper.

Archer 2x1 is 18
Archer 3x2 is 45
Crossbowmen 2x1 is 19
Crossbowmen 3x2 is 48

Only the middle sized formation of Crossbowmen is cheaper than the middle sized formation of Archers (27 vs. 32) but it's a tray smaller. The Archers are still coming out cheaper on a per tray basis.

8 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

You've got that backwards. In both of the formations with the same number of trays, the Reanimate Archers are cheaper.

Archer 2x1 is 18
Archer 3x2 is 45
Crossbowmen 2x1 is 19
Crossbowmen 3x2 is 48

Only the middle sized formation of Crossbowmen is cheaper than the middle sized formation of Archers (27 vs. 32) but it's a tray smaller. The Archers are still coming out cheaper on a per tray basis.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Stupid typos, don't know where my head was...

36 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

Yeah, that's what I meant. Stupid typos, don't know where my head was...

Plus you got Ardus's ability to take upgrades one tier higher so to speak. (I forgot the term for it.)

10 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Plus you got Ardus's ability to take upgrades one tier higher so to speak. (I forgot the term for it.)

True, and under Hawthorne you can have a 2x1 unit of crossbowmen to use re rolls to fish for that mortal wound surge ability. That ends up being a 19 point unit that you really need to kill before they nickel and dime your heroes and siege units to death.

Just goes to show that you can't compare them across the board, each faction brings special tools to the fight.

5 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

True, and under Hawthorne you can have a 2x1 unit of crossbowmen to use re rolls to fish for that mortal wound surge ability. That ends up being a 19 point unit that you really need to kill before they nickel and dime your heroes and siege units to death.

Just goes to show that you can't compare them across the board, each faction brings special tools to the fight.

Except undead archers use their skill at range 1-5. Crossbowmen have to be 1-3. Besides you might as well just keep them for threat 2 and use rank discipline.

8 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

True, and under Hawthorne you can have a 2x1 unit of crossbowmen to use re rolls to fish for that mortal wound surge ability. That ends up being a 19 point unit that you really need to kill before they nickel and dime your heroes and siege units to death.

Just goes to show that you can't compare them across the board, each faction brings special tools to the fight.

Pretty much.

People are hardlocked on the only thing that makes a unit good is how broken it is.

Is it killy? Nah. Terrible unit then. Cost and durability not usually a factor.
Is it killy? Yes. Is it durable? Not really. Its terrible then. Dont care if its dirt cheap.
Is it killy? Yes. Is it durable? Yes. How expensive is it? about 1/3 your list to use it. Terrible then, too expensive.
Is it killy? Yes. Is it durable? Yes. How expensive? Pennies. THIS UNIT IS AWESOME!

**** near everyone does that, whether they are conscience of it or not. Not every unit has to be a powerhouse, theres other roles or tactics you can employ.
As i mentioned in another post i like the "sacrificial lamb" strat which usually involves a dirt cheap, relatively easy to kill unit that is deadly enough to draw attention. If you ignore it, it walks all over you, but you cant really take it out without using much more of your list than its worth so you "waste time" to kill it. As a result i tend to use a LOT of units most people never touch and i make them annoying as hell. Piranha walls for 40k Tau come to mind....nobody EVER uses those things except me and i use a 5man squad of them. Theyre a mobile wall and boy do they piss my friends off lol.

Crossbowmen are exactly this to me (not the wall, the sacrificial lamb). Theyre dirt cheap, have a Mortal Strike ability, and Protected gives them juuuust enough durability to make them annoying to remove, but still not difficult. These will be my lambs, if they get ignored they will mortal strike heroes and large units for free, or they will distract the heavy hitters so i can flank'm with my cavalry.

I would have liked it if the shields were bigger so they could use them as a support while shooting but not bad at all.

1 hour ago, Iceeagle85 said:

I would have liked it if the shields were bigger so they could use them as a support while shooting but not bad at all.

I was expecting something more like

2 hours ago, Waywardpaladin said:

I was expecting something more like

Yeah, but a full on pavise is the exact opposite of mobile.

5 hours ago, Waywardpaladin said:

I was expecting something more like

It's still fantasy.

So is it just me or does it look like the shields are intended for them to kneel down, then slot it over their upright leg (that bottom hole). Then use the top hole to fire from.

16 hours ago, flightmaster101 said:

It's still fantasy.

Yeah, the fantasy being that people would be hauling it around and setting it up quickly.

I would like it if the sculpts showed them using their half shields more like a tripod.

9 minutes ago, Waywardpaladin said:

17 hours ago, flightmaster101 said:

It's still fantasy.

Yeah, the fantasy being that people would be hauling it around and setting it up quickly.

Well that took a turn.