Alright, I'll admit it, I didn't read all of the 15 pages of discussion on the Rieekan topic, so maybe this was mentioned already.

I have been thinking about a unique squadron limit for awhile, and actually I didn't first think of it as counter to Rieekan, but from more of a lore standpoint. I love the squadron aspect of the game, those tiny ships are the best. And to me that's the epitome of Star Wars, little tiny ships making a big different on a huge battle.

That being said, I get a little bored when most of the squadrons showing up are unique squadrons. It's a big galaxy, and yet Norra, Wedge, Biggs, Luke, and Jan, plus maybe Gold Squadron all show up to the same battles! That's not to mention Rhymer, Zertik, Darth Vader, Saber, Jendon and Maarek all show up to one as well.

So maybe it would be nice to have a limit on how many Uniques squads you can have in a fleet. They are suppose to be unique after all, and leaders of the much more numerous not-so-famous or not-so-lucky pilots.

My thought would be maybe limit unique squadrons to half your allowed squadron total. I think this would also help Rieekan Ace lists from being quite so dominate, and maybe squadron lists in general that start making crazy synergies.

That's my thought anyways.

I still think making flotillas count as squadrons is the most elegant fix that does all what we want at the same time:

if they count as squadrons, that means they don't count for tabling (just kill the real "ships" and you won)<

It also means that if you use more flotillas, you use less squadrons. Aces included.

And also fixes Most Wanted.

Just their basic points cost, or points costs and upgrades?

A whole bunch of aces in one skirmish does seem wrong thematically. Who was at the battle of Hoth? Rogue squadron, Han (sort of) & Dash Rendar?.

6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Just their basic points cost, or points costs and upgrades?

yeah I've just had that reflection in the other thread. Say you're at 150 squadron points (because total points got increased to 450).

2 flotillas with comms net = 110 squadron points left. Still a decent fighter screen, bring less aces and you can easily field 8 squads.

1 flotilla with BCC = 124 points for squadrons. Decent bomber wing.

It prevents both flotilla spam and squadron "abuse" (I don't like that word here, it's not really an abuse)

But since flotilla were made to buff squadron play, I think it's safe to include the upgrades cost as well. Then again, my suggestion implies they increase the total points to 450. At 400, I can see this become a pretty big nerf to squadron builds.

32 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

I still think making flotillas count as squadrons is the most elegant fix that does all what we want at the same time:

if they count as squadrons, that means they don't count for tabling (just kill the real "ships" and you won)<

It also means that if you use more flotillas, you use less squadrons. Aces included.

And also fixes Most Wanted.

I wasn't on board for any of the flotilla changes at first, but I think I'm switching stances at this point.

Frankly the overabundance of named characters is an irritation.

"Oh wow, a big *** battle with 5 of the key members of Rogue Squadron, Han Solo, Admiral Akbar and Leia Organa strange we never read about it anywhere... ever.... as a matter of fact, with that many named characters you'd almost assume this scene should've been in a movie..."



I agree there should be a limit to named aces and upgrades, I don't know how they'd do it, but it kills immersion when you're supposed to be playing some nothing nameless conflict, and all the big names are there....

Wedge, Tycho, Biggs, Luke, Corran all should not be allowed on the field more than 2 at a time without having to switch out for "rogue squadron" (which should have better stats if they did).

I think making flotillas count towards squadron total would encourage either the cautious usage of flotillas, aces, or squadrons in general... all of which I'm okay with.

::TILT::

I'm still kinda surprised Biggs is a named squadron to begin with. Being a meat shield for Luke at Yavin is a) not really grounds for being an ace & b) how does that translate to a whole squadron?

16 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I wasn't on board for any of the flotilla changes at first, but I think I'm switching stances at this point.

Frankly the overabundance of named characters is an irritation.

"Oh wow, a big *** battle with 5 of the key members of Rogue Squadron, Han Solo, Admiral Akbar and Leia Organa strange we never read about it anywhere... ever.... as a matter of fact, with that many named characters you'd almost assume this scene should've been in a movie..."



I agree there should be a limit to named aces and upgrades, I don't know how they'd do it, but it kills immersion when you're supposed to be playing some nothing nameless conflict, and all the big names are there....

Wedge, Tycho, Biggs, Luke, Corran all should not be allowed on the field more than 2 at a time without having to switch out for "rogue squadron" (which should have better stats if they did).

I think making flotillas count towards squadron total would encourage either the cautious usage of flotillas, aces, or squadrons in general... all of which I'm okay with.

::TILT::

Its a slippery slope though, potentially.

If that is the reasoning, why not limit everything like that? How many times can you use Yavaris , how many times can you be responsible for the destruction of Demolisher , why is a high-class Admiral like Ackbar or Mon Mothma present at every battle?

Thematic considerations are either made, or they are not.

If its a Game Balance issue, then present it as a Game Balance issue, not as a thematic issue, because on that front, there are bigger questions to ask first.

Instead of turning the whole game on its head, why not errata Rieekan? Why change everything else around Rieekan if he's the real problem?

1 hour ago, Sybreed said:

I still think making flotillas count as squadrons is the most elegant fix that does all what we want at the same time:

if they count as squadrons, that means they don't count for tabling (just kill the real "ships" and you won)<

It also means that if you use more flotillas, you use less squadrons. Aces included.

And also fixes Most Wanted.

Does nothing to balance the high activation fleets with 2-3 transports, a pittance squadron screen, and 3xMC30 (or equivalent Imp list).

Imperial Assault activation passing does more good. Though I do like not counting flotillas for purposes of tabling and think that helps.

13 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Its a slippery slope though, potentially.

If that is the reasoning, why not limit everything like that? How many times can you use Yavaris , how many times can you be responsible for the destruction of Demolisher , why is a high-class Admiral like Ackbar or Mon Mothma present at every battle?

Thematic considerations are either made, or they are not.

If its a Game Balance issue, then present it as a Game Balance issue, not as a thematic issue, because on that front, there are bigger questions to ask first.

They don't clearly define what "destroyed" is in Armada, thematically speaking. What CC tells us is that a ship destroyed in one conflict is still considered usable, only it returns to use scarred, unless it's repaired, at which it returns to normal working status. So what does destroyed really mean in terms of Armada? Is destroyed just disabled? Is destroyed only partially? I'm presuming on the "scarred" system it's one of the former and that the ship is not permanently vaporized. If that's the case, you could put holes in the Demolisher indefinitely as long as the empire was smart enough to fix it, why shouldn't it come back?

As for the presence of notable titled ships and high level characters, especially those like Akbar and Mothma, who's rise to such positions and career while holding them is vague enough to encompass hundreds of skirmishes....


It Irks me is all.

I'm sure there were plenty of confrontations Luke and the guys had that never made the books.... but when every squadron battle is nammed characters, you start to wonder how the heck vader made it to RotJ when he's been shot down in squad combat like 50x same for Luke wedge biggs and every other face....


Where are the nameless peeps who get vaporized never to return?

Those poor faceless bastards they strapped into Tie fighters with no shields, no life support, no missiles, just lasers and ion engines, why do we never see them? The empire is more then just howlrunner and Ryhmer and Jendon....


I see your point, but it doesn't make killing the same 8 people over and over and over again any less... meh

"Oh hey... there's luke and the rest of rogue squadron... again... killing Vader.... again... The escape pod company must have more money then the galactic empire at this point..."

1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

"Oh hey... there's luke and the rest of rogue squadron... again... killing Vader.... again... The escape pod company must have more money then the galactic empire at this point..."

Still feels like getting worked up over "nothing".

I mean, I know your feeling, and I understand it... Even to the point that my own personal fleet is on the board, individually painted and named, with all of the rules "Counts-as"ing as my own named designs. (And eventually a custom-printed Admiral Card, with Garm's rules)

And you know what that does?

Absolutely nothing but make me feel better.

I suggest you do that in your head while playing, even with the opponents. It will maintain your sanity for longer, because that aspect of the game isn't going to change.

1 hour ago, ISD Avenger said:

A whole bunch of aces in one skirmish does seem wrong thematically. Who was at the battle of Hoth? Rogue squadron, Han (sort of) & Dash Rendar?.

The battle for the first Death Star was pretty loaded.

Luke, Wedge, Biggs, Gold Squadron, Dutch, Han vs. Vader and Black Squadron.

18 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Still feels like getting worked up over "nothing".

I mean, I know your feeling, and I understand it... Even to the point that my own personal fleet is on the board, individually painted and named, with all of the rules "Counts-as"ing as my own named designs. (And eventually a custom-printed Admiral Card, with Garm's rules)

And you know what that does?

Absolutely nothing but make me feel better.

I suggest you do that in your head while playing, even with the opponents. It will maintain your sanity for longer, because that aspect of the game isn't going to change.

*FFG machine operator staring at a pile of generic unpainted armada squads, eyes glossed over*

Why.... why do they make us print them... we've made million of them.... and they just sit in plano boxes... never to be used....

lol

I hate what squadron play has become, thank christ for Sloane, may be my only hope for sanity in this game at the moment.

3 minutes ago, Alzer said:

The battle for the first Death Star was pretty loaded.

Luke, Wedge, Biggs, Gold Squadron, Dutch, Han vs. Vader and Black Squadron.

And no ships!

That entire battle consisted entirely of the Squadron Phase.

I've never played with an Unpainted Squadron.

But I don't paint just aces.

2 minutes ago, Alzer said:

The battle for the first Death Star was pretty loaded.

Luke, Wedge, Biggs, Gold Squadron, Dutch, Han vs. Vader and Black Squadron.

The battle for the death star was also in a movie.... there were enough named faces that it was an important story to tell....

As long as its more than a 19pt limit and I can afford Wedge..... all I need

if you believe the problem is Rieekan, why address things that are explicitly not Rieekan? The Rebels have hands down better generic fighters than imperials, an ace limit would be quite detrimental to their already struggling performance.

Just now, Ginkapo said:

As long as its more than a 19pt limit and I can afford Wedge..... all I need

I don't even think it should be a point limit.... 1 named character per 80 points spent, including the commander. Or 5 maximum to a list.

*Rambles*

1 minute ago, Darthain said:

if you believe the problem is Rieekan, why address things that are explicitly not Rieekan? The Rebels have hands down better generic fighters than imperials, an ace limit would be quite detrimental to their already struggling performance.

I personally don't think the problem is Rieekan, it's what the various parts gain when combined with each other under him. Flotillas boost aces and fleets, aces deal devastating combos, fleets still deal punishing levels of damage, Rieekan just makes everything a little better by keeping them around a little longer.... I don't think Rieekan is the issue there... I think it's the squadrons, more specifically aces...and I'm beginning to see where flotillas add enough boost to make them unbalanced

*continued rambles*

lol

11 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I've never played with an Unpainted Squadron.

But I don't paint just aces.

I just started painting mine, they look like crap cause I have the hands of a detoxing drunkard....

Painted all my ties before realizing I never use them, only to hear the sloane announcement like a week later and rejoice lol

16 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I don't even think it should be a point limit.... 1 named character per 80 points spent, including the commander. Or 5 maximum to a list.

*Rambles*

Stop nerfing Sloan's ability before she even comes out, haha

4 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I personally don't think the problem is Rieekan, it's what the various parts gain when combined with each other under him. Flotillas boost aces and fleets, aces deal devastating combos, fleets still deal punishing levels of damage, Rieekan just makes everything a little better by keeping them around a little longer.... I don't think Rieekan is the issue there... I think it's the squadrons, more specifically aces...and I'm beginning to see where flotillas add enough boost to make them unbalanced

*continued rambles*

lol

You had started so well, you get a like.

Its the chain of synergies. IMO, theres no single point in the chain that, on its own, is broken. But the whole is greater then the sum of its parts. Rieekan is simply a lever that makes sense to adjust, but hes not the only one that could be, or even necessarily the best one. I think given the complexity of balance changes, once an issue has been determined to exist it makes sense to look at all ideas. Flotillas/Relay/Squadron values/anti-squadron tech/Rieekan/Yavaris are all, imo, levers that a viable argument could be made for in terms of tweaking. Again, nothing here is broken on its face.

I would also urge a hold on any errata solutions until we at least get more information on wave 6. As has been stated before, there are several things there that may effect the faction/squadron/flotilla balance going forward. But its hard to really speculate what kind of impact we are talking about until we see the spoilers and the point costs for the chasis.

Just now, geek19 said:

Stop nerfing Sloan's ability before she even comes out, haha

Just take more ties and jumpmasters.... you don't need those silly named people

Give those poor buggers bolted into tie fighters a chance!