43 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

I'd be interested to be proven wrong and learn his true role in my favorite minis game. Any links?

Podcasts and interviews. Jm5k wasn't his project. And the people who play-tested it are known. Also not him.

Go ahead and nerf mind link, jumpmasters, and sabine.

But please don't revert the x7 and Palp nerfs. Personally I feel they were very fair. Plus as someone who mainly runs jousting lists imps are often the worst matchup since so many of their ships are some combination of high agility, high health, token stacking, or auto thrusters.

3 hours ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

How much of that is due to players' list choices though? I'm not saying I know; I am actually asking if anyone has the data to build a reasonable answer.

If 30% of players in an event bring 2+ x7s, then one must assume that there are strong players among them that will make the ships sing.

If the folliwing event has only a 5% rate, then you will see their dominance fall off a cliff unless for some reason a big chunk of top players take them.

Netlisting happens.

Ive been seing that kind of argument since the FAQ has been released. Do you really think that if there was any kind of competitive options the top players wouldnt have found out?? We're talking about the best players here (World). They dont just netlist without any testing.

I called what would happen with the faction right after the first post-nerf Open. Absolutely ALL results since then proved i was right yet we still have people finding all kind of abstract (to not say absurb) arguments to pretent otherwise.

6 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

Plus as someone who mainly runs jousting lists imps are often the worst matchup

Until you try jousting with Fenn... :-)

16 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

Go ahead and nerf mind link, jumpmasters, and sabine.

But please don't revert the x7 and Palp nerfs. Personally I feel they were very fair. Plus as someone who mainly runs jousting lists imps are often the worst matchup since so many of their ships are some combination of high agility, high health, token stacking, or auto thrusters.

The nerfs put the power level of x7 and Palp below the line, the same line set by jumpmasters, mindlink, lancers, protectorate fighters, vcx-100, and k-wings with sabine ... oh and Quad-TLTs … that is a lot of stuff to work trough with nerfs before you have reduce the whole power curve.

And some of the stuff is especially hard as mindlink for example as little design space for changes when you do not want to make it obsolete either. Before the Manaroo and Palp nerfs we had some of the most healthy metas in the history of X-Wing, kind of ironic, isn't it? ;-)

edit: And btw, I am still surprised that the X7 were hit so hard, I really would have thought that they should have been fine, just not wanting to have Palpatine anymore and going for a different 3rd ship or just going with tripple defenders instead. No idea what killed them. They actually might be still within the power curve, but just not valid because of the current meta pushing them out. That is another thing to consider. Rebels for example did not get much buffs at all, but their lists started to work again once the alpha strike jumpmasters were out.

6 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

The nerfs put the power level of x7 and Palp below the line, the same line set by jumpmasters, mindlink, lancers, protectorate fighters, vcx-100, and k-wings with sabine ... oh and Quad-TLTs … that is a lot of stuff to work trough with nerfs before you have reduce the whole power curve.

And some of the stuff is especially hard as mindlink for example as little design space for changes when you do not want to make it obsolete either. Before the Manaroo and Palp nerfs we had some of the most healthy metas in the history of X-Wing, kind of ironic, isn't it? ;-)

The nerf actually helped Scums to get even more dominant. And yes, you are 100% correct about k-wings and VCX-100. 2 other broken ships. Just compare a Jumpmaster, a Shadowcaster or a VCX to a Decimator (even with Kylo)... not on the same lvl at all. How about we compare the Palpmobile (Lambda) to the Jabbamobile (YV)? k-wing vs Punisher ... :-)

2 hours ago, Stevey86 said:

Amazes me how many people on this forum seem to think you have to pick a faction and stick to it.

This isn't football.

Maybe old habits from GW games. As a former WhB player, that was my first reflex : choose a faction and build a squadron. I discovered the pleasure of switching sides only becausev bought some Imperials to play HotAC ^^

2 hours ago, Stevey86 said:

Amazes me how many people on this forum seem to think you have to pick a faction and stick to it.

This isn't football.

A lot of this is based on preferences, I really prefer to fly Imperial Aces lists, so I consider myself an imperial player, even when I have played since October nothing but scum … admittedly I have stopped playing all together 5 months ago when the Palp/Manaroo nerf went live. ;-)

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

Well, you could remove the stress aggregation to actually make the free action a valid choice. ;-)

Or you could say "I don't like this card. Replace it with something completely different.". The stress passing is the downside to mindlink. Honestly; that's not a nerf. It's a total re-design.

1 hour ago, markcsoul said:

Go ahead and nerf mind link, jumpmasters, and sabine.

But please don't revert the x7 and Palp nerfs. Personally I feel they were very fair. Plus as someone who mainly runs jousting lists imps are often the worst matchup since so many of their ships are some combination of high agility, high health, token stacking, or auto thrusters.

I doesn´t matter how you personally feel, just look at the stats. Emperor was nerfed to death, even though he wasn´t dominating the games before the errata.

14 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

I doesn´t matter how you personally feel, just look at the stats. Emperor was nerfed to death, even though he wasn´t dominating the games before the errata.

Emperor was in the top 16 at worlds. Doesn't sound "nerfed to death" to me

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Emperor was in the top 16 at worlds. Doesn't sound "nerfed to death" to me

Yeah, one RAC. Out of 16, that´s pretty dead. And it basically killed Lambda too.

4 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

Yeah, one RAC. Out of 16, that´s pretty dead. And it basically killed Lambda too.

How many palps were BROUGHT to worlds? And 1/16 is better than a lot of cards got. If it was truly dead, it wouldn't have made it to the top 16 at all.

3 hours ago, Kdubb said:

But why are they not competitive? Is it because they are suddenly bad, or is it because with the existence of mindlink and jumpmasters in their current form, they are good ships that are simply the worse option compared to the atrociously efficient scum ones?

I'm gonna go with the latter.

I actually don't think these are really all that different at this point -- at least in terms of the Imperial's high agility, low health aces. I mean, the meta can often be what make ships good or bad and then it shifts again but sometimes enough new things are introduced that it becomes more of a permanent state and not just a meta one.

I actually think there is a case to be made that we've probably reached that point of no return for low health high agility ships with the list of things like of Sabine, bombs, the K-Wing, stress mechanics (specifically Asajj ,but not limited to, -- Rigged Cargo Chute wrecked my day twice this weekend), very strong munitions platforms (with wider arcs), and big and agile blocking ships (like the Jumpmaster).

There's enough tools to deal with them where there is a saturation and I think they've actually gotten objectively worse. Heck, there's even some things like Space Tug Tractor Beam that aren't heavy in the meta but would be available for people to reach for if those aces ever came back.

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

People have. Still Imperial lists under preform. Do you really think you are the only one to think about this? That other players haven't spent time and energy trying to find Imperial lists that can preform in this current meta? Three of my closest friends (also some of the best players I know) have been knocking their heads against a wall trying to get good Imperial lists together. The do pretty good at the local scene, but not well enough yet to indicate they can go higher. And people went to Worlds with Imperial lists. They tried. But still nothing beyond the top 16. That's not a "poor baby, your toy broke" problem. That's a lack options for Imps in the current meta.

I agree with your post but I want to add one thing...I've said this so many times, I'm actually getting tired of it at this point, but it's not just lack of options in the current meta, it's lack of options period. Imperials do not have the access as many upgrade cards as Rebels and Scum do.

If we look at unique upgrade cards per faction and upgrade slots, Imperials currently have roughly half as many unique upgrades and are short on 3-4 slots (depending on which faction and whether you count small base turrets).

We're seeing both turrets and upgrade slot combinations as a key in the last two worlds. Heck, the only Imperial to make the top 16 was a Decimator, the only PWT the Imperials have.

9 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

How many palps were BROUGHT to worlds? And 1/16 is better than a lot of cards got. If it was truly dead, it wouldn't have made it to the top 16 at all.

Well some pretty experienced pilots that have a lot of top finishes in bigger tourneys (regionals and above) pre-palp nerf brought him but it didn't go well for them at all. It wasn't just the one, but yes, it's somewhat ironic that the one Imperial list to make Top 16 actually did have Palp!

4 hours ago, Kdubb said:

just want to note that Imperials showing overall was very low, so it makes sense that only 1 player made the cut based on how few imperial players there were to start with. [...] People talk about them being bad, therefore few players bring them, making it tough for them to make the cut due to lack of numbers. [...] Compare that to the Jumpmaster and Mindlink showing, which seems to have composed nearly half of the lists, and it makes sense they would fill top tables. [...] Players saw the power of scum, and outside of diehard Imperial players, players went in that direction. The issue isn't the Palp and x7 nerf- the issue is the lack of a mindlink and Jumpmaster nerf.

Exactly.

Palp is fine. I wouldn't take Lambda just for him anymore (then again, I never did - don't like ships that move around the map like a lame cow no matter who's on board). That said I've tried putting him on RAC (with Kylo) and won several local tournaments with him. He's still totally worth his 8 points and 2 crew slots. On Deci he won't do much for you defensively, so the choice how to use him is pretty simple - if your ace of choice is in danger, you save him for defence. If not, use him offensively to kill things faster. You can usually tell which of your ships is gonna need more help with that. You're only in trouble if your ace gets in a crossfire but a) you can still just use palp on the first strong attack coming your way and if you roll well, you just don't use ace's evade and save it for later and b) if you're dumb enough to get caught in a crossfire you deserve everything coming your way :P.

2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

The nerfs put the power level of x7 and Palp below the line, the same line set by jumpmasters, mindlink, lancers, protectorate fighters, vcx-100, and k-wings with sabine ... oh and Quad-TLTs … that is a lot of stuff to work trough with nerfs before you have reduce the whole power curve.

And some of the stuff is especially hard as mindlink for example as little design space for changes when you do not want to make it obsolete either. Before the Manaroo and Palp nerfs we had some of the most healthy metas in the history of X-Wing, kind of ironic, isn't it? ;-)

What about "Parattani or go home" was so healthy?

There was exactly one meta defining list before the FAQ. Now there is more than one. Seems like it moved in the right direction. Imps just need some new tools, rather than relying on the crutches of Olde.

9 minutes ago, Sekac said:

What about "Parattani or go home" was so healthy?

There was exactly one meta defining list before the FAQ. Now there is more than one. Seems like it moved in the right direction. Imps just need some new tools, rather than relying on the crutches of Olde.

Yeah - which is kinda the point of this whole thread.

7 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Yeah - which is kinda the point of this whole thread.

Yes, I understand that. Your point?

Just now, Sekac said:

Yes, I understand that. Your point?

The "old crutches" have been nerfed - which has virtually removed the Imps from the competitive realm. Imps and Scum were a thing pre-nerf. Now it's Rebel and Scum.
Just failing to see how that's the right direction, I guess.

Because it wasn't imperials before either. Nor was it rebels. It wasn't even scum. It was one list.

There was Parattani and then a huge gap. Then other stuff. Now it's more diverse and that's better than one list.

6 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Because it wasn't imperials before either. Nor was it rebels. It wasn't even scum. It was one list.

There was Parattani and then a huge gap. Then other stuff. Now it's more diverse and that's better than one list.

I thought Dengaroo won worlds during this time? Is that the list you're referring to or are you referring to same list that still reigns en mass today: Attani?

1 minute ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

I thought Dengaroo won worlds during this time? Is that the list you're referring to or are you referring to same list that still reigns en mass today: Attani?

Dengaroo won worlds, but good pushed out by Parattani (Fenn w/ Attani, title, AT; Asajj w/ Attani, Latts; Manaroo w/ Attani). That EXACT list won 5 of 8 system opens, and the nerfs went into effect before the 7th and 8th or it probably would've won those too. It was THE list. Imperials couldn't beat it. Neither could rebels, and neither could other scum. You had that list, or you went home.

And Attani isn't a list. It's a mechanic. Just like if someone asks what's in your list and you answer Push the Limit.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

What about "Parattani or go home" was so healthy?

There was exactly one meta defining list before the FAQ. Now there is more than one. Seems like it moved in the right direction. Imps just need some new tools, rather than relying on the crutches of Olde.

I believe SEA is referring to the time period between the Deadeye nerf and Parattanni's discovery, where the meta was rather open.