For those of us who never played, 40k do tell what is so awful about that community..
But to the point that Imperials aren't trying new lists, we are certainly trying new ideas..
So old Palp and X7s were the real competative strengh of the Empire huh?
1 hour ago, SOTL said:
Thanks for posting the link. It's depressing.
....and it strengthens my theory.
1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:I did not say easy list , quite strong winning or making at least the cut in a few regionals and nationals.
Range management with PS5 can be tricky.
edit: And range management is essential in that list with Palob AND Guri as you need to steal that focus token to make the best out of that sensor jammer.
Neither did I
I've always believed range management is essential in any list.
43 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:Thanks for posting the link. It's depressing.
....and it strengthens my theory.
Don't forget the obligatory pinch of salt with that data, it only covers Day's lists, can't see the Day 1's on List Juggler yet (unless someone else can...). Quickly going through those stats, Defenders featured in more Imperial lists than any other type of ship. But there still weren't that many Imperial Lists to begin with. People clearly chose to fly other lists, because the Defender isn't competitive or because they don't think its competitive enough for them?
And the list that actually WON worlds...is 6th in the Archetypes...
Edited by boomaster38 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:....and it strengthens my theory.
Then you should be especially careful, confirmation bias is a real issue when looking at data. ;-)
The HWK-290, T-70 X-Wing and Arc-170 all have an higher success rate than the JM5k, roughly equal or even better than the lancer.
12 minutes ago, boomaster said:And the list that actually WON worlds...is 6th in the Archetypes...
If you turn off the 'More popular = more magic' that gets fixed.
4 minutes ago, boomaster said:Don't forget the obligatory pinch of salt with that data, it only covers Day's lists, can't see the Day 1's on List Juggler yet (unless someone else can...). Quickly going through those stats, Defenders featured in more Imperial lists than any other type of ship. But there still weren't that many Imperial Lists to begin with. People clearly chose to fly other lists, because the Defender isn't competitive or because they don't think its competitive enough for them?
And the list that actually WON worlds...is 6th in the Archetypes...
Agreed it is just a sampling of data; it would be great to see the entire World's squads breakdowns weighted by how high the list went in the tournament. And true the winning lits was 6th, but it's components were found in items 1 and 2 as well (to remain nameless, haha).
This. I cannot speak for players at Worlds, players in recent System Opens or any other players really, but around here, we have guys who own and fly everything, but have a heart in a certain faction. Our group really boils down to 11 Rebels, 3 Scum and 5 Imperial players as far as where our inner bent is. I for one have tried and tried to get an Imperial list to shine using any crazy combo I can. I'm not a world-beater, but I'm no novice either; I play many variants, practice once that have synergy and work, and push myself to be the best I can. I still fly Imps on casual beer nights, enjoy Rebels in casual and some pressure games, but when it's competitive, I have found my Scum lists (FennBoats being the smoothest killer squad for me) not only have a good chance in every game, but are more relaxing, resilient, and ultimately win far more times than not....I think I've lost three or four times in countless games; those losses never being a blowout and I can look back and see the point it failed, it's never an uphill battle.
I cannot find an Imperial squad post-nerf that comes close.
Seems I'm not alone.
- Quickdraw - A Score To Settle, Fire Control System, Lightweight Frame, Special Ops Training
- Backdraft - Crack Shot, Fire Control System, Primed Thrusters, Lightweight Frame, Special Ops Training
- Colonel Vessery - Adaptability, TIE/x7, Twin Ion Engine MkII
That's good. ASTS really makes the list IMHO, the points you save there over something like Expertise are what pays for Vessery to join the fun and it arguably even works better than Expertise anyway as it doesn't shut down when you sloop.
That's what I played to 5-1, comfortably beating Rauboats and Triple Jumps on the way.
Edited by SOTL13 minutes ago, SOTL said:
- Quickdraw - A Score To Settle, Fire Control System, Lightweight Frame, Special Ops Training
- Backdraft - Crack Shot, Fire Control System, Primed Thrusters, Lightweight Frame, Special Ops Training
- Colonel Vessery - Adaptability, TIE/x7, Twin Ion Engine MkII
That's good. ASTS really makes the list IMHO, the points you save there over something like Expertise are what pays for Vessery to join the fun and it arguably even works better than Expertise anyway as it doesn't shut down when you sloop.
That's what I played to 5-1, comfortably beating Rauboats and Triple Jumps on the way.
I've been running that Quickdraw build lately. It's cheap and still very punchy. On top of that, ASTS makes QD's return shot that much nastier. Some people might accept her bonus shot, but not when it's got likely ceots behind it.
22 minutes ago, SOTL said:
- Quickdraw - A Score To Settle, Fire Control System, Lightweight Frame, Special Ops Training
- Backdraft - Crack Shot, Fire Control System, Primed Thrusters, Lightweight Frame, Special Ops Training
- Colonel Vessery - Adaptability, TIE/x7, Twin Ion Engine MkII
That's good.
Nice, I'll have to give that a go. I'm still waiting to grab a second SF. They've been out of stock at all my FLGS for ages.
I've found that pretty much no one shoots at Quickdraw first. In closer games he typically ends up being the last ship on the board, which I'm OK with.
The other day I threw him into R1 of both Rey and Norra, and my opponent chose to shoot at my Upsilon at R3 instead
Just now, CRCL said:Nice, I'll have to give that a go. I'm still waiting to grab a second SF. They've been out of stock at all my FLGS for ages.
I've found that pretty much no one shoots at Quickdraw first. In closer games he typically ends up being the last ship on the board, which I'm OK with.
The other day I threw him into R1 of both Rey and Norra, and my opponent chose to shoot at my Upsilon at R3 instead
Different meta's treat QD differently, some leave him to last others try to burn him down ASAP to get rid of his shields at once rather than chip them away in endgame. ASTS feeds into that targeting dilemma - ignore QD and he gets free crits, fire at him first and he gives you free crits.
Really you just have to protect Backdraft early, thats your main objective, QD and Vessery are both quite happy to absorb a shot or two.
3 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:No, I'm saying that Imperial lists right now do not have as many guarantees as the safer (Mindlink for example) options do, which means fewer people are willing to take them to high-stakes tournaments. To my mind, that's the more logical conclusion than 'Imperials are dead competitively', which is reminiscent of 'sky falling' absurdity.
Nice of you to be just as insulting as you accuse me of being. And the idea that X-Wing is even close to the absolute trainwreck that is current 40k is laughable
If people don't take imperials to high stake tournaments, imperials are dead competitively. Heck, that's pretty much the very definition of what "dead competitively" means!
That doesn't mean that sky is falling but it does mean imperials are roughly in the same spot rebels were a year ago. And just like then, changes to the game's balance are definitely needed.
5 minutes ago, Lightrock said:If people don't take imperials to high stake tournaments, imperials are dead competitively. Heck, that's pretty much the very definition of what "dead competitively" means!
That doesn't mean that sky is falling but it does mean imperials are roughly in the same spot rebels were a year ago. And just like then, changes to the game's balance are definitely needed.
You're incorrectly conflating two things:
- Access to competitive builds (that are viable against multiple, other meta lists)
- Frequency of a faction at competitive events
1 minute ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:You're incorrectly conflating two things:
- Access to competitive builds (that are viable against multiple, other meta lists)
- Frequency of a faction at competitive events
Frequency is a tricky factor. Last time I checked, top 16 of worlds had 2 Rebel lists, and they were both in the top 4, one making it to top two. That says to me that those lists were strong enough to handle the opposition despite their lower numbers. There is similar data for Rebels in the System Opens as well. Even if Rebels are being taken as much as Scum, they still make top tables. Imps aren't doing that.
Just now, SabineKey said:Frequency is a tricky factor. Last time I checked, top 16 of worlds had 2 Rebel lists, and they were both in the top 4, one making it to top two. That says to me that those lists were strong enough to handle the opposition despite their lower numbers. There is similar data for Rebels in the System Opens as well. Even if Rebels are being taken as much as Scum, they still make top tables. Imps aren't doing that.
Agreed. @Lightrock and perhaps you, too, are attempting to draw causality where I believe there is some, but very little .
If Imps had the tools necessary to make Top-4 I think the best players would be taking them in higher numbers, which may correlate to higher appearances in the cut. Unfortunately, Imps do not have those tools, currently.
8 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:You're incorrectly conflating two things:
- Access to competitive builds (that are viable against multiple, other meta lists)
- Frequency of a faction at competitive events
The Venn diagram of those two things has a HUGE overlap area.
Just now, SOTL said:The Venn diagram of those two things has a HUGE overlap area.
Maybe I should have said, "Imperials aren't being taken to events because they don't have competitive builds"
13 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:You're incorrectly conflating two things:
- Access to competitive builds (that are viable against multiple, other meta lists)
- Frequency of a faction at competitive events
And why do you think I'm incorrect?
I see a very strong 2-way self-reinforcing correlation between the things you mention:
- people try to play a faction that has limited (or non-existent) access to competitive options and fail, hence they don't bring it to major events because they don't believe they will succeed with it,
- there are few people playing the faction in question and most of them are inexperienced or casual players who don't care about competitiveness or just don't know better, hence the faction doesn't succeed and is not considered competitive.
You seem to be focused entirely on the second point while completely ignoring the first one. Which is a massive error in reasoning because it's the very cause of the problem. Top players are really, really good. They have a lot of experience and spend a lot of time on trying to find the next breakthrough build that will surprise their opponents and get them the win. They won't just give up on a good list because of the faction's reputation. If they're not flying imperials it's because imperials aren't good, not because of some irrational superstition or bias.
Edited by Lightrock"Imperials aren't being taken to events because their builds are less competitive" and we can shake. Deal?
Just now, Lightrock said:And why do you think I'm incorrect?
I see a very strong 2-way self-reinforcing correlation between the things you mention:
- people try to play a faction that has limited (or non-existent) access to competitive and fail, hence they don't bring it to major events because they don't believe they will succeed with it,
- there are few people playing the faction in question and most of them are inexperienced or casual players who don't care about competitiveness or just don't know better, hence the faction doesn't succeed and is not considered competitive.
You seem to be focused entirely on the second point while completely ignoring the first one. Which is a massive error in reasoning because it's the very cause of the problem. Top players are really, really good. They have a lot of experience and spend a lot of time on trying to find the next breakthrough build that will surprise their opponents and get them the win. They won't just give up on a good list because of the faction's reputation. If they're not flying imperials it's because imperials aren't good, not because of some irrational superstition or bias .
Finally, what I am poorly attempting to convey - and we agree on it.
2 minutes ago, SOTL said:"Imperials aren't being taken to events because their builds are less competitive" and we can shake. Deal?
