Just now, LordBlades said:

When you can ignore the stress, Zuckuss was great, but mainly 2 builds did that: Dengaroo and the Party Bus. Now Dengaroo was an issue, but the build was killed by the Manaroo change already. The Party Bus was, IMO at least, a fun but not meta-defining build. Why kill that?

Necessary sacrifice, much like how the Deadeye change caught a few builds for ships that were mostly innocent of the wolfpack kind of abuse. There were ways to make Dengaroo-style Zuckuss abuse work without Manaroo and with only a minor loss of potency, and in fact I was starting to see them show up locally even before the nerf. Stopping it all cold was the only way to make sure Zuckuss wouldn't be a sleeping time bomb that would have to dealt with again in future.

26 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Team BRs is my favorite slayer mode

[SCREECHING INTENSIFIES]

2 hours ago, LordBlades said:

I was mainly referring to the meta impact of Zuckuss. I feel that was the main drive behind the great nerfing.

When you can't ignore the stress, Zuckuss was not a great card, and seldom seen.

When you can ignore the stress, Zuckuss was great, but mainly 2 builds did that: Dengaroo and the Party Bus. Now Dengaroo was an issue, but the build was killed by the Manaroo change already. The Party Bus was, IMO at least, a fun but not meta-defining build. Why kill that?

I am not sure that Zuckuss on the party bus is really 100% dead. With inspiring recruit the stress becomes from him becomes manageable. Though I need to playtest a few things to see if that really is at least tier 2.

2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Necessary sacrifice, much like how the Deadeye change caught a few builds for ships that were mostly innocent of the wolfpack kind of abuse. There were ways to make Dengaroo-style Zuckuss abuse work without Manaroo and with only a minor loss of potency, and in fact I was starting to see them show up locally even before the nerf. Stopping it all cold was the only way to make sure Zuckuss wouldn't be a sleeping time bomb that would have to dealt with again in future.

Meanwhile Zuckuss was replaced by R4-B11 on other builds just fine. K4, R4

45 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Meanwhile Zuckuss was replaced by R4-B11 on other builds just fine. K4, R4

At least that requires a 6 point investment, you have to declare your target in advance via the target lock, and you can only do it once a round. As opposed to 1 point, on anyone, as many times as you like.

On 5/8/2017 at 4:33 PM, Lightrock said:

I said it several times already and I suppose I'll say it again: imperials are out of options right now.

Back when I started playing X-wing, empire had 2 main archetypes to choose from:

- jousting (TIE swarms)

- arc dodging - interceptor/vader/phantom with or without palp shuttle

Swarms were killed by power creep. I've seen it for the first time in the finals of the spanish SoS last year. Very well flown swarm faced off against (surprise surprise) Dengar + Tel and Dengar just obliterated TIEs with his revenge shots. Ever since we've had such an increase in potency of attacks, that TIEs just get 1 shotted before they can do anything. They simply lose their critical mass way too early into the match and their firepower is no longer sufficient to punch through the defenses of ships these days.

Interceptors (and Inquisitor) on the other hand were wiped out of the meta by the Sabine crew. With bomber Miranda being as popular as she is right now, taking something like Soontir to a large tournament is like playing a russian roulette. Sooner or later you're gonna lose the match before it has even begun because one bombing run will knock out your main combatant.

Phantoms used to do somewhat better because they stand a better chance of evading the bombs (still not easy though!) but Kylo crew counters them about as hard as Sabine counters interceptors. We had one player with Kylo/Phantom in the top 16 (yay!) but he was lucky not to get paired with something like PS10 Kylo RAC on the way or he'd lose bad.

As a result, for months now imperials were forced to use the only fighters that were sturdy enough not to get blown up by bombs right away and had enough offense/defense to go toe to toe with other ships. That is they were forced to fly defenders, and - once lightweight frame appeared - TIE/sfs (mostly Quickdraw due to his ability to survive by discouraging shooting him in the first place). These used to work well enough to keep them at the top tables, especially when backed by Palp, but it made imperial meta stale and one-dimensional for the entirety of the last season.

And now that both Palp and x7 have been nerfed imperials are just out of options. They can't go back to arc-dodgers because of Sabine. They can no longer outjoust jumpmasters and swarms are no longer competitive. I guess we're gonna wait till TIE Aggressor comes out and we get a mass quadruple imperial TLTs on the tables... What joy!

Why can't you play X7's and Palp? I know what the "nerfs" are, I know how they have affected the respective abilities and the defensive capability of a 3 att, 3 agl, 3 hull, 3 shield ship which essentially got a free evade every round (before it was changed to getting a free evade every round as long as you aren't stressed).

But why, can't you fly it anymore?

Imperials certainly have reduced options, but x7 Defenders are still strong and the TIE/sf is your new best friend.

Quote

...am I nuts?

No, just off the mark I believe.

Imperials could go toe to toe against JM5Ks due to being hard to kill that is true, which was about the only thing that made them viable in a Scum dominated meta (which we're still in btw).

Remove that ability and you're looking at the overall game state as it was at worlds.

The issue is not that Imperials are bad in any way, the issue is that they are being trounced by Scum and arc-dodgers have become weak due to the lousy turret mechanics (and abundance of TLTs).

The exact opposite of what it was last year (rebels being largely absent from the meta due to alpha striking JM5Ks)

9 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Imperials certainly have reduced options, but x7 Defenders are still strong and the TIE/sf is your new best friend.

Giving the empire an X-Wing ain't really that helpfully, even when LF does seem to help.
And while x7 defenders are still strong, they get now shut down by stress. Remember that they are an overpriced base which the titled tried to compensate. As others have said, this might be the reason why triple defenders stopped working and a single one still can contribute reasonable well to a list. The Commonwealth Defenders at the other hand died with Palpatine for the most part, relegated to tier 2 if even that.

What the empire imo is currently lacking is a solid support piece and/or more brut force. Brute force was taken away with the X7 nerf, support had been so far usually just Palpatine. Even just adding a strong Palpatine carrier ship would change things (poor Lambda still), but the decimator is problematic as Palp carrier while the Lambda is obsolete and the Upsilon is to expensive as support.

My table experience at the weekend was that my Quickdraw/Backdraft/Vessery list came 2nd at the tournament, losing the final to the Dengar that won Worlds but only losing 4 ships all day outside of that game.

Now, obviously a GNK tournament is not Worlds, but there were good players and squads in that room and my Imperial list was a match for the Mindlinked Jumpmasters I met.

9 minutes ago, SOTL said:

My table experience at the weekend was that my Quickdraw/Backdraft/Vessery list came 2nd at the tournament, losing the final to the Dengar that won Worlds but only losing 4 ships all day outside of that game.

Now, obviously a GNK tournament is not Worlds, but there were good players and squads in that room and my Imperial list was a match for the Mindlinked Jumpmasters I met.

My table experience at the weekend had 4 X-Wing take the 1st place. GNK things. Alpha strike melts your list, turrets eat you alive, smaller tournaments with just 4 rounds have to luxury that you can get lucky and avoid the counters, something which nearly never happens on the bigger events, one quad TLT list and you chance to make the cut becomes slimm.

I played and beat plenty of alpha strikers. Quad TLT is almost certainly a problem, I might fancy my chances against a Ghost TLT.

3 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I played and beat plenty of alpha strikers. Quad TLT is almost certainly a problem, I might fancy my chances against a Ghost TLT.

That alpha strike did not bother you is odd, you have less firepower than double tap defenders while being less tanky. Now table tap defenders are supposed to work okish right now too …

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

That alpha strike did not bother you is odd, you have less firepower than double tap defenders while being less tanky. Now table tap defenders are supposed to work okish right now too …

I think it's playstyle, I was using three big rocks and creating dense fields then working them quite hard on positioning for the engagement.

I lost to the Dengar/Bossk in the final but it wasn't really due to alpha striking, I'd controlled that very well and took minimal damage. Maybe took me a turn too long to kill Bossk and start on Dengar. Plus that Worlds Dengar is MEAN.

The problem isn't with Palp's nerf or X7 nerf (both were pretty OP) but with the cost of the jm5k.

3 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I think it's playstyle, I was using three big rocks and creating dense fields then working them quite hard on positioning for the engagement.

I lost to the Dengar/Bossk in the final but it wasn't really due to alpha striking, I'd controlled that very well and took minimal damage. Maybe took me a turn too long to kill Bossk and start on Dengar. Plus that Worlds Dengar is MEAN.

Bossk/Boba should be able to remove Vessery in a single turn of fire. Torp scouts can still do that as well.

Just now, spacelion said:

The problem isn't with Palp's nerf or X7 nerf (both were pretty OP) but with the cost of the jm5k.

Remove the jm5k from the equation and empire is still pretty down as Scum Mindlink Ace list still beat save and sound imperial aces while rebel regen should explode.
Besides, Fenn Rau, Palob and Ventress work like a charm too, no need to have the jmk5. Scum is pretty diverse in its mindlink list options.

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

Bossk/Boba should be able to remove Vessery in a single turn of fire. Torp scouts can still do that as well.

Except that I didn't let that happen. Either against the Dengar/Bossk I faced or the two Torpedo Scout lists I beat 100-33.

39 minutes ago, boomaster said:

Why can't you play X7's and Palp. I know what the "nerfs" are, I know how they have affected the respective abilities and the defensive capability of a 3 att, 3 agl, 3 hull, 3 shield ship which essentially got a free evade every round (before it was changed to getting a free evade every round as long as you aren't stressed).

But why, can't you fly it anymore?

Oh you can fly it alright, it's just no longer competitive at the highest level, as Worlds have shown in crystal clarity.

Just compare the number of defender's in last year's top 16 (nine) with this year's (zero). There was one defender at 31st place and then one in 41st. No list with multiple defenders even made it to day 2 (as far as I know from the incomplete data we have). By comparison, double VCX actually have managed the feat...

Some folks seem to imply that nerf didn't matter that much, people just got scared of it, acted irrationally and stopped playing a perfectly fine ship. Well, that line of argument might hold some merit in small communities of players but not at Worlds. There's just way too many players from way too many metas. You can bet at least some of them will stick to their defenders - if only because that's what they've been playing for the entirety of the last season. If neither of them managed to even get to day 2, let alone in the vicinity of top 16, it means their fighters were underpeforming. I see it in my local meta too. Defenders are still quite widespread because people have no idea what else to fly as imperials. They just don't perform as well as they used to.

I've played defenders very little since last fall so I can only theorize why the nerf hit them as hard as it did but I can make an educated guess based on my observations. I think that the defender's main problem is how incredibly bad their dial is when you take the white k-turn out of the equation. It's seriously one of the very worst in the game. Now if you add the fact that defenders only become worth their price once free evades from x7 kick in, their effective movement options become very limited. One consequence of that is the general predictability od defenders, tempered only by how effective k-turn tends to be even when the opponent sees it coming. Another is that if the k-turn is blocked and the other 3+ speed maneuvers are also either blocked or just nonsensical, defenders are in a bind. Sadly, without access to boost and with relatively low PS defenders struggle to position themselves in a way that would let them avoid these issues. That's especially true against good players, who will specifically maneuver to exploit these weaknesses. Before the nerf, defenders would compensate by deliberately bumping when no other option was available. It was usually suboptimal but thanks to free evade they could at least survive until they had free space to k-turn again. Now whenever this happens they're in a terrible position and often just die.

The second problem is that a large number of rebel players these days take either stresshog or Braylen to hinder the mindlink lists. Incidentally these ships are also devastating to defenders, who have a hard time shedding stress. They're not quite manuevarable enough to dodge the arcs of stress ships and their action economy now gets shut down completely when they get stressed. Overall this is enough to push them below the curve in large competitive events.

8 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Oh you can fly it alright, it's just no longer competitive at the highest level, as Worlds have shown in crystal clarity.

Just compare the number of defender's in last year's top 16 (nine) with this year's (zero). There was one defender at 31st place and then one in 41st. No list with multiple defenders even made it to day 2 (as far as I know from the incomplete data we have). By comparison, double VCX actually have managed the feat...

Some folks seem to imply that nerf didn't matter that much, people just got scared of it, acted irrationally and stopped playing a perfectly fine ship. Well, that line of argument might hold some merit in small communities of players but not at Worlds. There's just way too many players from way too many metas. You can bet at least some of them will stick to their defenders - if only because that's what they've been playing for the entirety of the last season. If neither of them managed to even get to day 2, let alone in the vicinity of top 16, it means their fighters were underpeforming. I see it in my local meta too. Defenders are still quite widespread because people have no idea what else to fly as imperials. They just don't perform as well as they used to.

I've played defenders very little since last fall so I can only theorize why the nerf hit them as hard as it did but I can make an educated guess based on my observations. I think that the defender's main problem is how incredibly bad their dial is when you take the white k-turn out of the equation. It's seriously one of the very worst in the game. Now if you add the fact that defenders only become worth their price once free evades from x7 kick in, their effective movement options become very limited. One consequence of that is the general predictability od defenders, tempered only by how effective k-turn tends to be even when the opponent sees it coming. Another is that if the k-turn is blocked and the other 3+ speed maneuvers are also either blocked or just nonsensical, defenders are in a bind. Sadly, without access to boost and with relatively low PS defenders struggle to position themselves in a way that would let them avoid these issues. That's especially true against good players, who will specifically maneuver to exploit these weaknesses. Before the nerf, defenders would compensate by deliberately bumping when no other option was available. It was usually suboptimal but thanks to free evade they could at least survive until they had free space to k-turn again. Now whenever this happens they're in a terrible position and often just die.

The second problem is that a large number of rebel players these days take either stresshog or Braylen to hinder the mindlink lists. Incidentally these ships are also devastating to defenders, who have a hard time shedding stress. They're not quite manuevarable enough to dodge the arcs of stress ships and their action economy now gets shut down completely when they get stressed. Overall this is enough to push them below the curve in large competitive events.

How many Imp Lists were in the whole tournament?

So before the nerf, it was balanced that a group of ships could bump each other to avoid poor positional choices but still gain evade actions?

I won't disagree that defenders were over costed before the titles were released, probably by a coupe of points. But under and over costing seems to be an issue since launch, I'd like to fly Star Vipers competitively, but you can't. Not repeatedly.

http://meta-wing.com/ships?ranking_start=2017-05-01&ranking_end=2017-05-10&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=1&

In the listjuggler data Meta-Wing works out the TIE Defender is the 17th best ship from Worlds results. By sheer coincidence Vessery is the top Defender pilot and also ranked 17th in the pilots.

1 minute ago, boomaster said:

How many Imp Lists were in the whole tournament?

So before the nerf, it was balanced that a group of ships could bump each other to avoid poor positional choices but still gain evade actions?

I won't disagree that defenders were over costed before the titles were released, probably by a coupe of points. But under and over costing seems to be an issue since launch, I'd like to fly Star Vipers competitively, but you can't. Not repeatedly.

No idea how many there were total. Unfortunately I couldn't make the trip and I've only found data regarding day 2.

As for defender's balance - they usually didn't bump each other, they bumped the enemy. It usually meant at least one enemy wouldn't be able to shoot them and even if they could, they still had their evade. This helped defenders survive the situations where their restricted movement options left them no good choices.

And defenders were overcosted by more than a couple of points. If that was the case, x7 price reduction alone would make them competitive and apparently they're not. They became competitive because of x7's price reduction AND action economy. Then they became essential when Sabine started murdering all the imperial ships with low HP. And now they're not quite good enough anymore when their action economy is no longer assured but Sabine still murders most of the other imperial ships. Hence this entire thread.

10 minutes ago, boomaster said:

I won't disagree that defenders were over costed before the titles were released, probably by a coupe of points. But under and over costing seems to be an issue since launch, I'd like to fly Star Vipers competitively, but you can't. Not repeatedly.

Before Rau and Ventress "Guri, Palob, Manaroo" was actually a quite good mindlink list. ;-)

9 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Before Rau and Ventress "Guri, Palob, Manaroo" was actually a quite good mindlink list. ;-)

As long as you kept Guri in knife fight range for the extra focus. But, by your own admission.. they now aren't competitive.

2 minutes ago, boomaster said:

As long as you kept Guri in kinfe fight range for the extra focus.

I did not say easy list, quite strong winning or making at least the cut in a few regionals and nationals.
Range management with PS5 can be tricky.

edit: And range management is essential in that list with Palob AND Guri as you need to steal that focus token to make the best out of that sensor jammer.

On 08 May 2017 at 6:36 PM, Waaaaaampa said:

Dude, this is an insult. Are you saying that people who are Imperial flyers aren't trying to find other lists? I made my way to Deep Core by not flying Palp ONCE in the Vassal league. Not once.

It's this kind of insulting nonsensical forum commentary, especially from 'known' guys, that is going to turn this game into 40k, with all of those problems.

No, I'm saying that Imperial lists right now do not have as many guarantees as the safer (Mindlink for example) options do, which means fewer people are willing to take them to high-stakes tournaments. To my mind, that's the more logical conclusion than 'Imperials are dead competitively', which is reminiscent of 'sky falling' absurdity.

Nice of you to be just as insulting as you accuse me of being. And the idea that X-Wing is even close to the absolute trainwreck that is current 40k is laughable

29 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

No, I'm saying that Imperial lists right now do not have as many guarantees as the safer (Mindlink for example) options do, which means fewer people are willing to take them to high-stakes tournaments. To my mind, that's the more logical conclusion than 'Imperials are dead competitively', which is reminiscent of 'sky falling' absurdity.

Nice of you to be just as insulting as you accuse me of being. And the idea that X-Wing is even close to the absolute trainwreck that is current 40k is laughable

Well, you have one guy in this topic saying that he's refusing games to other factions due to their supposed OPness, and that reminds me of the start of the 7th ed era. Not saying it is like that, but still Imps have it pretty bad at the moment.

I'm still lucky enough that due to the relative cheapness of X-Wing I was able to ****** up a rebel and scum lot on the second hand market to play while FFG decides what to do with the faction